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Getting these type of drum sounds. Dynamics Plugins
Old 21st August 2007
  #1
Gear Head
 

Getting these type of drum sounds.

Hi all,

Without asking how much you don´t like this (linked) music, let´s just ask for any recording and mixing advisory for extremely powerful drums (like these), be it with or without drummachines. I would value that a whole lot.

Here are some youtube vids and I am mainly concerned with drumsounds, roughly how to approach the end product.

I wouldn´t ask you to listen to all of this stuff...you´ll get the idea after a while.
stike

Fastforward to 1:20 where the drums kick in.
YouTube - Ich will=

Drums start at 0:34
YouTube - Sisters of Mercy - Dominion

Drums start at 1:16
YouTube - The Sisters of Mercy -- More (BLOODY GREAT!)

Drums start at 0:19
YouTube - MINISTRY- N.W.O.=

Drums start at 1:12
YouTube - Peace Love & Pitbulls - Caveman=

Drums start at 0:16
YouTube - Nine Inch Nails - The Hand That Feeds

Drums start at 0:31
YouTube - Ministry - Burning inside

The drums kicks in at 0:11
YouTube - Revolting Cocks-Fire engine

And so, the common denominator is very punchy or for lack of a better word, aggressive, drums. Being novice I´d appreciate some hints of what to look for. I suppose it is not only effects and processing, but also the original core sounds.
Thank you!
Robert
Old 21st August 2007
  #2
Gear Head
 

Knew you´d be bored.
Old 21st August 2007
  #3
The answer is different in each case.

Many of those sounds are samples/drum machines others were recorded in a vary large space. There's reverb, but not a lot of effects.

If you want to record a kit and mix it sound like that, start with a good drummer and good kit, with new heads that have been tuned carefully. Use a mix of closed, mid and far mics. Spend a lot of time checking phase which will be the bigges factor in getting a big sound.

Compress the close mics with slow attacks or not at all. Compress the far mics with fast attacks and fast releases to bring up room ambience. Try a few expereimtal mics where you put them in places the seem illogical and then distort them.

You may find an SPL Transient Designer easier and more effective to use that a compressor. Definitely get the 4 channel version.
Old 21st August 2007
  #4
Gear Maniac
 

you mean drum sounds that sound like you're playing them through am radio?

that's all i can hear through youtube.

however, just as a poster above mentioned it seems like you are more interested in the production of drum sounds first?

the drummer, kit, tuning, heads, selection of room and then engineer and micing, all before the mixing.
Old 21st August 2007
  #5
Lives for gear
 
BLueROom's Avatar
 

Unfortunately there is no easy answer. There are lots of different ways to get those drum sounds, but the one common thread amoung all of them is ideal situations. Great drummer, great drums, great tuning, great engineer, etc... The EASIEST way to get these sounds in your recordings is going to be with the use of samples to augment or completely replace the originals... and I'm not just saying that because I own a sample company. In a lot of the examples above that is exactly what they are doing.
Old 21st August 2007
  #6
Gear Head
 

[quote=Mike Caffrey;1450662]The answer is different in each case.

Many of those sounds are samples/drum machines others were recorded in a vary large space. There's reverb, but not a lot of effects....quote]

Thanks for the advisory, I appreciate that.

Well, I am doing pre-production stuff at home and would like to dial in as close as I can to what I´d like to achieve in the end. I´ve recorded stuff in studio before and it didn´t really achieve what I had in mind.
So instead of paying for not getting what you want, I figured I´d better learn some of it myself. The music I´m doing is slightly in the neighbourhood of what I posted. The other option is to find somebody who surely can get this "right" but that may be a tad over my current budget, we´ll see. I´ve used drummachines but I´ve not nailed what I envision, yet. Any suggestion for particular drummachines or sample libraries?

Thank you,
Rob
Old 21st August 2007
  #7
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLueROom View Post
Unfortunately there is no easy answer. There are lots of different ways to get those drum sounds, but the one common thread amoung all of them is ideal situations. Great drummer, great drums, great tuning, great engineer, etc... The EASIEST way to get these sounds in your recordings is going to be with the use of samples to augment or completely replace the originals... and I'm not just saying that because I own a sample company. In a lot of the examples above that is exactly what they are doing.
I know for a fact that Sisters, Ministry, Revolting Cocks were using machines and/or samples. Ive used such as well but as I said, didn´t get the sound I was looking for.

I´ll take a look at your samples.

Thanks
Robert
Old 22nd August 2007
  #8
Gear Addict
 
seb37000's Avatar
 

If you want the sound of the music you put up samples is the only way to go, not really what I would call natural drum sounds...., but should not be to hard to get if you get the right samples, but thats maybe the hard part.

Last edited by seb37000; 22nd August 2007 at 12:09 AM.. Reason: typo mistake
Old 22nd August 2007
  #9
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by seb37000 View Post
If you want the sound of the music you put up samples is the only way to go, not really what I would call natural drum sounds...., but should not be to hard to get if you get the right samples, but thats maybe the hard part.
"not really what I would call natural drum sounds"
Exactly! For this genre that´s a good thing.
However, as you said, it´s hard finding the appropriate sample + whatever needs to happen to it. If the ambition was about natural sounding, it would be rather easy, there´s so much of that. Billions of sounds for hip hop, rap, techno but for this avenue it´s kinda tricky. Nobody´s adressed it "plug and play" though these genre´s sell quite a bit. On the other hand, maybe everything shouldn´t be plug and play either....
Old 22nd August 2007
  #10
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

yes, lots of samples and grooveboxes.

also, lots of the right kind of compression, most of it very fast. compression on the drum channels, compression on the drum sub, compression on the mix.

be warned, you'll *never* achieve these kinds of sounds without the help of a talented mastering engineer. additional mastering compression and the ubiquitous L2/L3 for the final splat-up-against-the-brick-wall vibe are essential for what you're hearing.

you will save yourself months and months of agony and grief if you find a local engineer who can pull off this kind of sound and book 4 hours with him. let him know in advance your intention is to learn as much as it is to mix. bring your tracks in, ask questions humbly and tactfully, and watch him work his magic.

recognize that there are two different agendas at work inside of you: to learn the tricks of audio engineering, and to write and complete songs. trust me when i tell you that pursuit of the former will seriously compromise your ability to be productive with the latter. not only will your time and energies be diverted from music generation, your self-critical circuits will kick into overdrive, and your perspective on what sounds good will scatter with the winds.

always be aware of where your priorities are, and monitor how your choices impact your progress. good luck.


gregoire
del
ubk
.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #11
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
yes, lots of samples and grooveboxes.

also, lots of the right kind of compression, most of it very fast. compression on the drum channels, compression on the drum sub, compression on the mix.

be warned, you'll *never* achieve these kinds of sounds without the help of a talented mastering engineer. additional mastering compression and the ubiquitous L2/L3 for the final splat-up-against-the-brick-wall vibe are essential for what you're hearing.

you will save yourself months and months of agony and grief if you find a local engineer who can pull off this kind of sound and book 4 hours with him. let him know in advance your intention is to learn as much as it is to mix. bring your tracks in, ask questions humbly and tactfully, and watch him work his magic.

recognize that there are two different agendas at work inside of you: to learn the tricks of audio engineering, and to write and complete songs. trust me when i tell you that pursuit of the former will seriously compromise your ability to be productive with the latter. not only will your time and energies be diverted from music generation, your self-critical circuits will kick into overdrive, and your perspective on what sounds good will scatter with the winds.

always be aware of where your priorities are, and monitor how your choices impact your progress. good luck.


gregoire
del
ubk
.
Thanks for the words of wisdom. I already feel how much I´ve spent too much time trying to figure these things out. I don´t want to have the feeling of weeping again after having gone through a studio that didn´t understand what I´d like the stuff to be. This kind of music is though very soundshaped and fx driven, try doing any of them on an accoustic guitar and it´s not going to sound even remotely like the recorded song. I´ll be doing some researching for mixers, engineers and do some interviewing before hiring, that´s the mistake I probably made before.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #12
Gear Head
 

Wanna earn a greater place in heaven?
Just point me to an appropriate sample lib thing for the type of drums discussed in this thread.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #13
Lives for gear
 

A lot of those drums sounds are what I would call "white noisey". No doubt samples and machines were used. But obviously the same tricks used to make those samples can be used to process a live snare track.

Analog drum machines often use white or pink noise to create those dense snare type sounds. Some engineers used to gate white/pink noise with the real snare to add some bite.

These days we have convolution reverbs, and it's possible to make nasty dense "reverb" tails out of noise. Even an off-tune am radio could be used to generate noise, and either gate or sample it. Compressing, distorting, eq'ing it can add to the texture.

I prefer the more natural sounding reverbs. Room mics, compressed, distorted, eq'd can get a similar "white noise" quality. Amps or sims can be used to brutalise snares and/or their reverb tails.

Artificial reverbs of all types can be treated the same way. I actually think these types of aggressive snares are really easy to make, and really easy to over-do and make them too agressive.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #14
Old 22nd August 2007
  #15
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post

recognize that there are two different agendas at work inside of you: to learn the tricks of audio engineering, and to write and complete songs. trust me when i tell you that pursuit of the former will seriously compromise your ability to be productive with the latter. not only will your time and energies be diverted from music generation, your self-critical circuits will kick into overdrive, and your perspective on what sounds good will scatter with the winds.

always be aware of where your priorities are, and monitor how your choices impact your progress. good luck.


gregoire
del
ubk
.
This is probably some of THE BEST advice I have EVER heard! EVER! GREAT insight!
Old 22nd August 2007
  #16
Gear Maniac
 
CaptCrunch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casar View Post
Wanna earn a greater place in heaven?
Just point me to an appropriate sample lib thing for the type of drums discussed in this thread.

The drum samples are actually multisamples where 2-3 sounds (or more) are layered with each layer "doctored" to some degree. An eventide harmonizer distortion patch layered and gated on the snare is often used for sizzle and detuned for fatness. It isn't as simple as finding a single sample to achieve the individual sounds.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #17
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
The answer is different in each case.

Many of those sounds are samples/drum machines others were recorded in a vary large space. There's reverb, but not a lot of effects.

If you want to record a kit and mix it sound like that, start with a good drummer and good kit, with new heads that have been tuned carefully. Use a mix of closed, mid and far mics. Spend a lot of time checking phase which will be the bigges factor in getting a big sound.

Compress the close mics with slow attacks or not at all. Compress the far mics with fast attacks and fast releases to bring up room ambience. Try a few expereimtal mics where you put them in places the seem illogical and then distort them.

You may find an SPL Transient Designer easier and more effective to use that a compressor. Definitely get the 4 channel version.
+1

You definitely took the words out of my mouth

The only think I'd add is: use layer compression. Don't add all the compression you need on single drums and amb/OH mics but as far as you are adding pieces together process every buss you create with a light compression. This will lead you to a more natural sound, I mean compression is still there but it's not sooooo evident.

Another thing I do when I want the "snap" is to add a little bit of peak limiting to the drum bass (a little bit...don't smash the hell out of it)
Almost a must if you record rock or heavy stuff.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #18
Gear Head
 

Pain.

I appreciate all the feedback, really do, at least I now have a basis for discussion and argument whereas I barely knew what a compressor was back when I went to the studio the first time. Given the general "there is no one drum sample", there must though be a demand for a quick assembly solution, som prefab sets for our particular ballpark of sonic muscle.

I listened to some of those drumagog library things and there I thought they made a really good job, although it was geared for more traditional rock, pop and metal. Your typical dry standard sounds makes me nearly retch because they don´t inspire you as easily. In our music it is a bit like " you don´t want to sound like the "little guy" in the club". Sounds loaded but I think you get it.
And as pointed out by others here, you don´t want to overdo things either.

Having said that, if anybody know of somebody who could be great (producer, mixer, engineer, collaborator,) with this sort of music, please feel free to give a pointer!

When I make other forms of music, more traditional rock, this topic is no big deal.

Salute,
R
Old 22nd August 2007
  #19
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
I'm 90% sure that all the drums you've posted are not just samples, but also programmed.

There might, in the case of NIN... be some live drums mixed in to...maybe even as the "core" of the sound, but in those cases they're usually not using standard micing/processing techniques and end up cutting & looping parts around...

But Minsitry & all... Very much programmed.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #20
Lives for gear
 
firby's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
yes, lots of samples and grooveboxes.

also, lots of the right kind of compression, most of it very fast. compression on the drum channels, compression on the drum sub, compression on the mix.

be warned, you'll *never* achieve these kinds of sounds without the help of a talented mastering engineer. additional mastering compression and the ubiquitous L2/L3 for the final splat-up-against-the-brick-wall vibe are essential for what you're hearing.

you will save yourself months and months of agony and grief if you find a local engineer who can pull off this kind of sound and book 4 hours with him. let him know in advance your intention is to learn as much as it is to mix. bring your tracks in, ask questions humbly and tactfully, and watch him work his magic.

recognize that there are two different agendas at work inside of you: to learn the tricks of audio engineering, and to write and complete songs. trust me when i tell you that pursuit of the former will seriously compromise your ability to be productive with the latter. not only will your time and energies be diverted from music generation, your self-critical circuits will kick into overdrive, and your perspective on what sounds good will scatter with the winds.

always be aware of where your priorities are, and monitor how your choices impact your progress. good luck.


gregoire
del
ubk
.


Post of the year Nominated by Firby!
Old 22nd August 2007
  #21
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casar View Post
Wanna earn a greater place in heaven?
Just point me to an appropriate sample lib thing for the type of drums discussed in this thread.
have you tried the 8bk kit by BFD? its processed drum machine sounds for the most part.

that thin 80's drum machine snare with reverb isn't hard to reproduce, its just that the samples have been abandoned. im sure you can find them somewhere.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #22
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by melodic_disaster View Post
have you tried the 8bk kit by BFD? its processed drum machine sounds for the most part.

that thin 80's drum machine snare with reverb isn't hard to reproduce, its just that the samples have been abandoned. im sure you can find them somewhere.
That kit appears to be discontinued but thanks for the tip, some of those sounds could be useful with the mentioned layering tech. Maybe I can locate a copy of it somewhere,

/R
Old 22nd August 2007
  #23
Lives for gear
 

You would probably love the old Alesis HR16B - the Black one.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #24
Gear Maniac
 
contempo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post

be warned, you'll *never* achieve these kinds of sounds without the help of a talented mastering engineer. additional mastering compression and the ubiquitous L2/L3 for the final splat-up-against-the-brick-wall vibe are essential for what you're hearing.
what exactly does a MASTERING engineer have to do with getting drum sounds???

is the concept of "tracking engineer" or "recordist" truely dead, final nails in the coffin? are we now as an industry looking to mastering to as the be-all end-all of processing?

20 years ago it was "fix it in the mix" now it's all up to the guy who's cutting the glass master for duplication???

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