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MD421 vs SM7B on toms (& other sources) Dynamic Microphones
Old 21st August 2007
  #31
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Awesome link! Thanks!
Old 21st August 2007
  #32
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andsonic's Avatar
 

Way back in the dawn of the computer age, there was a program called Allen Sides' Mic Cabinet where Mr Sides took you thru the Ocean Way Mic Cabinet (with mic placements and sound clips). When I heard the c12 sample I was hooked, lots of boom and attack. I've successfully used the C12 and its variants since then. I highly recommend the AKG 414 as a good "C12" replacement for Toms.

I have also used the Rode NT3 on toms recently. I liked the tone a lot.
Old 21st August 2007
  #33
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Using condensers on the toms doesn't cause issues with 'crowding'?

Right now, I use a SDC on my snare and my overheads are LDCs. I gate the hell out of the snare mic, otherwise (given a condenser's natural sensitivity) it picks up the entire kit, regardless of placement. Do you gate the tom mics too?

If I were to use condensers all over the kit, my drum mixes would sound very crowded. Perhaps that illustrates how much more I need to learn. I just don't think I would be skilled enough to handle that (without gating every mic).


Quote:
Originally Posted by andsonic View Post
Way back in the dawn of the computer age, there was a program called Allen Sides' Mic Cabinet where Mr Sides took you thru the Ocean Way Mic Cabinet (with mic placements and sound clips). When I heard the c12 sample I was hooked, lots of boom and attack. I've successfully used the C12 and its variants since then. I highly recommend the AKG 414 as a good "C12" replacement for Toms.

I have also used the Rode NT3 on toms recently. I liked the tone a lot.
Old 21st August 2007
  #34
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imdrecordings's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by manthe View Post
I've had an interest in the PR30 and PR40 for a while now too. Have you ever compared them to the 421s?
I have.
The 421's have a roll off. Which can be real cool.
The PR40 is much clearer.
421's sounds cool but the PR40 has so much more air, that I don't have to really do any boosting in the high-end. It makes a cool kick mic, too. But you'll have to pull it away from the kick a bit.
I like both mics.

@ War
M179-
aren't these discontinued?
Could this be an eBay buy?
I've seen M177's. Same thing?

Quote:
MANTHE=Using condensers on the toms doesn't cause issues with 'crowding'?
Hell no!! 414 is one of the best tom mics out there.
Old 21st August 2007
  #35
Here for the gear
 

I did a drum session yesterday and I had some mics around, so here are some samples. The drum is a 12" Gretsch with genera G2 head on top and some moongel to control the ring (more of a rock type of tuning). The signal path was: mic - ISA428 with AD converter.

The SM7 is pretty clunky. The 421 and the ATM23 both have a lot more tone. Setting up the mics, the SM7 seemed to take up a lot of room and was getting close to the edge of my cymbal. The 421, which I just got last week for $200 used, had to taped to a stand since the clip is broken.
Attached Files
File Type: aif SM7.aif (1.20 MB, 352 views) File Type: aif 421.aif (999.0 KB, 324 views) File Type: aif atm23.aif (1.38 MB, 350 views)
Old 21st August 2007
  #36
Yeah I never liked 421's I think the bleed sounds nasty. I now use Cad M179's and I really like the atm450's!!!! They are growing on me Warren.
Old 21st August 2007
  #37
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manthe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by imdrecordings View Post

Hell no!! 414 is one of the best tom mics out there.
I don't doubt that it is fantastic sounding, track by track. But, in terms of having condensers all over the place and basically having the 'entire kit' in every track (unless you gate each mic) would seem like a mixing nightmare to me.

I fight constantly to isolate my close mics as much as possible...using mics with great rear rejection, using Auralex Aural Xpanders, etc. That would be counter-productive for my style of drum mic'ing....I think.

Unless the gates were good enough to capture the great tone and gate out the rest of the kit. I have 2 Keepex II gates that I LOVE. I usually use one on the snare condenser.

Don't get me wrong. I think it is a great idea and probably sounds great. If I were creating a samples CD, I would certainly use a mic like that on a tom. But for a regular mix, I'd be a'skeert to use the 414s!!
Old 21st August 2007
  #38
Jai guru deva om
 
warhead's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by imdrecordings View Post
@ War
M179-
aren't these discontinued?
Could this be an eBay buy?
I've seen M177's. Same thing?
The M179 is not discontinued, don't know where you heard that one.

The M177 is the cardioid only version.

War
Old 21st August 2007
  #39
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imdrecordings's Avatar
 

My bad, War.
I assumed it was, because MF does not stock it.
Old 21st August 2007
  #40
Jai guru deva om
 
warhead's Avatar
 

Aaaaaaaaaah the ol' "it only exists if Musicians Friend or eBay have it" type eh?

War heh
Old 21st August 2007
  #41
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imdrecordings's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by warhead View Post
Aaaaaaaaaah the ol' "it only exists if Musicians Friend or eBay have it" type eh?

War heh
No, not really. I work there. heh
Old 23rd August 2007
  #42
Here for the gear
 

So have we all come to the conclusion that M179's are great tom mics? I was fixing to actually buy the 421's until I came across this post, but I think I really want to go with M179's now.. They are a little cheaper too!
Old 23rd August 2007
  #43
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We can at least say that the SM7 doesn't make a great tom mic. Good for a lot of things but not toms.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #44
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blackcom's Avatar
 

CAD M179 are THE mics to get for toms, period!

I've tried 604, D2/D4, 421 , Beta98, AE3000, ATM25, Opus87/88 and some others and it's really a no-brainer..

...the depth, the attack, the body...wow!

Also, if wanted...the M179 can be set to hyper-cardio for less bleed...this works really well. thumbsup
Old 23rd August 2007
  #45
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Fishmed's Avatar
Not to muddy the waters more, but has anyone tried the modified 57?
Old 23rd August 2007
  #46
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imdrecordings's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishmed View Post
Not to muddy the waters more, but has anyone tried the modified 57?
Oh ya! Thanks.
I forgot about that Mod.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #47
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manthe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcom View Post
CAD M179 are THE mics to get for toms, period!

I've tried 604, D2/D4, 421 , Beta98, AE3000, ATM25, Opus87/88 and some others and it's really a no-brainer..

...the depth, the attack, the body...wow!

Also, if wanted...the M179 can be set to hyper-cardio for less bleed...this works really well. thumbsup
I don't see the Heil PR30 or 40 in that list. I am going to demo them this week...I'm hoping for a silver bullet. From everything I read, these things are AMAZING tom mics (and pretty fair for guitar amps too).

I'm going to hunt up some M179s to try as well. I'd prefer to find them locally so I don't have to deal with shipping time delays. I think there is a retailer across town that carries CAD stuff.

Anyone in the Orlando, FL area know for sure?
Old 23rd August 2007
  #48
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warhead's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by manthe View Post
Anyone in the Orlando, FL area know for sure?
CAD would know! CAD Professional Microphones / 1 (800) 762-9266

War
Old 23rd August 2007
  #49
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firby's Avatar
 

You guys really make me feel small. Thanks alot guys. One post today --What mic do you use to mic the underside of a snare ? Now you want to mic toms as well.

Gee whiz. I don't mic toms or the underside of the snare. I put up an Apex 205 for a room mic I thought that I was pretty hot with kick (Beta52) Snare (57) and overheads (beyer m160s) plus that room mic. Now everyone is talking about micing the underside of the snare ... the shell of the snare ... a tube condensor a few feet out from the kick drum ... stereo room mics. And micing every damn tom with a 300$ microphone ... top and bottom.

Then they are running them into APIs or pacifica and the Toms into sebatrons and blah blah blah. Then throw every other track into a distressor and blah blah blah.

You guys make me sick.

Sometimes I'll be clever and spot mic the hihats with a beyer m200.

How many tracks are you using for drums ? Are your drummers doing extensive tom intensive beats ? Maybe its the music I play which is more jazz/funk influenced or maybe its because my engineering sucks. Maybe its cause I don't want to pony up 3 bills to mic a rack tom. Alot of drum kits that come into your studios probably dont have rack toms that cost 300$ a piece.

I mean .... damn.

Do you use all of those tracks come mix down ? How long does it take you to throw down your drum part and get an acceptable mix ?

I go and play the part and the drums mix in about an hour or two. If I have to edit then maybe 3 hours max.

Oh and they all go right into the pres on my Trident 24 and .... DONE.

I love hanging with the slutz. You guys are great a wealth of fantasmo info. But just STOP spending so much money. You make me feel like the kid at school that is eating goverment cheese.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #50
Gear Maniac
 
imdrecordings's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by firby View Post

Oh and they all go right into the pres on my Trident 24 and .... DONE.

I love hanging with the slutz. You guys are great a wealth of fantasmo info. But just STOP spending so much money. You make me feel like the kid at school that is eating goverment cheese.
Uh What .... Flip that
Quote:
Originally Posted by firby View Post
modified by imdrecordings

I love hanging with the slutz. You guys are great a wealth of fantasmo info. But just STOP spending so much money. You make me feel like the kid at school that is eating goverment cheese.

Oh and they all go right into the pres on my Trident 24 and .... DONE.
Now that's funny.....
I forgot, Tridents are just crappy, cheap, dinosaur boards full of bad IC chips. That cost next to nothing to keep up and running.
Micing Toms can be a tough one to grasp. late!
Old 24th August 2007
  #51
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BradM's Avatar
If it makes you feal better, Firby, I only use about 7 or 8 tracks for drums.

If you really want to feel bad, go look at that miked up drums thread...the one with pics. I really don't understand how people get through a mix with 20 mics on a kit.

Brad
Old 24th August 2007
  #52
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dokushoka's Avatar
 

Quote:
I really don't understand how people get through a mix with 20 mics on a kit.
I used to say the same thing about not understanding why people need anything more then a 32 channel console...

Now a days, I am constantly using up every single channel on my 32 channel console and wishing I had about 32 channels more!

If you're trying to really go for it, at least in most genres, it takes going a little overboard.
Old 24th August 2007
  #53
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Fishmed's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad McGowan View Post
If it makes you feal better, Firby, I only use about 7 or 8 tracks for drums.

If you really want to feel bad, go look at that miked up drums thread...the one with pics. I really don't understand how people get through a mix with 20 mics on a kit.

Brad
Same here, 7 to 8 mics. I get good enough snare sounds between the OH and the top snare mic.
Old 24th August 2007
  #54
Here for the gear
 

421's are the industry standard. they are awesome on toms. but just like with everything you record, you have to have a good source to get the awesome sounds. also, i always try different mics on everything. you never know what you might like.

if your interested, i have 3 421's i'm looking to sell. they are in great shape with some signs of usage. but it will be a lot cheaper than buying them new.
i think you will like them.
Old 24th August 2007
  #55
Gear Addict
 
C.Judd Karn's Avatar
 

back in black

421's = great toms, lots of mid range and bottom

SM7 = brighter top end, used on toms for back n black (what I read in tape op?)
also great on hat, ac gtr and many other things besides vocal - try it out...can't hurt


C
Old 24th August 2007
  #56
Han
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One more time, the 421's clip sucks. Engineers though are handy guys who can use a small ironsaw:

Old 31st August 2007
  #57
Gear Nut
 

sm7

just to let you know the toms on AC/DC's back in black where recorded with an SM7 on each...

great on vox too
Old 31st August 2007
  #58
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Fishmed's Avatar
What Tom mics were used for M e g a d e t h ' s song "Trust"?
Old 25th October 2016
  #59
Gear Head
I own 4x MD421, and I use those primarily on toms. I've always found that they get a good tom sound. Before I got the MD421s, I used SM57s on toms - I had 8 of them, now have 6. I never really like the way the 57s sounded on the toms, too nasally, not enough bottom.

I also own 2x SM7B, 1x RE20 and 7x Octava mk012. The Octava mics usually end up on overheads, hihat, and acoustic guitars or other acoustic strings, maybe grand piano if my Royer 121 pair is used elsewhere. I have never tried them on the toms! The SM7B mics are generally reserved for live take vocals or bass cab. The RE20 has sometimes been used on floor tom, but usually resides as outside kick mic (with D112 inside.)

So it seems it's time for me to do a tom mic shootout... at least to try out the mk012s and SM7Bs for comparison. I have a client who is a great drummer, but also writes and self-records new age compositions which he brings to me for mixing. Perhaps I trade him an hour for an hour and make this happen.

All that said, a multi-grammy winning engineer came and used my studio for 4 days last week to make a record. He brought a few of his own mics and preamps to complement my collection. He got killer sounds. His tom mics were Sennheiser e602 (normally a kick drum mic.) I checked them out online, and looking at their specs. Interestingly, their frequency response seems to resemble what I normally EQ onto my 421s: boost some bottom end, cut the tubby mid-bass, bring out some presence attack. He ran them into my api preamps. Great sound. However, I'm not sure how much the B&K (now DPA) 130V overheads run with Millenia preamps contributed to that. Holy ****! THOSE sounded good! I want!

I normally use Focusrite ISA preamps for the whole drum kit, reserving my api 3124 for guitars. (12ch ISA428... also 2ch ISA430 which usually are on bass and/or vocals for me.)

He brought the 2ch Millenia for the overheads, 2ch of api with 550b EQs which he used for kick in and snare top, and 2ch of real vintage Neve 1073 which he used on the guitar amp (SM57 and Royer 121) with my B173 pair on 2nd cab with a R121 and a U87 for the guitar room. 2 of my api channels were for toms, the other two for bass - DI and RE20 on the amp cab. My ISA preamps were used for drum room pair (TLM103), hi-hat (some Beyerdynamic dynamic mic that was skinny and looked like a SDC) and kick out (RE20.)

So add Sennheiser e602 to the consideration table!
Old 4th November 2016
  #60
Gear Head
So I did some A/B/C comparisons. I'll organize the files and post a google drive link soon. Very un-scientific... had the drummer play 30 second clips of the same groove with each setup. Did my best to match preamp levels with the different mics, further adjusted with clip gain. I had to work quickly.

I tried 3 different tom mics with two setups.

Tom mics auditioned with each setup:
mk12 (non-modded), SM7B, MD421.

Setup A: Jolly-modded matched Octava mk-12 overheads spaced pair, Jolly mk12 hihat. D112 inside kick, RE-20 outside kick, SM57 snare top, Sennheiser e906 snare under, TLM-103 pair in XY for room, captured both dry and through a pair of distressors. All preamps were Focusrite ISA.

Setup B: Royer 121 overheads spaced pair, SM57 hihat. D112 inside kick, RE-20 outside kick, SM57 snare top, Sennheiser e906 snare under, TLM-103 pair in XY for room, captured both dry and through a pair of distressors. All preamps were Focusrite ISA.

My first impressions:
I liked 2 setups best. None involved the SM7B.

mk-12 on toms with the Royer ribbons overhead sounded really good. Nice full natural tone. I would likely use this setup for jazz recordings in the future.

The second setup I liked, was the MD421 on toms, with the mk-12 pair overhead. It's a brighter, more separated, rock setup, pretty much what I've been doing as a go-to for many years in here.

For some reason, the mk-12s when used in both the overhead and tom positions at the same time was not as pleasant as with the ribbons overhead. Maybe too much of the same frequencies being brought out by duplicate mics?

The SM7B had nice bottom, but lacked that punchy top you want in a tom mic. I got that punch from both the MD421 and the mk-12, though I sensed the mk-12 to accentuate presence at a slightly higher frequency than the MD421 did.
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