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Soundcraft Ghost vs Speck LiLo vs Toft ATB Summing Mixers
Old 25th August 2007
  #31
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heyman's Avatar
Man, I see a trend... Someone steps up to defend the ATB and you seem to always want to shoot it down.

You come on here and dispute that a Series 24 is a better console and in some ways, for certain applications, it may be. Yes, you brought up features 24 buss, vs 8 buss.. etc..

Then someone chimes in who also has experince with a Series 24 and brings up its limitations.

Hey guess what, next you bring a MTA console into the mix... That is comparing apples and oranges isnt it ?.. How much was a MTA 900 series brand new?
Not 5 grand..

Should we just reside in the fact that your not going to give the Toft console a chance? Would this even have come up if the ATB console was built in England..?
Old 25th August 2007
  #32
Gear Maniac
 
contempo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by heyman View Post
Man, I see a trend... Someone steps up to defend the ATB and you seem to always want to shoot it down.
funny the only trend i see is YOU getting pissy & defending your purchase. someone else brought up the mta bit, my point was that no, they're NOT the same console even if the designer was the same. pull your head out of your butt & reread what i wrote there.

my original and grander point was that for the same money as an atb 32 you could get an older desk, trident, soundcraft, neoteks, harrisons etc. that'll probably run rings around an atb in all senses. form, function and sound. didn't one of our very own respected members sell his trident 24 with bays & cabling on here for $7000 last year?? who in their right mind would take an atb over something like that? those trident 24's were a whole lot more then a new atb as well, yet YOU seem to still be comparing them too, and funny... i thought that's what the original poster was looking for. information on different consoles.

you know, i have better things to do with my time then agure with some internet twithead whos always right.

later.
Old 25th August 2007
  #33
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heyman's Avatar
Funny thing is, your still on here bashing a console you have never even heard..

Here are some of your quotes..

"i still say the 24 is probably a better made console then the ATB"
"for the same money as an atb 32 you could get an older desk, trident, soundcraft, neoteks, harrisons etc. that'll probably run rings around an atb in all senses"
"so they're probably all mounted on a pcb."
"personally i wish the ATB was made anywhere else even if it came with a higher price tag. how about $10k and made in japan?"

Totally laughable...

Your right, you have better things to do than argue with me. I mean, how can a guy who is "mixing next week on a Neve 8068" lower himself to someone who is here to talk about the Toft and speck Lilo.... ?

This thread was never about a Trident 24, MTA, Harrison, and Neve 8068 that you will be mixing on next week.

Hey, I defend my purchase because I like the console. Plain and simple. Nothing more nothing less.

You on the other hand never seemed to let go of the fact that you had a bad experience years ago with PMI..

Get over it and go change your pampers.. or better yet go lay under a Tank in Tiananmen square to protest the atrocities in China. I'd pay to see that..
Old 25th August 2007
  #34
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by heyman View Post

Get over it and go change your pampers.. or better yet go lay under a Tank in Tiananmen square to protest the atrocities in China. I'd pay to see that..
WOW!

'Ya know... I clicked on this link because I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on an ATB and thought there might be something here besides the other 30-page thread... maybe some new info...

I think the $7k Trident that 'contempo' was reffering to was mine... pre-Oxide Lounge debacble...

BOY do I wish I had plopped that desk into storage!!!

Anyway...

Heyman... wow man.

I'm completely flabbergasted & astounded at the lack of respect for not other people on this board, but the above comment shows ME & the rest of the world that you have seemingly VERY little respect for humans in general.

Sad.
Old 25th August 2007
  #35
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by contempo View Post
my original and grander point was that for the same money as an atb 32 you could get an older desk, trident, soundcraft, neoteks, harrisons etc. that'll probably run rings around an atb in all senses. form, function and sound.
See the key work in that statement is "probably". When we first heard the ATB we were shocked. We had no idea how something that inexpensive could sound so good and be laid out so intelligently.

Yeah, there are a couple things I'd change on it given the option but not enough to walk away from the thing. If this had come out 4 years ago when I first purchased the console for my studio... I wouldn't have purchased the console I purchased... and certainly wouldn't have spent a few thousand extra dollars on buying a second one for spares nor several thousand more doing mods to the thing so it worked more like a studio console than a live desk... but that's life.

The reason it's inexpensive is that it's built in a land where cheap labor is plentiful... which on a geo political level is kind of a drag... but I generally don't let geo politics involve my audio hardware purchasing decisions... I only let quality and tone dictate those decisions and frankly I've found the ATB to be a well thought out good sounding instrument.

As always, YMMV.

Peace.
Old 25th August 2007
  #36
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
be careful about assuming there!
What? It really doesn't matter why you didn't mix on the Trident 24...I really don't care. But tracking on a 24 using external pres and subsequently mixing on and API desk doesn't really make one a good judge on that board.


Quote:
do the micamps on the ATB have transformers? if not, then it's NOT the same pre as the old series 80s and mta 980/990 which DO have transformers. be curious to know the answer to that one. the toft looks like its several steps up from a mackie 8buss for sure, but not on the level, or even close to the level of an old series 80 like the marketing claims. maybe the eq design is the same, maybe it even sounds good, people seem to say it's better then most plug-ins but i've never thought plug-ins sounded all that great to begin with.
Your being disingenious with your models and such. A Trident 24 does not have Xformer based pres either and that's what we're talking about, so that not a selling feature over the ATB. So what does the Trident 24 have? It's a TL070 board with a crap PSU that drive most people nuts. Then you compare it to an 80 series? The price difference is 5X man. BUT if you have external pres, you can probably sound as good if not better than an 80B

Now if you don't like the Chinese or PMI - who am I to argue? The guy just wants to know about the board, not whether an Englishman, Mexican, or Chinaman is
better at soldering.
Old 25th August 2007
  #37
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
But tracking on a 24 using external pres and subsequently mixing on and API desk doesn't really make one a good judge on that board.
As a former 24 owner I can say that this is the only sensible way to use that console.

-R
Old 25th August 2007
  #38
Lives for gear
 

Then it's stellar heh
Old 25th August 2007
  #39
Gear Nut
 

Sorry for hijacking but could we get a comment from somebody who knows the three consoles (NOT the 24)? comparison Ghost - ATB would be interesting...

thanks
Old 25th August 2007
  #40
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666666's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by denne View Post
Sorry for hijacking but could we get a comment from somebody who knows the three consoles (NOT the 24)? comparison Ghost - ATB would be interesting...
thanks


Yes, let's get back to the subject of the post please.

Compare:

Ghost

ATB

LiLo

I'm specifically interested in the quality of the summing - not worried about the pres, eqs or lack thereof.

Thanks for all the helpful replies so far... looking for some more if possible.

THANKS
Old 25th August 2007
  #41
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
See the key work in that statement is "probably". When we first heard the ATB we were shocked. We had no idea how something that inexpensive could sound so good and be laid out so intelligently.

Yeah, there are a couple things I'd change on it given the option but not enough to walk away from the thing. If this had come out 4 years ago when I first purchased the console for my studio... I wouldn't have purchased the console I purchased... and certainly wouldn't have spent a few thousand extra dollars on buying a second one for spares nor several thousand more doing mods to the thing so it worked more like a studio console than a live desk... but that's life.
Hmmm... I probably shouldn't touch this with a 10-foot pole but I'm curious...

Fletcher, since you've spent a bit of time with the ATB, how's the headroom & overall tone/build quality of the desk? Compared to 'ya know "real" consoles like your old chopped Series 80 or API desk of some sort? Is the headroom, both input side & internal mix buss on par, a similar game or does it freak out at +20?

Sifting through the theads on here I see a lotta guys comparing them to & saying it sounds worlds better then a Smackie or old beaters like Tac Scopians which IMO, weren't all that steller even 10 years ago... so it's not saying "much" for me. Plus... 'ya know... We both know what my impressions of your old live desk were, pre mods & rebuild anyway... but I've got that as a reference too. It DID/does have pretty remarkable headroom... can only imagine it was better after work was done.

Anywhoo... It might be tough to find someone who's used all three of the desks in question given the "home/project studio" aim of 'em... I'd think that folks are buying a desk & using them until death, not swapping them out on a regular basis so they wouldn't be exposed to a great number of mixing consoles like a traveling engineer/producer would be.

Having used the Ghost a fair number of times and spending just a little bit of time with the Lilo... I'd say that neither has a deficitent build quality, but the Speck is a fair bit more "solid" & substantial. Beyond that... they're so vastly different it's IMO, impossible to compare them fairly. The Ghost is more of a "real" console with EQ's, 8 or 10 aux sends... more busses... while the Lilo is it's own groovy thing.

In terms of "tone" between the two I might go with a Lilo, even though it's fairly 'toneless' (in a good way) but you might find your hands tied in a fully analog mix enviornment... For about the same dough as a Speck you could get something like this ~ Soundcraft TS12 Console 24 Inputs

BTW ~ that Soundcraft is sold. I think the asking price was just under $10k + freight & other assorted odds & ends. It did come with some cabling...multitrack & outboard harnesses.

Last edited by Jay Kahrs; 25th August 2007 at 11:55 PM.. Reason: grammer & schlit
Old 26th August 2007
  #42
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666666's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs View Post
...but you might find your hands tied in a fully analog mix enviornment...
It appears my goal is unique... I have not read of many people mixing in the way that I desire.

Very simply, I prefer mixing "outside the box" on an analog mixer as I have been doing for years. It might be the "hard way", but it just feels good to me. I will not even touch the "ITB vs OTB" issue... I prefer OTB more for the ergonomics than for the sonics... though I somehow seem to prefer the sonics of it anyway.

At this point I have collected a large amount of analog outboard (eqs, comps, etc), enough to not need any inside a mixer... so all I really need is a great clean "summing box"... BUT, also with individual level controls, pan, mute and solo... and not too much else really. If I were to pick up a mixer packed with pres and eqs, I'd be paying for a lot of stuff that I don't need.... I like my outboard and plan to keep and use it regardless.

Oh yeah, and I greatly prefer nice FADERS over small knobs for level control. I would have picked up a rack of API 8200s a long time ago, but I can't see mixing using those tiny knobs. Yes, unlike many these days, I still prefer to make level adjustments on the fly, "riding the faders" in real time... this is a drag to do using tiny knobs.

The LiLo appears to be perfect for me in terms of its overall lay out... it has exactly what I need, and nothing more... a stripped down mixer with faders... but no pres, no eqs, and overall simple set-up... sweet.

My main concern though, as is yours Jay, is the sonics of the console. As you ask in your above post, "how's the headroom & overall tone/build quality of the desk?...Compared to 'ya know "real" consoles"... this is exactly what I'm trying to figure out with respect to the LiLo... and ATB too. When my entire outboard array is API and GML (and a few other things of similar quality), I am concerned about adding a "weak link" into my mixing chain. Since everything passes through the summing, the summing is quite critical. I wish I could afford API or GML summing with faders, but those options are a bit out of my $ range at the moment.

I actually know the answer here... I need to get my hands on these various mixers in question and actually TRY them myself. But, before venturing out on that time consuming journey, I'm hoping to get more responses here to perhaps send me on the straightest path.

Finally, if I just cannot get what I need with faders, I may have to live without faders.... and get used to dealing with tiny knobs. I'd still rather do that than stare at a computer screen and work a computer mouse all day... but that's just me. You know, you gotta do what feels right.
Old 26th August 2007
  #43
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heyman's Avatar
First off. My aplogies to any one I offended. Jay, I respect your work and I really not the type of person to take shots like that. I am sorry.

66666, I too use outboard pre's and a Stay OTB - all the time. If you dont need eq, why not try the route of a Lilo and a summing Mixer, like the Inward conectons Mixdream or neve?

If you are wanting the eq, the toft can fill that role. I think you need to mix on one, twist the knobs.

There has got to be a floor model out there where you can get it, try it out for 2-3 weeks and mix onit, compare your old mixes to the ATB.. go from there?
Old 26th August 2007
  #44
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indie's Avatar
 

Anybody ever use the Midas Venice that now has an ATB??? Wondering if it's a step sideways with sonics. The ATB is definitely a studio console (routing/features)...where as the Venice is a live board. But just wondering about headroom, sonics in general.
Old 26th August 2007
  #45
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 666666 View Post
It appears my goal is unique... I have not read of many people mixing in the way that I desire.

Very simply, I prefer mixing "outside the box" on an analog mixer as I have been doing for years. It might be the "hard way", but it just feels good to me. I will not even touch the "ITB vs OTB" issue... I prefer OTB more for the ergonomics than for the sonics... though I somehow seem to prefer the sonics of it anyway.

At this point I have collected a large amount of analog outboard (eqs, comps, etc), enough to not need any inside a mixer... so all I really need is a great clean "summing box"... BUT, also with individual level controls, pan, mute and solo... and not too much else really. If I were to pick up a mixer packed with pres and eqs, I'd be paying for a lot of stuff that I don't need.... I like my outboard and plan to keep and use it regardless.

Oh yeah, and I greatly prefer nice FADERS over small knobs for level control.

Nothing at all seems "weird" about that to me.... It's the way I prefer to work, and really... a lot of other cats too.

The Lilo seems limiting to me for a full-on analog mix environment because while it's got 32 inputs, only 16 have full access to aux sends (might be wrong there) and there's only two buss outs besides the 2-mix buss outs... I view it as a great alternative to something like the Neve 8816 or SPL Mixdream... but not as a "console" in the way I traditionaly think of "consoles".

I use a good deal of outboard too and lots of parallel’s…mults…I’m constantly hanging stompboxes off the desk and jamming drums & whatever else through them... There's no way I could have less then 4-6 aux sends and 8 busses at a minimum without being "tied" somehow. Granted, there are workarounds... but I'm rarely working on my own material... and the last thing I need while building a mix is to switch heads and come up with some kinda workaround rather then letting things flow, especially when time... the clients time, is almost always a factor.

So it is a bit of a speed & ergonomics issue.

Beyond that... I want a console for the EQ's & other bits. Maybe you don't need the micamps, but 'ya know... every console has 'em & cutting them off something like a Ghost, well, that saves what, maybe $3 in raw parts per channel? Good console EQ is really handy... either when working 'fast' on a rough mix, shaping FX returns, and sometimes it's preferable to or in addition to outboard EQ.

The best, I mean... the REALLY best "deals" are out there on the used market.

Care & feeding of something like that TS-12 or another mid-size desk is a whole other beast from the little guys... but so are the sonics & overall quality. I might be closing on a Soundcraft DC shortly... at a small fraction of what it was "new" and a fraction of what it SHOULD be going for too... motivated seller and the desks not running at 100% but sounds like it wouldn't take a whole lot of work to get it there...

FWIW ~ I've spent a good deal of time on the Venice. I worked as the house engineer at Mexicali Blues in Teaneck from '03 to '05 and we had one at FOH... nice desk. Good EQ, great headroom... solid the whole way around, but again... might be too limiting for studio use. Even the 32 input has only 24 mono... I generally run at least 40 inputs on a 24-track mix... 50-60+ wouldn't be uncommon if there's more tracks...
Old 5th September 2007
  #46
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Jamzone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
First off, I don't want to be argumentative with you - I just enjoy the back and forth

But you used external pre's and mixed on something else. So it doesn't say much about the series 24. Having said that, they're fricken noisey, bad headroom (unless seriously modded out) and high maintainance (and good luck getting parts).

Now I'm not going to sit here and say the ATB is the next best thing since sliced bread - I actually bought one for a bar (FOH). But due to construction delays I bought it to the studio "just to see". The only problems were a couple of cold solder joints (took 5 minutes to fix) and that was it. Decent pre's, very good EQ, decent noise floor and decent headroom. It's socket mounted (not surface mounted) so you can swap the chips on the master section if you want a more "open" sound easily and cheap. It's seriously a good value. A Series 24 would cost you double and not sound better.


I'm curious,

Is there anyone here who have modified their Toft Atb?? What options are there??



///Jamzone
Old 5th September 2007
  #47
Lives for gear
 

Lucy did it and posted clips...but I can't find it in the Toft threads...too big.
Old 6th September 2007
  #48
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alanhyatt's Avatar
 

Hey guys...as most of you know, the ATB was designed with a specific market in mind. To reach that goal, transformers could not be employed on the mic amps, so Malcolm elected to use the same circuit used on the MTA980. We are very happy with the sonic quality and build the ATB console offers no matter where it is assembled, and many professional "high end" users are using the ATB and attesting to this very claim.

Yes, there were some early issues we have spent time cleaning up and have resolved. We never hid behind them and admitted them from the get go and have gone out of our way to help and assist anyone with an issue from the early run consoles. All of these issues are now a "non-issue" and the console is pretty trouble free...remember, it still is a console and as Fletcher can tell you, consoles break.

I prefer to not get into the political battle with regards to China. Pointing fingers at one country when so many others, including the USA have done its share of global damage seems to be counterproductive.

We will never please everyone out there and can not satisfy some peoples expectations. With that said, I think we have satisfied most and have had to let the others go. Our reputation is pretty good out there but no one is perfect. As a small boutique design company, we are slow to get to market, but so many are as well. We do the best we can.

Vince at Speck is a friend and a good competitor who make a fine product but it is different from our offering. The beauty of all of this is that one size does not fit all. I know that pretty much everyone who owns and uses the ATB have told us they got way more board than they ever expected for the price they paid.

When we enter into more expensive models, perhaps we will satisfy some of those we are not today...but its all good guys...its all good....
Old 30th September 2007
  #49
Gear Maniac
 
contempo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs View Post
Fletcher, since you've spent a bit of time with the ATB, how's the headroom & overall tone/build quality of the desk? Compared to 'ya know "real" consoles like your old chopped Series 80 or API desk of some sort? Is the headroom, both input side & internal mix buss on par, a similar game or does it freak out at +20?
a bump for mr fletcher. I for one would like to see a response here...
Old 30th September 2007
  #50
Lives for gear
As someone who was seriously contemplating a Toft ATB 24, I'd have to say that it would seem an absolute waste to get one and not use the EQ!!

From everything I've read it seems that the EQ is the single strongest point of the Toft - it's certainly why I was looking at it!
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