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Can anybody learn how to sing? Ribbon Microphones
Old 27th July 2010
  #241
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henryrobinett's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
That AND the talent to get you to the top. MOST people could never do this no matter how hard they work at it.
That's almost impossible to determine since most people don't do it. And who is to determine who has talent. Most people who practice like Coltrane, every waking hour, believe they must have some talent worth the effort. Though the great jazz pianist Bill Evans maintained that he did NOT have a great talent. That in school there were several kids who played better and were much more talented. He just worked harder.

Talent is only a perhaps small part of the equation. The other is belief in yourself/head big enough to withstand the critics, friends and girl friends who call you crazy or selfish or self absorbed and yet another still is just plain hard work.

It's easy for others to say some will never make it no matter how hard they work, simply because no one really knows.

I am convinced that given that one works hard enough, knows what to work on and how to work on the things one needs to work on, that one knows how to focus and concentrate on items solidly and repetitively, has goals that can be met on a graduated scale and that one has an undying belief in himself, said person can be as great as he wants to be.
Old 27th July 2010
  #242
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I could have predicted most of the responses that people have posted in this thread.
I have read and heard them for many years.
I myself have even thought some to be the truth in the past.

People are mystified by the human voice when it is an accomplished vocalist or singer.
It doesn't matter that if it is Bob Dylan or Jose Carreras.

I don't have an answer as to why this is, but I have always suspected that people come up with the simplistic and wrong-headed explanations for why some artists and people are successful or simply pleasant to listen to because they themselves have a voice, yet they and most people they know can't sing.
It is far easier to say that people who are good came by it naturally or were "born with and innate ability" than it is to contemplate actual hard work and practice.
The same thing also seems to work for people explaining extraordinary abilities on musical instruments like guitar and other more common instruments that people are familiar with.
They will acknowledge that a violin player has practiced his craft for years, but a guitar player who really doesn't have the technical musical abilities of the average symphonic musician is thought to have gained his abilities by genetics.

It really all comes down to being educated in music.
Statements like "opera has become a stylized and un-natural way of singing" only show gross ignorance.
I won't even explain why this is a un-true statement from an person who is obviously un-educated in vocal technique.
I can only hope that people don't take it as the truth because it only further confuses and mystifies what is long established fact about vocal technique.
It just has to be ignored, but I fear some people will accept it because it explains things away so easily.

I will say this and if people want to argue with me they can.
I have formed most of my views from things that I have learned from and asked from my wife who has a degree in music from a prestigious music school.
I tend to ask questions a bout things that I can't do or don't know about from people who are really good or are really well educated in the subject I am curious about.

So I ask...
Who here has studied voice?
Who has a clue beyond what they have personally decided must be true about vocal technique?
(I bet I could tell who has and has not from the responses posted in this thread.)
Old 27th July 2010
  #243
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henryrobinett's Avatar
I was going to ask a similar question.

I have not studied voice. But I teach music in college and have been around professional singers of a variety of styles for many, many years. My cousin, who is like a sister to me, is an opera singer and used to do it professionally. I come from a long line of professional musicians, a couple of them famous and one very famous and well respected. I've been a hard working professional musician for a very long time. I know what it takes and I know that most people of no idea.
Old 27th July 2010
  #244
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Henry, I could read into what you have posted and know that you had been exposed to people that were trained as vocalists.

God knows that I can't sing very well.
I have been exposed to people who CAN sing very well.

Over the years I have recorded both people that could sing VERY well and were paid well for their talent and people who were awful.
I have tended to pay attention to what the accomplished people said over what people who were not very good or were simply OK said or thought.
Old 27th July 2010
  #245
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Unclenny's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Sutton View Post
When does the fat lady sing?
More importantly.......how will she sound?
Old 27th July 2010
  #246
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba View Post
It is far easier to say that people who are good came by it naturally or were "born with and innate ability" than it is to contemplate actual hard work and practice.
But I am saying you need both to reach the absolute top of the game. Of course it requires years of hard work and practive. I just feel that natural talent is bigger component than you do.
Old 27th July 2010
  #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
Would you feel the same way if he sang banal and insipid pop?
That's a good question. Probably not, but it's a little like asking if I would still like Pavarotti if he sang folk. I don't think I would. So, that just means that some singers are suited to a certain style and repertoire than others.
Old 27th July 2010
  #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba View Post
Who here has studied voice?
I started vocal training at the age of 10 and was offered a scholarship to UCLA's vocal music program at the age of 17 but ultimately didn't attend as I went on to a different field of study. But my wife doesn't sing so I guess my opinions don't count for anything.
Old 27th July 2010
  #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post
I started vocal training at the age of 10 and was offered a scholarship to UCLA's vocal music program at the age of 17 but ultimately didn't attend as I went on to a different field of study. But my wife doesn't sing so I guess my opinions don't count for anything.
But I didn't take you to be arguing that a person can't learn to sing. I certainly believe that one can learn to sing and that all accomplished singers have worked hard to what they do. I've been on your side against people who take a very parochial and rigid view of what "proper singing" is, but I would never say that singing can't be learned and I didn't take you to be saying it either.
Old 27th July 2010
  #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtlin View Post
but I would never say that singing can't be learned and I didn't take you to be saying it either.
No I know. That wasn't aimed at you, but at Danny who seems to assume that people don't have any relevant experience or credentials unless they constantly mention it.
Old 27th July 2010
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
But I am saying you need both to reach the absolute top of the game. Of course it requires years of hard work and practive. I just feel that natural talent is bigger component than you do.
It isn't "natural musical talent" in most cases.
It is drive, the hunger to succeed or stubborness that gets most famous people where they are.
Some of these people have also been well connected or just plain lucky.

I will agree that some people have brains that are more connected in ways that allow them to make music easier.
I know a few people like this, but I also have known a few very well respected and a few famous musicians that focused solely on music and were failures in the rest of their lives.

Regardless, this is all talking about FAMOUS people and the discussion never was "Can anyone be taught to be famous while using their vocal abilities."

You have to be very careful when analyzing this type of stuff to separate the idea of a famous artist or ACT from true an artist that is equally or even superior.

Contrary to what people think, people don't get famous because they sing or play an instrument well in pop music.
MOST (not all) stars are not anything but above average in their musical abilities.
There is generally a marketing/hype team in place telling you that they are the unique and special, but if you truly analyze what the are as musicians you see that they are good, but it their entertainer abilities that makes them famous.
Old 27th July 2010
  #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post
I started vocal training at the age of 10 and was offered a scholarship to UCLA's vocal music program at the age of 17 but ultimately didn't attend as I went on to a different field of study. But my wife doesn't sing so I guess my opinions don't count for anything.
Well, you don't talk like you ever went through a music department.
I could tell that because if you had you probably wouldn't make the blanket statements that you did.
I'm sorry, but what you have been stating goes against common wisdom of the people I have known who are trained vocalists.
Also, the original question and topic of this thread is asking if anyone can be trained to sing.

It doesn't matter if my wife impressed these views on me or who it was.
Henry who does have more credentials and experience than you agrees with me.
I would not be worried that any accomplished vocalist would disagree with me either.

Also, quite a few generalizations about what I have said have been made.
There have been a few things that WERE NOT what I said or meant.
Perhaps you mis-understood or wanted the story to go in your favor.
Old 27th July 2010
  #253
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba View Post
It isn't "natural musical talent" in most cases.
It is drive, the hunger to succeed or stubborness that gets most famous people where they are.
Some of these people have also been well connected or just plain lucky.

I will agree that some people have brains that are more connected in ways that allow them to make music easier.
I know a few people like this, but I also have known a few very well respected and a few famous musicians that focused solely on music and were failures in the rest of their lives.

Regardless, this is all talking about FAMOUS people and the discussion never was "Can anyone be taught to be famous while using their vocal abilities."

You have to be very careful when analyzing this type of stuff to separate the idea of a famous artist or ACT from true an artist that is equally or even superior.

Contrary to what people think, people don't get famous because the sing or play an instrument well in pop music.
MOST (not all) stars are not anything but above average in their musical abilities.
There is generally a marketing/hype team in place telling you that they are the unique and special, but if you truly analyze what the are as musicians you see that they are good, but it their entertainer abilities that makes them famous.
The ONLY measure of success can be sales. No other measurement really amounts to a hill of beans when making judgments of artistic value.

Everything else is opinion. Including the parents conclusion that little Billy's painting is a masterpiece. I suppose you could take polls, have industry talking heads hand out Grammys, or vote (like American Idol) But in the end, if the argument is about the artistic value of a performance, there really is no other measuring stick.

Without factoring in dollars as some sort of indicator, YES, ANYBODY CAN LEARN TO SING. And find success as an "artist". Even the songbird outside my window.
Old 27th July 2010
  #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
The ONLY measure of success can be sales. No other measurement really amounts to a hill of beans when making judgments of artistic value.
I'll use Regis Philbin's famous line from Who Wants to be a Millionaire? by asking..
Is that your final answer?

With this definition most musicians, whether they are talented or not, are failures.

I could go on and on about this statement, but I don't think I need to really.
Old 27th July 2010
  #255
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henryrobinett's Avatar
sounds great - if that were true then Brittany Spears would be considered greater than Beethoven. Art is generally NOT judged by sales. Mozart sells like **** these days. He's still considered a genius. Nickleback sells well. Are they the best art we have? Jonas Bros? Is Twilight greatest movie ever made? Tiny Tim sold a lot in his day. So did Disco Duck.
Old 27th July 2010
  #256
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba View Post
I'll use Regis Philbin's famous line from Who Wants to be a Millionaire? by asking..
Is that your final answer?

With this definition most musicians, whether they are talented or not, are failures.
Commercial failures, yes. Some of them are good. Some of them are damn good. But they didn't quite make it all the way.

The whole discussion is rather moot until you agree upon a definition of "singing".

In the general sense there is no doubt that anyone can learn to sing. But most of the discussion in this forum is based upon the goal of commercial success.
Old 27th July 2010
  #257
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OH, POOOOO!!!!!

Selena Gomez is having to cancel tour dates because her voice is tired out.

Now THAT is some art that a bunch of children are not going to get to see!
They will be so deprived.

Her voice is tired out?
Maybe someone lost the vocal track CD!

I wouldn't imagine in a million years she is singing anything live because I am pretty sure that most of what I hear of her singing on TV and videos IS NOT actually her.
Old 27th July 2010
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
But most of the discussion in this forum is based upon the goal of commercial success.
That is because people like you drug the topic there.
It is because you and few others equated everything in the discussion to famous artists.
Old 27th July 2010
  #259
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henryrobinett's Avatar
timothy, the OP, never mentioned "commercial success" as his standard. This discussion morphed there illogically. The thread was about "can anybody learn to sing." Period. After a time rock stars were brought into it. Opera stars. Divas. The question was simple. Then the whole forum got their panties bunched.
Old 27th July 2010
  #260
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
sounds great - if that were true then Brittany Spears would be considered greater than Beethoven. Art is generally NOT judged by sales. Mozart sells like **** these days. He's still considered a genius. Nickleback sells well. Are they the best art we have? Jonas Bros? Is Twilight greatest movie ever made? Tiny Tim sold a lot in his day. So did Disco Duck.
I'm not disagreeing. But without some measure, it is an impossible discussion. If I hear someone singing in the park, and I like it, does that make him a singer?

Part of being a successful artist, is the ability to stand up and shout and make people take notice. The people you mentioned have done this one way or another, even if I agree that they suck.
Old 27th July 2010
  #261
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
The question was simple. Then the whole forum got their panties bunched.
The question IS NOT simple. It can not be answered without first defining "singing".
Old 27th July 2010
  #262
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charming answer

[QUOTE=timothy;1439101] I'm starting to believe that you're either born with a great voice, or you arent... nothing you can do about it!

That´s pretty much it really.

too much technic and practice is for those aren´t sure about themselves.
If you´re not sure about yourself you´ll never be great singer.That´s a contradiction in terms.
The public will let you know quickly anyway once you appear. If on the other hand you keep practicing and learning, you probably just want to shy away from that frightening experience.
Singing is communicating not preparing for communication. If you don´t regularly sing in public while your still studying, forget about it.
Learn an instrument.
Old 27th July 2010
  #263
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Part of being a successful artist, is the ability to stand up and shout and make people take notice.
Being a successful artist is making music that YOU (the one making it) loves and is moved in some way by.

Antaren
Old 27th July 2010
  #264
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Quit
Old 27th July 2010
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by escape View Post
too much technic and practice is for those aren´t sure about themselves.
It just never stops.
Then again I have been listening to this same argument from people for a lot of years.

Too much Technic...
are we talking about stereo equipment now?
Old 27th July 2010
  #266
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Can anybody learn how to sing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba View Post
Quit
Is that all you got?


How can anyone agree on an answer without agreeing what is meant by sing?
Old 27th July 2010
  #267
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I know that music-teachers also have to survive and by no means i would dismiss what they do.
But I´ve been in the music buisiness for too long to not know, that the buisiness of teaching music sometimes is too closely related to selling pipedreams.
Old 28th July 2010
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
The ONLY measure of success can be sales. No other measurement really amounts to a hill of beans when making judgments of artistic value.
Not sure what you all are talking about anymore...and I while I don't agree completely...I think music was miles better when talented people generally felt this way before it became a sin...someone said art isn't a sport, but sure it is...everything is a sport...this thread is a sport...competition inspires people to practice!

Okay, back to whatever...
Old 28th July 2010
  #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by escape View Post
I know that music-teachers also have to survive and by no means i would dismiss what they do.
But I´ve been in the music buisiness for too long to not know, that the buisiness of teaching music sometimes is too closely related to selling pipedreams.
Yes, there are people that claim to be teaching voice lessons who are charlatans.
They sell pipe dreams because they have found a niche with people who want to believe in pipe dreams.
Someone who researches the music education possibilities should be smart enough to go to a real vocal coach.
Some people go to charlatan who leads them down a path that is easy and rewarding in the short term, but they never really learn to sing.
I have seen several people screw up their voices by following the advice of charlatans.

There are also people that sell videos that teach you how to sing.

I was going to do that, but I decided to learn to play professional football instead.
I have been watching lot's of football on TV.
If I watch enough I hope to turn pro eventually.
I am also working on baseball, golf and although I'd like to be a professional tennis player I don't like to watch tennis on TV, so I'm not going to be a tennis pro I have decided.
Old 28th July 2010
  #270
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henryrobinett's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
How can anyone agree on an answer without agreeing what is meant by sing?
Wow. Now you really have got me. You don't know what singing is?
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