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Can anybody learn how to sing? Ribbon Microphones
Old 26th July 2010
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
Well I may be an idiot (naturally), but are you saying that if any 2 people practice the exact same amount, they will be equally skilled?
yeah, more or less, its hard to gauge "time" though. There's a difference between practicing with intensity for hours on end and noodling around.

Studies have shown that people who are of a very high proficiency with any skill (sports, chess, music, etc) spend more or less the same amount of time "intensely practicing".

there are several books on the subject. Talent is overrated is a good starting point.

YouTube - Geoff Colvin - Talent Is Overrated: What Really Separates World-Class Performers from Everybody Else
Old 26th July 2010
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iankaravas View Post
anyone who believes in natural talent is an idiot. end of story.

all skills are acquired. practice.
If you are saying we are all born equal and it is ONLY hard work that separates us, I'm going to call that ball cocks.
Old 26th July 2010
  #123
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All I know is that the first time I tried to seriously sing in a band, I knew I would never be an American Idol kind of singer. I would also never have the control or the soul of someone like Stevie Wonder, or Steve Winwood for that matter. I also knew though that if I kept at it, I could be soulful in a whole different Bob Dylan/Warren Zevon/John Lennon/Neil Young sincere and ragged way.

It's now ten years later and I'm entering the ballpark. It's tenuous but it's the only voice I'll ever have. I'll take it. Sometimes I'm surprised.

-Alex
Old 26th July 2010
  #124
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Originally Posted by Chucho View Post
If you are saying we are all born equal and it is ONLY hard work that separates us, I'm going to call that ball cocks.
unless you have a mental or physical disability, we all have more or less the same potential
Old 26th July 2010
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucho View Post
If you are saying we are all born equal and it is ONLY hard work that separates us, I'm going to call that ball cocks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
Pitch can be taught.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
are you saying that if any 2 people practice the exact same amount, they will be equally skilled?
Natural Talent

Good Teacher

Lots Of Practice

That is what it takes to get good at any discipline. The trick is.......if you are deficient in one of those three areas you need to make it up in the others.
Old 26th July 2010
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclenny View Post
Natural Talent

Good Teacher

Lots Of Practice

That is what it takes to get good at any discipline. The trick is.......if you are deficient in one of those three areas you need to make it up in the others.
I agree with you, though I dont feel they are all equally weighted. I would say practice+effort is about 70% or more, while a good teacher is about 20% and natural talent is about 10% or less.

I think a lot of people get confused about the idea of "natural talent" and erroneously attach the tag onto people who have actually just been practicing since a very early age / practicing more often.

I dated a girl who was an amazing singer, and I once asked her when she started singing. she told me she couldn't remember a time in her life when she wasn't singing. I on the other hand, dont think I ever opened my mouth to sing until i was about 16 (not even in the shower!).

I wonder why shes better than me...must be natural talent...

/s
Old 26th July 2010
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iankaravas View Post
I agree with you, though I dont feel they are all equally weighted. I would say practice+effort is about 70% or more, while a good teacher is about 20% and natural talent is about 10% or less.

I think a lot of people get confused about the idea of "natural talent" and erroneously attach the tag onto people who have actually just been practicing since a very early age / practicing more often.
Wait...so natural talent does exist? What happened to the idiot concept?

There have been some very talented people who didn't even have teachers...

McCartney, for example, very little formal training in singing, songwriting, bass playing, and most everything else he does incredibly well...he's no more talented than you and me and every single person on this forum?

Hmmm...
Old 26th July 2010
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
Wait...so natural talent does exist? What happened to the idiot concept?

There have been some very talented people who didn't even have teachers...

McCartney, for example, very little formal training in singing, songwriting, bass playing, and most everything else he does incredibly well...he's no more talented than you and me and every single person on this forum?

Hmmm...
I think of "talent" as an "x" physical limitation. ex: a tall basketball player vs a short one, its going to be much harder for the shorter guy to become extremely proficient, but its not impossible and it has been done. I admit that a factor like that exists, but I dont think its very significant in most fields. With something like music it becomes much less significant. If you think having small hands or big hands is going to keep you from being a skilled musician...then...well...you're a goon.

I'm sure McCartney Practiced way more often, and more seriously than most the people on this forum.
Old 26th July 2010
  #129
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Polgar and her two younger sisters, Grandmaster Judit and International Master Sofia, were part of an educational experiment carried out by their father László Polgár, who sought to prove that children could make exceptional achievements if trained in a specialist subject from a very early age. "Geniuses are made, not born," was László's thesis. He and his wife Klara educated their three daughters at home, with chess as the specialist subject.

At age 4, Polgar won her first chess tournament, the Budapest Girl's Under-11 Championship, with a 10–0 score. In 1982, at the age of 12, she won the World Under 16 (Girls) Championship. Despite restrictions on her freedom to play in international tournaments, by 1984 at age 15 Polgar had become the top-rated female chess player in the world.[3]

there you go...

do you really think this guy was just lucky and had 3 daughters who was born with amazing chess skills?

more on her wiki page
Old 26th July 2010
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iankaravas View Post
unless you have a mental or physical disability, we all have more or less the same potential
Maybe. But some people learn some things much faster than others.

I used to play disk golf. I practiced putting a lot for a couple of years and it did no good. I still totally sucked.

Then I tried regular golf and I was quite good at the putting right away. I beat my uncle on his home green in a putting contest and he's been playing for fifty years.

I was also very good at basic math though I had no interest in it and did as little as possible.

So Ibelieve in such a thing as talent.
Old 26th July 2010
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisbieinstein View Post
Maybe. But some people learn some things much faster than others.

I used to play disk golf. I practiced putting a lot for a couple of years and it did no good. I still totally sucked.

Then I tried regular golf and I was quite good at the putting right away. I beat my uncle on his home green in a putting contest and he's been playing for fifty years.

I was also very good at basic math though I had no interest in it and did as little as possible.

So Ibelieve in such a thing as talent.
read my last post.
Old 26th July 2010
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iankaravas View Post
I agree with you, though I dont feel they are all equally weighted. I would say practice+effort is about 70% or more, while a good teacher is about 20% and natural talent is about 10% or less.

I think a lot of people get confused about the idea of "natural talent" and erroneously attach the tag onto people who have actually just been practicing since a very early age / practicing more often.
I've seen it too many times in too many fields to belive otherwise now; the word "talent" mostly describes a talent for practice. While there's no denying that some people are more efficient than others, it's the tolerance/joy for doing something over and over again while it improves that builds skill.
Old 26th July 2010
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iankaravas View Post
I think of "talent" as an "x" physical limitation. ex: a tall basketball player vs a short one, its going to be much harder for the shorter guy to become extremely proficient, but its not impossible and it has been done. I admit that a factor like that exists, but I dont think its very significant in most fields. With something like music it becomes much less significant. If you think having small hands or big hands is going to keep you from being a skilled musician...then...well...you're a goon.

I'm sure McCartney Practiced way more often, and more seriously than most the people on this forum.
Hmmm, lots of goons and idiots, eh? Well, er, what makes some people goons and/or idiots?

What made McCartney practice more than everyone? Why was he so bad at formal training? Why did he not even learn to read music? Or learn how to sing properly? Seems odd that he sort of accidentally practiced in such a successful manner, and that anyone else could simply do the same.
Old 26th July 2010
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
Hmmm, lots of goons and idiots, eh? Well, er, what makes some people goons and/or idiots?

What made McCartney practice more than everyone? Why was he so bad at formal training? Why did he not even learn to read music? Or learn how to sing properly? Seems odd that he sort of accidentally practiced in such a successful manner, and that anyone else could simply do the same.
I'll say it again

Susan Polgar (born April 19, 1969, as Polgár Zsuzsanna and often known as Zsuzsa Polgár) is a Hungarian-American chess player.

Polgar and her two younger sisters, Grandmaster Judit and International Master Sofia, were part of an educational experiment carried out by their father László Polgár, who sought to prove that children could make exceptional achievements if trained in a specialist subject from a very early age. "Geniuses are made, not born," was László's thesis. He and his wife Klara educated their three daughters at home, with chess as the specialist subject.

At age 4, Polgar won her first chess tournament, the Budapest Girl's Under-11 Championship, with a 10–0 score. In 1982, at the age of 12, she won the World Under 16 (Girls) Championship. Despite restrictions on her freedom to play in international tournaments, by 1984 at age 15 Polgar had become the top-rated female chess player in the world.[3]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kafka View Post
I've seen it too many times in too many fields to belive otherwise now; the word "talent" mostly describes a talent for practice. While there's no denying that some people are more efficient than others, it's the tolerance/joy for doing something over and over again while it improves that builds skill.
agree with this, though I think a persons ability to self discipline (ability to practice) is taught by mentors/ based off of ones life experiences, not a talent.
Old 26th July 2010
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iankaravas View Post
read my last post.
I did.

So?
Old 26th July 2010
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iankaravas View Post
I'll say it again

Susan Polgar (born April 19, 1969, as Polgár Zsuzsanna and often known as Zsuzsa Polgár) is a Hungarian-American chess player.

Polgar and her two younger sisters, Grandmaster Judit and International Master Sofia, were part of an educational experiment carried out by their father László Polgár, who sought to prove that children could make exceptional achievements if trained in a specialist subject from a very early age. "Geniuses are made, not born," was László's thesis. He and his wife Klara educated their three daughters at home, with chess as the specialist subject.

At age 4, Polgar won her first chess tournament, the Budapest Girl's Under-11 Championship, with a 10–0 score. In 1982, at the age of 12, she won the World Under 16 (Girls) Championship. Despite restrictions on her freedom to play in international tournaments, by 1984 at age 15 Polgar had become the top-rated female chess player in the world.[3]
Okay...so László Polgár taught McCartney how to write songs...got it!
Old 26th July 2010
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
Okay...so László Polgár taught McCartney how to write songs...got it!
if nothing more its a proof of concept...you should be asking those questions to McCartney not me.
I dont even like the beatles...
Old 26th July 2010
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iankaravas View Post
unless you have a mental or physical disability, we all have more or less the same potential
If you are saying that it's only hard work that stopped me from being Charlie Parker or Stravinsky then you're the idiot.
Old 26th July 2010
  #139
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the voice is like any other instrument, it takes practice and dedication to master it. a good singer has done what any instrumentalist worth their salt has done: they shed hard for years and improved their craft a little bit every day. craft is the key.

it's true that unlike many other instruments, some people grow up singing with little or no formal training, in their church, at school, or from a musical family etc, and have a natural or effortless sense of pitch, feel, or timing that others need to acquire with training and hard work. but that's not to say that those "naturally gifted" singers can't benifit from training and knowledge of their craft : they only get better!
Old 26th July 2010
  #140
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A few things to help , first is embrace your own vocal tone , learn the sound and how you can manipulate it know your range in singing as well . I personally sound solid IN the Key of A , even though i can go higher . Some modern songs if i was to sing along I would lack due to the key . 2nd Also vocal groove is so important , that brings life to the song . Power and passion is another . I produced a technically amazing singer great pitch and control but there was a lack of passion . Too schooled (operatic) so no rock n roll in him I had to really coach more "soul" out of him .
Also sometimes it can take 5 times longer to get good than some of natural talents . But if you keep working at it . You will get it . So don't give up .
Just think if Mick Jagger and Neil young or Jack white can be successful with their voices , then we all have a chance
Old 26th July 2010
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucho View Post
If you are saying that it's only hard work that stopped me from being Charlie Parker or Stravinsky then you're the idiot.
id say the idiot is you. pessimist. nobody wins by saying "there's no way I can win".
Old 26th July 2010
  #142
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After listening to your vid , Your voice has very similar qualities to Richard Butler from Psychedlic Furs - So if you don't dig your voice , see how Richard sounds , perhaps that may help in direction and realization of your own style .

YouTube - psychedelic furs Heaven
Old 26th July 2010
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iankaravas View Post
id say the idiot is you. pessimist. nobody wins by saying "there's no way I can win".
Win ? Win what ?

Actually I'm very happy with what I can do as a musician. I'm very optimistic about continuing and progressing. I'm not and never will be a genius. I guess I'm just lazy :{
Old 26th July 2010
  #144
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I don't teach music so I don't know whether anyone can learn to sing, but I do know this. Thirty-six years ago I was in a band with a guy named Delmar Brown. We were backing up vocalists, he played the piano, and his singing made no impression on me at all. I'd say he had no particular talent as a singer. Listen to him now.

Old 26th July 2010
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iankaravas View Post
anyone who believes in natural talent is an idiot. end of story.

all skills are acquired. practice.
Yes, this is usually what people without that natural talent will say.
Old 26th July 2010
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
Well I may be an idiot (naturally), but are you saying that if any 2 people practice the exact same amount, they will be equally skilled?
No, and you are not an idiot. Ridiculous premise being thrown about here.


Obviously Stevie Wonder's talent is no different than anyone else's. With enough time and practice, anyone could learn to sing and play just like him!
Old 26th July 2010
  #147
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Like I said...

Lot's of people learn to play a GTR.
Some are never very good and some are fantastic players.

Vocals are no different.

This is not that complicated.

People make the mistake of thinking that singing should be easier than it is because almost everyone posses the instrument.
But just like a lot of people own GTRs, you have to learn to develop the instrument.
Just having it doesn't inherently mean that you can make music with it to any degree.

Like I also said, there are cultural influences, mental and other influences that effect how the music you create sounds.
Old 26th July 2010
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisbieinstein View Post
We were backing up vocalists, he played the piano, and his singing made no impression on me at all. I'd say he had no particular talent as a singer. Listen to him now.


His singing made no impression on you so you concluded he had no particular talent as a singer? Failed logic.
Old 26th July 2010
  #149
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Can anybody learn to swim?

Can anybody learn to swim? Yes.

Can anybody learn to swim and win an Olympic gold medal? Hmmmmmm... I'll let you guys finish the analogy...
Old 26th July 2010
  #150
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Can anybody learn how to sing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11

Well I may be an idiot (naturally), but are you saying that if any 2 people practice the exact same amount, they will be equally skilled?
No. Clearly there IS natural talent. People who practice the exact same thing certainly may develop at different rates. But anyone who BELIEVES that talent is all
there is is in for a hard fall.
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