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Can anybody learn how to sing? Ribbon Microphones
Old 28th July 2010
  #271
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
Wow. Now you really have got me. You don't know what singing is?
No, what is it? Is it really something you must learn? Can't everyone already sing?
Old 28th July 2010
  #272
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OK, thread over.
Old 28th July 2010
  #273
Gear Maniac
 

learn to sing

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoring4films View Post
I agree with the above. From my experience as a voice teacher and as a former struggling student, I firmly believe that anyone can learn how to sing. Some people pick it up quicker than others, but beyond that I believe it's a skill/talent available to all. I wouldn't say that every teacher has the ability to believe in and develop the talent in every student though. IMHO, a vocal student is better off if they're willing to try different teachers until they find one that's a good match for their learning style.
+2


Stephen.
Old 28th July 2010
  #274
Gear Maniac
 

learn to sing

Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
That's almost impossible to determine since most people don't do it. And who is to determine who has talent. Most people who practice like Coltrane, every waking hour, believe they must have some talent worth the effort. Though the great jazz pianist Bill Evans maintained that he did NOT have a great talent. That in school there were several kids who played better and were much more talented. He just worked harder.

Talent is only a perhaps small part of the equation. The other is belief in yourself/head big enough to withstand the critics, friends and girl friends who call you crazy or selfish or self absorbed and yet another still is just plain hard work.

It's easy for others to say some will never make it no matter how hard they work, simply because no one really knows.

I am convinced that given that one works hard enough, knows what to work on and how to work on the things one needs to work on, that one knows how to focus and concentrate on items solidly and repetitively, has goals that can be met on a graduated scale and that one has an undying belief in himself, said person can be as great as he wants to be.

I truly love this I wish I have a chance to work with you.

Please except my respect from me. This is great. I want to read this over and over.

Stephen.
Old 28th July 2010
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
No, what is it? Is it really something you must learn? Can't everyone already sing?
True!

Back to screaming, baby's apparently scream in perfect form. No hurty on the cords...
Old 28th July 2010
  #276
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learn to sing

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba View Post
I could have predicted most of the responses that people have posted in this thread.
I have read and heard them for many years.
I myself have even thought some to be the truth in the past.

People are mystified by the human voice when it is an accomplished vocalist or singer.
It doesn't matter that if it is Bob Dylan or Jose Carreras.

I don't have an answer as to why this is, but I have always suspected that people come up with the simplistic and wrong-headed explanations for why some artists and people are successful or simply pleasant to listen to because they themselves have a voice, yet they and most people they know can't sing.
It is far easier to say that people who are good came by it naturally or were "born with and innate ability" than it is to contemplate actual hard work and practice.
The same thing also seems to work for people explaining extraordinary abilities on musical instruments like guitar and other more common instruments that people are familiar with.
They will acknowledge that a violin player has practiced his craft for years, but a guitar player who really doesn't have the technical musical abilities of the average symphonic musician is thought to have gained his abilities by genetics.

It really all comes down to being educated in music.
Statements like "opera has become a stylized and un-natural way of singing" only show gross ignorance.
I won't even explain why this is a un-true statement from an person who is obviously un-educated in vocal technique.
I can only hope that people don't take it as the truth because it only further confuses and mystifies what is long established fact about vocal technique.
It just has to be ignored, but I fear some people will accept it because it explains things away so easily.

I will say this and if people want to argue with me they can.
I have formed most of my views from things that I have learned from and asked from my wife who has a degree in music from a prestigious music school.
I tend to ask questions a bout things that I can't do or don't know about from people who are really good or are really well educated in the subject I am curious about.

So I ask...
Who here has studied voice?
Who has a clue beyond what they have personally decided must be true about vocal technique?
(I bet I could tell who has and has not from the responses posted in this thread.)
+2.

I'm a singer.

Stephen.
Old 28th July 2010
  #277
Gear Maniac
 

learn to sing

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
True!

Back to screaming, baby's apparently scream in perfect form. No hurty on the cords...

I think this is very very true.
Old 28th July 2010
  #278
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henryrobinett's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
No, what is it? Is it really something you must learn? Can't everyone already sing?
No. You're missing the points that Danny and I are making. Work, drilling and hard consistent practice, IF you want to be really good. But of course everyone can sing, if they have vocal cords and can hear, distinguish and reproduce pitch and rhythm.

SG you are doing this thing again. Just trying to be abstruse because you're bored or stoned or something. You're not making good sense here.

Singing is the act of replicating pitch in time, otherwise described as rhythm, with the voice - vocal cords, breath, diaphragm, whatever else, to create music, most often using syllabic content and the symbology of words, - poetry in the form of lyrics. It is often done in popular song forms, folk melodies and the like. Singing normally represents the primary musical voice, or melody, of a song and often, with lyrics communicates concepts of love, desire, political dissemination, existential alienation, concepts of beauty and aesthetics, poetical rambling, anything or nothing at all. Songs often have meaning but they actually don't have to mean anything, and often enough don't, even when they pretend to.

But there are supporting voices that sing, most often harmony or unison lines.

Singing is probably the oldest form of making music, along with tapping rhythms on whatever is available. Given the proper physical attributes, everyone can sing. Not everyone can sing in tune/pitch or in time/rhythm. Singing is, however, an art form, in in order to do it well, takes skill and in order to do it very well, generally requires training, formally or not.
Old 28th July 2010
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post

SG you are doing this thing again. Just trying to be abstruse because you're bored or stoned or something. You're not making good sense here.
fuuck

I'm making perfect sense. In order for the op question to have any meaning, it must be decided to what level.

You admitted yourself, everyone can sing. Left at that the question is meaningless.
Old 28th July 2010
  #280
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I don't really get what you guys are arguing about...

and sorry to the snoots for referencing pop singers...

but, what do you all make of Michael Jackson versus his siblings...

now we know he took lessons throughout his life and worked very hard...

but certainly so did his brothers and sisters...Janet certainly must of worked hard and took lessons, but is she a fraction of the singer Michael is? Not even close...Michael took over lead singing at the age of 8...huge star...anyone would say, wow he is blessed with vocal cords and natural ability...his older brothers were way more experienced, but could they ever have the same sound and impact vocally...I don't think so....
Old 28th July 2010
  #281
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henryrobinett's Avatar
Can anybody learn how to sing?

Of course everyone can sing. But I covered a lot more than that in my definition. That everyone can learn to sing was what I've been saying all along. That's why this argument is so confused and dense and makes no sense.
Old 28th July 2010
  #282
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
Of course everyone can sing. But I covered a lot more than that in my definition. That everyone can learn to sing was what I've been saying all along. That's why this argument is do confused and dense and makes no sense.
Agreed.

Old 28th July 2010
  #283
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henryrobinett's Avatar
Can anybody learn how to sing?

Number one re Michael we're talking talent. Also we're probably talking a lot of hard dedicated practicing. I think he lived in a world full of imagination, probably to escape his dad, and worked on singing and dancing till exhausted every day.

Teachers can only go so far. A student ultimately teaches himself anyway, with direction and planning by their teachers. But the student does what he's going to do. He may practice his lessons or not, resenting being forced by parents.
Old 28th July 2010
  #284
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Having just spent a couple nights listening to 4 sides of this record, I still say that there is more coming from this man than could ever be learned.

Enjoy!

Old 28th July 2010
  #285
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henryrobinett's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen.S.C View Post
I truly love this I wish I have a chance to work with you.

Please except my respect from me. This is great. I want to read this over and over.

Stephen.
BTW thank you for this Stephen! That was a very nice thing to say.
Old 28th July 2010
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
Number one re Michael we're talking talent. Also we're probably talking a lot of hard dedicated practicing.
Right, but the point is there are differences between people...like beautiful faces or IQs...

Michael was obviously very talented from the age of 5...with his brothers, they all did a lot of hard dedicated practicing...

but Michael's voice and ability stood out in a very big way right from the start...
Old 28th July 2010
  #287
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I think of two things, they are as important as each other:

1. If the singer can hold the key. Most people can be trained to do this, it's just a matter of practice and being about to hear what you are singing.

2. The actual tone of the singer's voice. This is almost as important as 1. A lot of people have nice sounding voices but just can't hold key.

So if you have a singer with a nice voice and they can hold the tune then you'll generally have a decent singer. I can sing along in key but my voice sounds f*cking awful, so I'm not a very good singer!

Do you guys agree with this?
Old 28th July 2010
  #288
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Xrocker's Avatar
 

I've heard that one can have great difficulties teaching singing skills to pigs.
Old 28th July 2010
  #289
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Sk106's Avatar
 

(haven't read any of the previous thread)
I've met a handful people in my life, who could not sing - as in finding and singing the pitch with their voice that was given to them. And they really tried, for a long time. It seems to me, that there are 1-2% out there, that will have to put down such an immense training to even find given notes with their voice, that any attempt to try to sing decently might be a waste of time. However it is impossible for them to learn ... with enough monstrous work over 10-20 years, maybe. I guess only god knows.

As for the rest of us, learning to sing is something everyone can do, with time. Perhaps not sing well enough so that people would pay to hear it, but sing quite well nevetheless. To some, singing just is second nature, it's like another form of speaking and expressing themselves. Nobody told them how to, they just did. And a few of those have the good fortune of a suitable developed voice and throat. Those can learn to sing very well indeed, even become world reknown. But even those "elefants in the jungle" learns to sing.

Overall, I say yes. Pretty much everybody can learn to sing. But not as many can learn to sing well enough to where they feel they are expressing their inner feelings perfectly or can express the desired result.
Old 28th July 2010
  #290
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henryrobinett's Avatar
Can anybody learn how to sing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11

Right, but the point is there are differences between people...like beautiful faces or IQs...

Michael was obviously very talented from the age of 5...with his brothers, they all did a lot of hard dedicated practicing...

but Michael's voice and ability stood out in a very big way right from the start...
Yes, true true. But you also cannot ignore the fact the clearly he worked his ass off. He had natural ability. But that will take you only so far.
Old 28th July 2010
  #291
Gear Nut
 

From being unable to match a pitch, to becoming good at sight singing and told, unprompted, that I have a good voice, I personally know that you can start from what seemed like zero to being able to sing. Lots of time and work were invested. While I would never consider myself a "singer," I feel, as a pianist, and a person involved in making music, that being able to sing, improves one's overall musicality and should be pursued by anyone involved in making music.
Old 28th July 2010
  #292
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James Lugo's Avatar
 

I think most people can learn to sing to a degree. After being a voice coach for decades and having taught 1000's of singers I think of all the instruments, natural born talent plays the biggest roll in singing because you are the instrument. You can improve your tone but you will always to one degree or another sound like you, which isn't a bad thing it's just a limiting thing if you like singers that don't sound like you. lol The guy who is nasally and sounds like Neil Young but really wants to be Dio, he is an unhappy guy. Now if he wanted to sound like Neil Young then he is stylin'.
Old 28th July 2010
  #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba View Post
It really all comes down to being educated in music.
Statements like "opera has become a stylized and un-natural way of singing" only show gross ignorance.
I won't even explain why this is a un-true statement from an person who is obviously un-educated in vocal technique.
I can only hope that people don't take it as the truth because it only further confuses and mystifies what is long established fact about vocal technique.
It just has to be ignored, but I fear some people will accept it because it explains things away so easily.

I will say this and if people want to argue with me they can.
I have formed most of my views from things that I have learned from and asked from my wife who has a degree in music from a prestigious music school.
I tend to ask questions a bout things that I can't do or don't know about from people who are really good or are really well educated in the subject I am curious about.

So I ask...
Who here has studied voice?
Who has a clue beyond what they have personally decided must be true about vocal technique?
(I bet I could tell who has and has not from the responses posted in this thread.)
Dude, you are comedy gold. Maybe we can get your wife in as a guest with her own forum? LMFAO... The fact is I have forgotten far more about vocal technique and its history than you ever will know. The lineage of my teachers (yes I have studied extensively) stretches back to Bel Canto singer/composers and the professori system of Old Italy. It's not my fault you have limited knowledge on the subject and it's massively erroneous of you to think the way you do. To hear you holding forth on this subject with your minute post-maestro based "knowledge" of the history of vocal technique, is like a blind man holding the tail of an elephant and thinking it's the whole thing. My only fear is people will listen to you.
Old 28th July 2010
  #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba View Post
It really all comes down to being educated in music.
Statements like "opera has become a stylized and un-natural way of singing" only show gross ignorance.
I won't even explain why this is a un-true statement from an person who is obviously un-educated in vocal technique.
I can only hope that people don't take it as the truth because it only further confuses and mystifies what is long established fact about vocal technique.
It just has to be ignored, but I fear some people will accept it because it explains things away so easily.

I will say this and if people want to argue with me they can.
I have formed most of my views from things that I have learned from and asked from my wife who has a degree in music from a prestigious music school.
I tend to ask questions a bout things that I can't do or don't know about from people who are really good or are really well educated in the subject I am curious about.
tutt Now, that's just rude.

While I have no academic qualification in singing, I do have two Bachelor degrees in performance (Royal Academy and Guildhall) a Masters and a Doctorate in music from the Royal Academy. But I count these as almost worthless compared to my 25 years of professional experience, 10 of which were as a session singer (albeit a second string one).

My wife has no professional qualifications but, during her 25 year professional career, she has recorded for Michael Jackson, Stephen Sondheim and James Horner (to name but three). Does her opinion count? Maybe not.

In that case, between us, we are on friendly terms with over 50 professional singers. Among them are first call session singers, members of The Royal Opera Chorus and teachers from several London music colleges and contemporary vocal academies. Most of them teach privately and have a list of highly successful clients from the pop and classical fields. We meet these singers regularly on professional and social occasions. We've had parties at our house that look like a tea break at a choir recording. On almost every occasion that we meet, we talk about singing. I've been talking (and listening) about singing almost weekly with professional Opera and pop singers and teachers for 25 years.

Why is my opinion borne of "gross ignorance"?

My most relevant qualification for this thread is 5th Dan Black Belt in Shotokan. I'll use it to kick your ass if I find out where you live! heh

Last edited by Deleted User; 28th July 2010 at 08:42 PM.. Reason: Grammaritical badliness
Old 28th July 2010
  #295
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You two are idots.
...and liars.
Old 28th July 2010
  #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba View Post
You two are idots.
...and liars.
You got me. I don't have a black belt.
Old 28th July 2010
  #297
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Mark Kaufman's Avatar
 

So then--we're all agreed?
Old 28th July 2010
  #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azriel_7 View Post


I agree with you totally on this.
Anyone can learn what singing is and how the notes sound but that doesn't mean they can reproduce that note correctly.
But well applied autotune can fix this almost transparently. It won't make the song automatically engaging for the listener.

One thing I don't think has been mentioned thus far is dramatic flair. All the best singers have the ability to make you believe they know what they are singing about.
A 16 year old girl singing about heartbreak and desolation is never convincing, regardless how in-tune and in-time they sing.

Empathy is ridiculously important. Even a track like Eminem's "Stan" that contains no "singing" makes you feel something, simply because the guy is such a great actor.
Old 28th July 2010
  #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRB View Post

Even a track like Eminem's "Stan" that contains no "singing" makes you feel something, simply because the guy is such a great actor.
Can anybody learn to rap?!

It's funny, many feel rapping is easy (and maybe compared to singing, it is), but it's always fairly hilarious when someone who clearly can't rap attempts to...
Old 28th July 2010
  #300
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I'm closing this till I can clean it up. This threads are becoming an eye soar around here guys.
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