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Pergo, Dupont Laminate or Parque for studio flooring? Consoles
Old 22nd August 2007
  #31
Gear Nut
 
Evil_G's Avatar
 

I'm gonna be different and say acid etched concrete.

Have you seen what they can do with concrete these days as a finish material?
Maybe put down a thin layer to level it out and freshen it up...then etch with chemicals, then seal.

There are lots of contractors doing this kind of work these days.....I defy you to find something stronger , or longer lasting,....

Neal

edit * my bad, nathan already mentioned concrete
Old 22nd August 2007
  #32
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

The 2 best-sounding studio floors I have exer experienced were Media A and Columbia 30th St. in NYC, both now long gone and both hardwood strip over diagonal fir plank subflooring over joists. Makes sense that it would sound nice, because it's essentially a giant guitar top.

The third best sounding floor was in a house. Painted 4X8 sheets of plywood with the joints fillied in with what looked like black silicone caulk. Don't know if it was on joists or a slab, but I'd have to suspect joists. Way cheap and looked nicer than you might think.

Just food for thought.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #33
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
I'm a little suprised to see so many mentions of finished concrete as a studio floor...

I've always thought it didn't sound that hot, not to mention that it's pretty dang uncomfertable to stand on for long periods of time.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #34
I'd like to see some rock solid scientific measurements of the difference between wood, laminate, and stained/or epoxied concrete. I understand that reflection times can be measured, bass nodes can be measured, etc...but how does one measure "mojo" from the floor? Maybe there are slight differences in high frequency content, or the time it takes for sound to bounce around (likely differences would be in microseconds) but if the rest of the room is in order, I don't see it making a huge difference other than frequency response in minutia. Different woods have significantly different densities too. If there are slight differences and the room is large enough it might be beneficial to have different floor textures for different sounds. Even carpet can be cool for a certain effect (again as long as the rest of the room is good like bass trapping, clouds or high ceilings, etc).
Old 22nd August 2007
  #35
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
I've noticed that specifically, with drums there's a pretty big difference between "wood" of some type... oak, maple or parquet and concrete. This was with the same kits, same drummers... different rooms over multiple years.

Biggest difference is the bass drum, concrete seems to "suck" the bottom octave away. Snares sound quite a bit different too. Usually NOT in a good way. Splattier? More white noise factor... putting the kit on a carpet doesn't help much. Just sucks more tone IMO but it does help the snare & cymbals to some degree...

Not to say that I think it's impossible to get good sounds in a room with a concrete floor... just takes more work.

Biggest thing for me though is the comfort. After standing on a concrete floor for a full days session my legs are usually killing... that alone is enough to put me off concrete. My old room in East Rutherford was half parquet & half carpet... that seemed to work really well all around.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #36
Gear Maniac
 

I have concrete floors. I rented a sander to scuff it up and stained it see through black then clearcoat. You dont have to worry about people scuffing it and you can put down throw rugs for texture. My drum room souds great too.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #37
Gear Maniac
 

Man I have a problems with my "n" or something SOUNDS,SOUNDS,SOUNDS,SOUNDS,SOUNDS...... There got it.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #38
Gear Head
My studio has pergo, (or equivalent), flooring. I'd say go for real wood floors. It's just not the same.
Mark Miller
Old 23rd August 2007
  #39
Lives for gear
 
Eganmedia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs View Post
I'm a little suprised to see so many mentions of finished concrete as a studio floor...

I've always thought it didn't sound that hot, not to mention that it's pretty dang uncomfertable to stand on for long periods of time.
Concrete acts a lot like stone sonically. I've been in concrete and stone churches that sound pretty awesome. Also, the floor is only one component of the room. The rigidity of the shell, and the shape and the finish materials of the walls and ceilings have a whole lot to do with the overall sound. A nice, thick oriental rug on a suitable pad sounds and feels the the same on concrete as it does on Pergo or wood.

For a *whole* lot less money than installing a real hardwood floor, you can finish a concrete slab, buy 3 big old worn oriental rugs and pads, and hang finish grade plywood clouds with 703 backing from the ceiling. You tame the reflections from the floor with the rugs, tame the ugly sheetrock reflections with the 703 backed clouds, and use the angles of the clouds to diffuse the reflections with a pleasant sound. I'm telling you from experience, it ain't bad.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #40
Lives for gear
 
Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamz View Post
Saw bamboo planks last night that were totally different from the ones in the editing room. It had a dull finish not shiney and there was a very slight wavey texture to the plank. Got my attention. Wondering if the guy was mistaken about the flooring in his building
Is it the bamboo planks you were referring to?
yeah i hear they are as hard or harder than maple
Old 23rd August 2007
  #41
Lives for gear
 
Disjointed's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eganmedia View Post
If you have an existing concrete floor, check out Kemiko concrete stains
+1

you can actually use wood stains as well (so i hear) the important part is the top coat...

stained concrete = way cheaper and better looking then laminate IMO



(you can also rent a concrete floor grinder to polish it up, bring out the stone look)
Old 23rd August 2007
  #42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs View Post
Are there any known moisture problems? That would be one thing to ponder... some kind of concrete sealent would take care of that... but what I'd wonder about, is if a finish floor was mounted directly to the rubber it might be a little 'bouncy' without a subfloor.

It might be best to check with the company that makes the rubber backing & see what they recommend...

I assume you're not floating the floor? How about the walls?
Pergo or a laminate will not be used at this point.
I don't believe there are any existing water issues. No apparent sign of water damage or stains.

Current thought process is:
1.- Prepare/level the concrete slab and then glue wood (not determined yet) to the slab. Put more energy/money into the walls and any floating acoustic panels attached to the ceiling.

2.- Prepare/level the concrete slab, moisture barrier, 3/4" plywood subfloor, glue wood on top.


Todays task...getting estimates for moving the existing duct work.
More fun to talk gear!
Old 23rd August 2007
  #43
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamz View Post
Pergo or a laminate will not be used at this point.
I don't believe there are any existing water issues. No apparent sign of water damage or stains.

Current thought process is:
1.- Prepare/level the concrete slab and then glue wood (not determined yet) to the slab. Put more energy/money into the walls and any floating acoustic panels attached to the ceiling.

2.- Prepare/level the concrete slab, moisture barrier, 3/4" plywood subfloor, glue wood on top.


Todays task...getting estimates for moving the existing duct work.
More fun to talk gear!
i'd do a layer of 1/2 inch and then another 1/2 or at least a 1/4 and cover the seams..that what was done at sigma ..layers of plywood that covered seams of each layer..if ya really want to spend the time put asphalt between concrete and wood..that is the best..teh asphlat is "springy" and cheaper than a poly pad
Old 23rd August 2007
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
i'd do a layer of 1/2 inch and then another 1/2 or at least a 1/4 and cover the seams..that what was done at sigma ..layers of plywood that covered seams of each layer..if ya really want to spend the time put asphalt between concrete and wood..that is the best..teh asphlat is "springy" and cheaper than a poly pad
LOL! Mike, I don't have a huge budget and...I don't own the property or the building. Concrete floor is already nice and solid. No basement...nothing below me...nothing above me. I like your idea of the 3/4" hardwood along the lines of maple or perhaps bamboo. Thanks buddy. I do appreciate the feedback.
FWIW till this day I still consider Sigma to have been the best built studio in the city. I was always amazed at the doors and the amazingly clean bathrooms LOL. I know Joe was especially proud of that. I only wish the money was available to build a place remotely close to the house that Joe built.
Hoping to see everyone at AES. Let me know what's goin on.

Thanks
Old 23rd August 2007
  #45
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
'Ya know, reading all that, what ever happened with Sigma anyway?

I was there in I guess it was summer '03 or '04?! Few years back... I think it was July and the AC upstairs in the 9k room was busted. I remember it being HOT!!!

The construction company guy had just bought the block and uhh...was it George with the impossible last name?! Gear guy from Angel Mountain... he was giving me the grand tour & speaking of various remodling plans... downstairs rooms had already been gutted, or mostly gutted...

From the way ya'll are speaking I'm assuming it's been closed for a while.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #46
Lives for gear
 
Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs View Post
'Ya know, reading all that, what ever happened with Sigma anyway?

I was there in I guess it was summer '03 or '04?! Few years back... I think it was July and the AC upstairs in the 9k room was busted. I remember it being HOT!!!

The construction company guy had just bought the block and uhh...was it George with the impossible last name?! Gear guy from Angel Mountain... he was giving me the grand tour & speaking of various remodling plans... downstairs rooms had already been gutted, or mostly gutted...

From the way ya'll are speaking I'm assuming it's been closed for a while.
it's open and i hate it being called sigma because it really isn't


george hajioannou is with studio logic sound [his company] great guy, he and my father are building and selling the sigma passive di boxes from NOS and i will be reviewing gear for him

the owner "mario" tore the whole place apart..what he is rebuilding looks nice but it's a real shame that sigma is no longer sigma in vibe or spirit

they accidently left gear in a wharehouse and didn't pay the bills, some guy got all the amps [twins, supers, mesa, ampeg b15, PLUS a mtr 90 ampex atr 104, and quested monitors [about 10k used] for like 2000 dollars TOTAL

he sold the stuff on ebay and the ampeg b15 alone fetched over 1600 dollars

it's just real sad ..too bad the way the industry went and me getting sick or we'd still own the place..

i have a home mix/od room now...i kinda like waking up and walking into the control room..i even have to pass thru it to peeheh
Old 24th August 2007
  #47
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Huh. That's sort of good news I guess. Several months after I passed through there George said he thought the new owner might turn the whole complex into condos and not even bother with keeping a recording studio open & operating.

From speaking to Mario breifly on that one day he seemed like a good guy, had some big plans for the block, what with the nightclub & all. I guess it could've turned into a "Hit Factory" situation pretty easily...

Shame about the fleabay stuff but it happens. I think I saw that B15 listed... just a couple months/weeks ago right?

Are you still involved over there? At the old Sigma?
Old 24th August 2007
  #48
Gear Nut
 
Scott@RealTraps's Avatar
 

Parkay?


. . . . .



butter



heh heh
Old 24th August 2007
  #49
Lives for gear
 
Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs View Post
Huh. That's sort of good news I guess. Several months after I passed through there George said he thought the new owner might turn the whole complex into condos and not even bother with keeping a recording studio open & operating.

From speaking to Mario breifly on that one day he seemed like a good guy, had some big plans for the block, what with the nightclub & all. I guess it could've turned into a "Hit Factory" situation pretty easily...

Shame about the fleabay stuff but it happens. I think I saw that B15 listed... just a couple months/weeks ago right?

Are you still involved over there? At the old Sigma?
on amp ..yeah you saw it on ebay..i talked to the winnig bidder about its history

on studio/mario..no man ..i got into a big argument..i wanted all my grammy and gold record award stuff and it turned fugly...i don't get how someone could promote that which is no longer there and theirs in the first place..i got my awards and some of my dads old ones..mario still has some from the mid 70's

i am doing my own thing and just starting to rebuild my clientle from the past while trying to expand to rock which i love..been working with alot of indie rock bands and my old R&B clients are discovering that i am not dead LOL

totally focused on making music..i love that for over 30 years i can say i never went to work at a "job", i worked at what i loved..not many people in the world can say that
Old 6th November 2007
  #50
Gear Head
 

I'm remodeling a studio room on the second floor of my house. This room is used only for tracking guitar amps and mixing. I'm going with all hardwood flooring. I chose Lauzon hardwood because their protective layer is the toughest. But I'm struggling with a few choices...

Does it matter what kind of wood I get, i.e. Tigerwood, Santos Mahogany, Brazilian Cheery, etc? Probably not...

Engineered or real wood? Can get either one.

Nail it, glue it, or float it?

Also, what kind of padding will work the best underneath the hardwood?

Boy, this remodeling project is becoming a real nightmare!!!!!!!!
Old 6th November 2007
  #51
I ended up buying up a little over 800 sq ft of bamboo wood flooring...not engineered.
The instructions that came with the bamboo have directions for gluing as well as nailing. Again, this is going on a solid concrete slab ground level no water issues.

The pro flooring companies advise a subfloor and nailing. Moisture strip followed by 1/4" plywood sheets with another layer of 3/8" plywood cross seamed over that with the bamboo then nailed down into the 2 layers of plywood. No glue anywhere. This is certainlly the more expensive route. My design person believes if the concrete is prepped properly gluing should be fine. The concrete would have to be cleaned up to some degree and leveled in some areas.

Still unsure of direction. Any further thoughts?
Old 6th November 2007
  #52
Gear Head
 

Oh yes, if the concrete's been leveled and moisture guarded, gluing is the way to go downstairs. That's what I did, 7 years and no problems. Putting a plywood layer downstairs for nailing is probably an overkill and will raise your floor level.

There's a few more choices upstairs though and I'm just wondering which one is better for the music.
Old 6th November 2007
  #53
Quote:
Originally Posted by 85db View Post
Oh yes, if the concrete's been leveled and moisture guarded, gluing is the way to go downstairs. That's what I did, 7 years and no problems. Putting a plywood layer downstairs for nailing is probably an overkill and will raise your floor level.

There's a few more choices upstairs though and I'm just wondering which one is better for the music.
Might I ask what you did (and spent) on leveling and moisture guarding before gluing
and how many sq ft did you do?
Old 6th November 2007
  #54
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamz View Post
Might I ask what you did (and spent) on leveling and moisture guarding before gluing
and how many sq ft did you do?
I paid somebody to do it.
Old 6th November 2007
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by 85db View Post
I paid somebody to do it.
I'm having a hard time getting a flooring company to do the work since I'm not purchasing the flooring from them. Also trying to figure cost difference between floor prep and subfloor. Was yours an expense step?
Old 6th November 2007
  #56
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamz View Post
I'm having a hard time getting a flooring company to do the work since I'm not purchasing the flooring from them. Also trying to figure cost difference between floor prep and subfloor. Was yours an expense step?
I don't think I ever got the itemized breakdown. Neither I had quotes both ways (subfloor vs the floor prep). I was just comparing quotes for quotes.

From what I remember -- and I might be wrong since it was 7 years ago -- the subfloor is more expensive since you still need to prep the floor, otherwise your subfloor might rotten. It raises the level of your hardwood but I think it dampens the walking noise a little. I think subfloor is mandatory for the real hardwood since it expands and contracts. All in all, engineered wood glued on a prep floor seems like a tried and tested formula for the slab/concrete. But again, don't quote me on this, I'm not a flooring specialist.

The reason many flooring companies won't work with your hardwood is because they make money on selling you theirs. Do this: locate a busy flooring store that sells a variety of flooring materials direct to customer, the one that doesn't have its own installation dept. They normally have a list of independent contractors they work with. I'm sure one of them will do your hardwood.
Old 6th November 2007
  #57
Lives for gear
 

I installed parket in the contorl room and both tracking rooms. Less than a $1.00 a sq ft and I can do 70 sq ft an hour. The glue thing is easy as long as you use the right trough and go easy on the application. The floor holds up well and sounds better than concrete it covers.
Old 6th November 2007
  #58
Gear Addict
 
Lee Knight's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eganmedia View Post
If you have an existing concrete floor, check out Kemiko concrete stains ( you can see examples of my live room and a bunch of others at FM Design Ltd : Architectural & Acoustic Design and Consulting). Mine has been in for 6+ years and looks great - way better than the wood flooring in my control room. I have a lot of wood on the walls and ceilings for its sound, and I throw area rugs around when the concrete is too harsh. But overall, it sounds great, wears like iron, and looks really good. People always ask me what the floor is made of. If applied well, it doesn't look like concrete at all.
Abso-freakin-lutely!!! I love my oxidized concrete floor. It's blood and muddy red and looks completely natural.

BTW, there is no sound difference between Pergo, Wood, asphalt tile, concrete, etc. They're all reflective and extremely close in absorption coefficients. Once they're laid over solid concrete? It's all the same...
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