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Trying to make Kick loud without clipping Drum Microphones
Old 16th August 2007
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas G View Post
Try to leave a lot of headroom. The loudest elements peaks around -12dB or so in my mixes. Sounds much smoother and clearer to me (kinda analog) :-)
I track in peaking around this level. I have not mixed this low though...I usually mix louder...I may try what you are doing though...any hints on how you get it loud after? I mean we all know mastering is the way, but I have heard MEs say .."you want a loud song? Mix it loud"....So I'm interested in what you do in that area.
Old 16th August 2007
  #32
Gear Maniac
 

All of the above of course and mainly those. If you are using a compressor either on the kick, the drum bus or the 2 bus try it with shortest release and playing around with the attack length, sometimes there is a setting where the kicks just burst through. & as others have said there is often a 'knock' you can find with eq.

A couple of other suggestions that might help if used subtly (or unsubtly if you are making hiphop or techno or similar);
- use a bitrate reducer plug-in (below about 14 bits you get 'crunch' which can actually really help kicks and snares despite the obsession with digital clarity)
- distortion; eg a fuzz box type pedal, distortion plug in,
- or just turning up the channel input on an analogue mixer or in fact any piece of analogue gear til its just clipping and pulling back on the fader/volume control.

I've not tried this for this purpose but it might work
- oxford inflator, increases subjective loudness/adds overtones/does something

Speaking of magic I think some boxes just 'get' kicks. My favourite is the ISA131.

I knew one house music producer who had a crossover from a PA system that when he ran tracks through it turned kicks into little grenades. It was probably broken but it certainly *worked*.

All basic stuff which you probably knew already, just thought it should be included & anyway things are a bit slow this afternoon

:J
Old 16th August 2007
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkEcho View Post
Andreas, you said that your stuff peaks at -12, you mean thats the highest any one instrument's level ever gets? do you limit them to -12 or just alter the level so that -12 is the max it ever gets?
I just alter the levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkEcho View Post
Also, I thought gain staging had to do with the levels of different peices of equipment going in and out of eachother, for instance, wouldnt proper gain staging for a drum sampler and a DAW be your sampler loud enough to where its not in the red, and then whatever level you want in your DAW, where as improper gain staging would be having the volume too low in your sampler but turning it up really high in your DAW to compensate?.
That's right!


Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkEcho View Post
Maybe I am confused about what gain staging is.
I found that proper gain staging ITB and OTB is very different. Perhaps you think of gain staging more like an OTB-guy.
Old 16th August 2007
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab View Post
I track in peaking around this level. I have not mixed this low though...I usually mix louder...I may try what you are doing though...any hints on how you get it loud after? I mean we all know mastering is the way, but I have heard MEs say .."you want a loud song? Mix it loud"....So I'm interested in what you do in that area.
Others than the usual stuff I have no special trick or technic and my mixes are probably not superloud. When doing Rockstuff I do try to get a lot of punch and power in the mix but rather by feeling than by watching a rms-meter. Perhaps try another mastering guy :-)
Old 17th August 2007
  #35
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Alex Niedt's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab View Post
I track in peaking around this level. I have not mixed this low though...I usually mix louder...I may try what you are doing though...any hints on how you get it loud after? I mean we all know mastering is the way, but I have heard MEs say .."you want a loud song? Mix it loud"....So I'm interested in what you do in that area.
But they mean mix it to sound loud, do they not? It doesn't matter where you're actually peaking.
Old 18th August 2007
  #36
Quote:
wouldnt proper gain staging for a drum sampler and a DAW be your sampler loud enough to where its not in the red,
No actually. If you are recording at 24bit there's no need whatsoever to have the signal hotter than hell going in. You should still be averaging -12 dbfs if not -18. The more headroom you leave at this stage the better quality you will get coming out (see my sig). You can squash and limit the hell out of it later if you aren't sending it ot an ME but for mixdown just make it sound as good as you can and don't worry about loud (which is all a very long way of saying:

Quote:
... or make everything else quiter
Old 18th August 2007
  #37
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mOjO FET's Avatar
 

Try changing your pan law.

Michael
Old 18th August 2007
  #38
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Eganmedia's Avatar
If it sounds good in solo and sounds good when it's louder than the rest of mix, I'd guess there's other stuff happening in the mix that's masking the kick. Try muting some instruments and see if the kick pops out without having to raise its volume. Sometimes the low end of a bass can fight terribly with a kick. So can the accumulated low end of a bunch of electric guitars, keyboards, etc. Rather than adding more processing to an already good kick sound, try thinning out the jungle of other crap that's obscuring it.
Old 18th August 2007
  #39
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AllAboutTone's Avatar
 

Are you using good preamps ? or any ? thats helps a lot.
Old 18th August 2007
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrox247 View Post
Turn down everything else, and raise the master fader. Done
Spot on.
Old 18th August 2007
  #41
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CrankyRayHanky's Avatar
 

Use more than 1 mic: inside, outside, a foot back. I currently use the ae2500 which has 2 built in, a D6, and a 4047 a footback. Thunderous
Old 18th August 2007
  #42
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musicguitar's Avatar
 

I know this might not be the best answer, but you could try using some samples with a sound replacer program (drumagog, etc.) to get the punch/attack, and blend it with the original kick. Also, try pulling out the low-end on the guitars and panning hard left and right for a lot of other instruments to allow the kick to really shine and cut through
Old 19th August 2007
  #43
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Quote:
Practise ducking techniques
booyah!

assuming you've attempted most of the well-known tricks as far as compression/EQ go, and the kick still won't cut through, this is where i would look to next
Old 20th August 2007
  #44
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This is all good advice but I have to laugh because I am pretty sure i've mentioned that I am using Battery kits a few times already.. thanks for the tips but I am not working with recorded kick drum this time haha.

now, to RimSkiDog, when I open Battery 3, all of the cells are set to their default volumes. which are usually zero.. for proper digital gain staging, I should leave these at the default volume and send them to multi outs and adjust the volumes within the DAW right?

to sum up the gain staging, isnt it better to leave it up to the last program in the chain to decide the volume of something rather than have it changed by the source programs?
Old 20th August 2007
  #45
I don't use samples so this will not be right on point, but think of it this way. If you see you samples as audio-in you would deal with them so that everything was at unity except the trim. Thus if you use the voloume of your sample on playback to ensure your signal int your DAW averages around -18 dbfs then you are probably ensuring you have the best signal stregnth (and therfore the best quality you can capture). Make sense?
Old 20th August 2007
  #46
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ok so I need to use the volume control within battery to make each individual sample average -18 on each execution inside the DAW, then they will all be the same volume and can be volume adjusted accordingly from within the DAW
Old 20th August 2007
  #47
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gurubuzz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkEcho View Post
ok so I need to use the volume control within battery to make each individual sample average -18 on each execution inside the DAW, then they will all be the same volume and can be volume adjusted accordingly from within the DAW

Just cut them all the same amount...you want the relative mix to stay intact.
Old 20th August 2007
  #48
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gurubuzz's Avatar
 

Also remember that Gain staging is important in the analog world to keep the signal as far above the noise floor as possible...

if you are staying in the box, gain staging becomes irrelevant......


AND remember the clearer the Kick the louder it sounds....Choose which will be the boss in the lo frequency the bass or Kick and do try ducking the bass with kick..it will sound louder without being really louder.
Old 20th August 2007
  #49
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Niedt View Post
But they mean mix it to sound loud, do they not? It doesn't matter where you're actually peaking.
I guess..well thats kind of confusing the way you worded it. I track in at low volumes and it does indeed make a difference. my mixes don't clip, but they peak near 0..what I do is start with the kick, so everything is built around that. So to mix lower, I would simply start with the kick peaking at a lower volume. I will give it a shot sometime.
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