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must have outboard multi-processor box
Old 13th June 2002
Gear Maniac

must have outboard multi-processor box

Knowing many of you here work in a DAW, mostly PT (my rig is based on DP3 at the moment). There comes a point where you can only spend so much on your outboard for getting things into the computer, and then comes the mixdown necessities. We all like some of the plug-in's out there, yet most kinda suck. I would always love to pipe out my tracks into a nice automated desk, and take advantage of a whole rack of compressors and effect boxes, yet that's not the reality.

The reality are boxes that you can route your DAW tracks out of, and back into new tracks. I do this with compressors and find that the latency delay is either the same as a plugin inparts, or I can always align the new "wet" track sample accuratly to the "dry" track.

I now am looking to drop some coin on a box for a few good verbs, some good chorus and delay patches etc - Most likely thinking of a Eventide. Talking about going AES out of my interfaces and back in AES to the new tracks.

Was almost sold on the Eventide Eclipse - seems to sound great, pack alot of good presents for the buck, is clockable taboot - and would allow to get those killer background vox sounds and whatnot that you just can't do with a waves bundle or whatever.

Anyone else out there (Jules?) up for running things out and back in to a new track(s)?

I'm thinking about taking a single rack space pannel, and making a digital patchbay out of it - punching 6 or so RCA's wired via 75ohm cable, then 6 or so XLRs with 100ohm, and also having one point in the bay with a HOSA or such sp/dif>AES conversion box patched between two points so that I can fly between the two formats no problem.

I'm talking about mixing here folks, as I'n those Steve Lillywhite mixes that use beautiful use of effects to turn well recorded sounds into a beautiful wall of sound.
Old 13th June 2002
Some ideas for you..

Any analog i/o reverb fx box you like (I use an AMS RMX 16 Reverb) tape delays etc
Eventide DSP 4000 series (AES i/o) second hand (I use one)
TC M3000 (I use one) I like the dual reverb engines - second hand
Lexicon 81 & 91 (AES i/o) - second hand
Lexicon 480 + AES i/o option - second hand
New Kurzweil FX unit - many engines - bargain price (supposed to be great)
Anything with a digital i/o (make sure it will operate in a 'loop' like we are discussing)

It's always fun to "cheat the computer" with external stuff.. Leaves more power for plug ins..

If you are running on a Mac with a Native set up I would seriously concider the TC Power Core card - for the Sony Oxford EQ - extra $$ (and soon to come compression) The reverbs are supposed to be good too.

When shopping for ONE box look out for the magic words 'dual engine' (or more like the Kurzweil unit) this allows several SEPARATE FX to be running at the same time.

I would check out the Kurzweil and see how many mono ins & stereo outs you could have running at the same time...

Old 13th June 2002
Gear Nut

Lately I have been working out of a new room called Crossroads Productions (see the article in the new Mix) and they have a great set up for Pro Tools mixing. They just put in a 24 channel Neve Melbourne for tracking and for handling the summing duties at mix. It sounds fantastic. The FX processing is great too. They have a Lexicon 960L, an Eventide Eclipse, and a TC M3000. I have recently discovered how great the Eventide stuff is for background vocal FX. Crossraods is switching over to PTHD this month, and I hope it makes a difference in sound quality.

I really like routing my fx sends digitally into these boxes and printing them to a stereo track in order to recall the mixes without having to recall my fx. It works nicely.
Old 13th June 2002
Gear Maniac

Lord, how did you like alot of the patches in the Eclipse - a short user review would be peachy!

For me, I'm personaly a guy that's playing the everything guy for younger singer-songwriters. Some people are wanting a more produced mix sound, and for those - I want a box like the Eclipse, so that I can take a copy of the artist's vox line, sing it myself, have any vocalists I know sing it - mabye give it some auto-tune lovin, most likely not - but then make these backing vocals either a mono submix and use a mono>stereo patch and route the signal back to it's own stereo track, or send over a dry stereo mix to get send back as a wet stereo mix.

As for me right now, I'm doing work on a MOTU rig - usually trying to track at a place with a RME ADI-8 Pro. I have a mini-me on the way due to the fact I have enough good pre's to get good sounds with stock converters (MOTU 896s), yet the Mini-Me will be used for all main tracks (overheads during drums, etc) and overdubs. If the mini-me aint as good as the ad-1000 was, I'm selling and getting ahead, um - i mean a HEDD.

I am doing most of my small work right now on my own 100%, yet have the ability to mix at an SSL room now and then. Eventually I am going to start managing to get time there (6048-E for those curious), and outputting stems from my DP3 DAW, using automation of the computer or the SSL, and mainly use the SSL for summing and the 2-bus comp.

I use good plugings like realverb and channel strip, and then bounce em to disk as new files (storing the dry sound files as backup), yet I do want something that is no compromise that I can afford to at my pace run **** though 1 at a time until I paint the sonic picture I am looking for.

Will have to check out mix to see that room - finding a nice small sidecar like that would be nice - someone should convice Geoff Tanner to make a D2B like box - yet with alittle more flexibility - either way renting a room with a real board is cheaper!

go easy
Old 14th June 2002
Lives for gear
e-cue's Avatar

*raises hand*

I'll like to put a vote in for the TC Electronic M5000 (with 4 dig engines) These boxes are incrediblely versitile. You can purchase them with several diffrent options, but it sounds like 4 AES engines would work the best for what you want to do. Thank god these boxes are comming down in price. Anytime I'm in a digital room, this is my "primary" unit.
Old 14th June 2002
What sort of stuff do you find yourself doing with the 4 engines?
Old 14th June 2002
Gear Nut


I didn't really care for the presets on the Eclipse at first. Now I am figuring out what they are good for. Eventide stuff has a certain sound to it that, if used wrong, can be cheesey. If you use it in the right spots on the right things, it can make your mix happen. I am just getting to know the box, so I can't really give very many specifics yet. I really like the Analog Delays preset though.
Old 14th June 2002
Hummm 4 engines... it´s gonna be cool if you can process 4 different signals... yummy
Old 14th June 2002
Lives for gear
e-cue's Avatar

I'm partial to the "480 Hall", "Goldplate"(one of my favorite vocal & drums verbs), "MD2" multiband processer (Swheet for basses that lack presence), any of the "Delay 2" settings (they emulate the TC1210 Spatial Expander), the "Delay 1" settings do everything the 2290 does, the "Phaser" settings are like the TC XII Phaser pedal but in STEREO (and without the buzzes, and impedence mismatches)! I could go on forever...
They do have a 96K option, so if you're running HD you could rock it at the higher sampling rates. These seem expensive, but if you consider the cost of say 4 2290's, or any of the other 'emulating' programs, it's a really good value... It's real easy to 'document' (when you save it to a floppy) Plus, you can keep expanding the unit with upgrades.
Old 15th June 2002
One with big hooves
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
If you want to get a second box the TC M2000 has great time based effects and isn't a lot of money if you can find a used one. Maybe $600. A lot of people that mix at my place like it and I even like the reverb in it. I'd still like to get an EMT 140 someday...
Old 19th June 2002
Lives for gear
Geosync's Avatar

Originally posted by Jules
Some ideas for you..

I would check out the Kurzweil and see how many mono ins & stereo outs you could have running at the same time...

Any combination of 8 ins and outs in many configurations
Old 20th June 2002
Was almost sold on the Eventide Eclipse - seems to sound great, pack alot of good presents for the buck, is clockable taboot - and would allow to get those killer background vox sounds and whatnot that you just can't do with a waves bundle or whatever

I was never crazy about the Eclipse(I had for a week then sold it). I did like the DSP7000 though(totally programable, the reverbs are smooth), which I did keep. There are some nice plug in effects out there(I like the timeblender and pitchblender a lot). But for the meat and potatoes stuff, you still can't beat a dedicated box. I own something like 50 effects (and still growing), and when I mix I use almost all of them. But it also depends on the style of music, some music is more "effect"friendly. I mix a lot of pop,avantgarde, and alt rock, and some of the music needs lots of treatments.
Old 20th June 2002
Gear Guru
Drumsound's Avatar
I haven't heard the Eclipse, but I would assume it has an Eventide flavor. I think I would opt for something else first. Get something known for it's great reverbs, that seems to be where plug-ins really lack. My vote would be a TC M3000. It's very easy to navigate, has two engines, lots of routing, and, most importantly, sounds GREAT! It's my first call/for the most important effect box.
Old 20th June 2002
Lives for gear
Geosync's Avatar

You can compare the M3000 PCM91 and Kurzweil KSP8 online.
Even though the result is a MP3 download. all sounds are processed on the
processors at full badwidth so the comparison should be somewhat even.
Old 20th June 2002
I wonder if manufacturers have a 96k upgrade stratagy?

TC had an upgrade for their Finalizer....
Old 20th June 2002
Lives for gear
Geosync's Avatar

The main purpose of the sample frequency is sonic clarity agreed?

The goal of the KSP8 was to provide the highest quality effects processing
at an attractive price. This would allow the quickest way to enter the
pro audio market. The 96K issue was raised very early, so thanks to some
very brilliant design, the sonic quality was met or exceeded using a patent
pending A/D design. This allowed us to use 48K components to deliver
a 96K or better sound. For a stand alone use, we recommend using the analog option and internal clock analog ins and outs to other 96K gear. It works perfectly and cleanly. We beta tested this with Dr Fred Bashour (Pro Sound Review).

Now for the digital side..
In a stand alone application, the KSP8 will max out at 48K.
But in DAWs that use S/MUX specification for sample-splitting to obtain 96K A/Ds , a 48K master clock is used. The KSP8 can slave to the 48K master clock on one of the 2 ADAT ports. I guess you could hang a KSP8 on each of the 2 ports and have a $6,000.00 16 engine system.

Most 96K A/D systems are really dual sets of 48K hardware as implemented by the Sonorus S/MUX specification.

This is just to inform, not a sales pitch BTW. Kurzweil is new to Pro Audio
and still establishing dealers. I used this opportunity to let you know
about this "different" effects system. The KSP8 has a very unique structure
and sound. It's up to you to decide if it's your cup of tea.

And of course, any wise company is developing their next generation of
products that will handle things much differently

Thanks for indulging me heh
Old 20th June 2002
Thanks very much

I am still not sure if it would hang off the new Pro Tools HD in a completely digital way...

Old 20th June 2002
Lives for gear
C.Lambrechts's Avatar

Originally posted by Jules
Thanks very much

I am still not sure if it would hang off the new Pro Tools HD in a completely digital way...

From what I can tell by looking at the specs :

and from reading what George says about it :

in a 44.1 / 48k all digital environment yes .... at 96k no.

George, the specs say nothing about 96k operation or compatibility.

"The KSP8 provides a 48kHz or 44.1 kHz selectable internal master clock, or can slave to an external digital clock"

can thus only slave to external 44.1 / 48 kHz digital clock right ???

The specs don't even say anything about that s/mux sample split compatibility ..... PT HD interfaces use single wire digital transfers at 96k .... don't think they support double wire too.

It is a shame .... I remember looking into the kurzweil when they first started talking about it .... but let it go because of the 96k compatibility issue.

It is my very humble opinion and decission that investments in digital equipment that are not single wire aes at 96k are not wise.

On the other hand I realy wish that Kurzweil would maybe in the future consider offering that possibility ... through upgrade or extra digital i/o cards or whatever. I've heard great things about the ksp8 and will definately keep following it's development.
Old 21st June 2002
Gear Maniac

I think what George was trying to say is that if you need something above 48k, get the extra analog I/O. The converters are world class.

-Mike Martin
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