The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Mid-Side Overhead placement
Old 27th November 2020
  #1
Lives for gear
 
gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
๐ŸŽง 5 years
Mid-Side Overhead placement

I've been trying to place my overheads with the center line being an artificial line bisecting the kick and snare.

I've had success with spaced pair here (with one pointing straight down outside the kit, catching the edge of the rack tom; the other catching the outside of the floor tom), but X/Y (with M160s) seems to get too much hi-hat and Mid-Side was way too close to the snare-side crash (and almost level with it too), when placed over the snare, which is what like to do to get snare body.

Any of you doing it like this? I'm thinking of trying the "center of the kit" methods below, but as always, love me some drum mic chit-chat with my slutz.

Old 27th November 2020
  #2
Gear Head
 
๐ŸŽง 5 years
I personally tend to think of overheads as cymbals and top end, and let the close mics drive the main drum sounds. As such, I donโ€™t feel overheads need to be over the snare โ€” just adjusted for phase issues. X/Y in the center kit position is great, because you donโ€™t run into phase issues. The minus is the limited stereo spread, but that isnโ€™t always necessary.
Old 27th November 2020
  #3
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
 
๐ŸŽง 15 years
I more often than not do ORTF on the diagonal as you've described. Generally, it's over the snare. Sometimes a little more toward the 'center' of the set. It's been forever since I've done M/S overs and that was also on the diagonal.

Recently I've done some things with a spaced pair that is pretty wide and totally off axis. I drop a mic cable from the capsule and make sure it goes straight down to the floor.
Old 27th November 2020 | Show parent
  #4
Gear Guru
 
for me, the axis of orientation is the drummer's perspective when sitting behind the drum kit and runs across the snare and rack tom, not through snare and kick (which gets reflected in the mix with the kick not exactly in the center but balanced against the bass) - this goes for any mic system!

i'm hardly ever using x/y as the exact same results can get achieved with m/s (in one specific setting) but m/s is way more flexibel, also in terms of processing.

i mostly use either m/s, equidistant l/c/r+kick (think of it as 'spaced m/s'), oss or then wide a/b but almost never ortf or nos (and certainly not blumlein); on some rare occasions, i've been using an ambisonic mic.
Old 27th November 2020 | Show parent
  #5
Lives for gear
 
gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
๐ŸŽง 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
for me, the axis of orientation is the drummer's perspective when sitting behind the drum kit and runs across the snare and rack tom, not through snare and kick (which gets reflected in the mix with the kick not exactly in the center but balanced against the bass) - this goes for any mic system!

i'm hardly ever using x/y as the exact same results can get achieved with m/s (in one specific setting) but m/s is way more flexibel, also in terms of processing.

i mostly use either m/s, equidistant l/c/r+kick (think of it as 'spaced m/s'), oss or then wide a/b but almost never ortf or nos (and certainly not blumlein); on some rare occasions, i've been using an ambisonic mic.
What is your Mid mic pointed down towards?
Old 27th November 2020 | Show parent
  #6
Lives for gear
 
gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
๐ŸŽง 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
I more often than not do ORTF on the diagonal as you've described. Generally, it's over the snare. Sometimes a little more toward the 'center' of the set. It's been forever since I've done M/S overs and that was also on the diagonal.

Recently I've done some things with a spaced pair that is pretty wide and totally off axis. I drop a mic cable from the capsule and make sure it goes straight down to the floor.
I like the wide "airy" ORTF too. I tried that after you turned me onto it a couple of years ago. Works because it's kind of shooting past the kit, on the outside, so the cymbals aren't right in the path like I'm finding with M/S (and to some extent), X/Y when on that diagonal.
Old 27th November 2020 | Show parent
  #7
Gear Guru
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface View Post
What is your Mid mic pointed down towards?
center of the snare.
Attached Thumbnails
Mid-Side Overhead placement-20201127_150003.jpg  
Old 27th November 2020 | Show parent
  #8
Lives for gear
 
gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
๐ŸŽง 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
center of the snare.
Cool, never thought of that perspective. Are you panning drummer's perspective here?

I see your extra floor tom here: do you do this when you have a small 1-up, 1-down kit?
Old 27th November 2020 | Show parent
  #9
Gear Guru
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface View Post
Cool, never thought of that perspective. Are you panning drummer's perspective here?

I see your extra floor tom here: do you do this when you have a small 1-up, 1-down kit?
yes, i often pan signals from the drummer's perspective. regarding the additional floor tom...

[i mentioned this in a recent post/in another thread (asking the drummer whether i can add a floor tom even if it doesn't get played)]

...this depends not only on the drummer's willingness (making artists feel fine always has priority) but also on how loud the kit is:
- on a soft drummer, i may move the center of the mic system over to the kick pedal/above the right knee and don't need the extra floor tom.
- on a loud drummer, i tend to use oh's more as cymbal mic's, go with an a/b setup and then don't care (as) much about the stereo image and hence don't need the extra tom either...

...but when using my much-loved modified gj equidistant l/c/r+kick setup, i think the additional tom becomes kinda 'mandatory'.

___


this was a sketch of my kit - without tons of cymbals obviously :-)
Old 27th November 2020 | Show parent
  #10
Lives for gear
 
gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
๐ŸŽง 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
yes, i often pan signals from the drummer's perspective. regarding the additional floor tom...

[i mentioned this in a recent post/in another thread (asking the drummer whether i can add a floor tom even if it doesn't get played)]

...this depends not only on the drummer's willingness (making artists feel fine always has priority) but also on how loud the kit is:
- on a soft drummer, i may move the center of the mic system over to the kick pedal/above the right knee and don't need the extra floor tom.
- on a loud drummer, i tend to use oh's more as cymbal mic's, go with an a/b setup and then don't care (as) much about the stereo image and hence don't need the extra tom either...

...but when using my much-loved modified gj equidistant l/c/r+kick setup, i think the additional tom becomes kinda 'mandatory'.

___


this was a sketch of my kit - without tons of cymbals obviously :-)
Cool.

Why do you call it "GJ modified"? Wondering if I'm missing something here, but assuming it's just your M/S over snare (GJ "top") and front of kit/bass drum mic?

Are you equidistant from front of bass drum to Mid mic?
Old 27th November 2020
  #11
Lives for gear
 
gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
๐ŸŽง 5 years
Pulled the trigger on a Beyer M130 that's on sale right now, so now my ribbon collection consists of:

2 x M160
1 x M130
1 x Royer R10
2 x BIV
Old 27th November 2020 | Show parent
  #12
Gear Guru
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface View Post
Cool.

Why do you call it "GJ modified"? Wondering if I'm missing something here, but assuming it's just your M/S over snare (GJ "top") and front of kit/bass drum mic?

Are you equidistant from front of bass drum to Mid mic?
sorry i wasn't clear: the term 'ml-mgj-lcr+k' refers but to the l/c/r+kick setup (although there is kinda similarity to the m/s setup, which imo is a more focused, zoomed-in version of the lcrk setup)...

'modified gj' in the double sense that the typical glyn johns setup uses just two mics afaik but can be seen as the basis of 'my' approach but also that the latter differs from gj in that it yields the advantage of precise localisation of all sources within the stereo (and surround or even immersive) soundfield - without any phase alignment - while it is also mono compatible (hence a captial 'C' would be correct).

'equidistant' applies to all capsules (including that of the kick mic), measured from the center of the snare batter head - sounds kinda nerdy but can yield stunning results, provided that the room, drums and cymbals sound fine and the drummer can play in a balanced way.

before i forget: i often add a snare top mic, especially if the snare is tuned low or dampened: less for level but for independant processing and for sending to an individual efx - snare mic then 'must' get aligned to the center oh mic (or one risks that it sticks out too much).
Old 27th November 2020 | Show parent
  #13
Gear Head
 
๐ŸŽง 5 years
Whereโ€™d you find an M 130 on sale? Iโ€™ve been wanting to add one of these to my 160s.
Old 27th November 2020 | Show parent
  #14
Lives for gear
 
gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
๐ŸŽง 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zwolf View Post
Whereโ€™d you find an M 130 on sale? Iโ€™ve been wanting to add one of these to my 160s.
economik.com

Not sure what shipping would be like though. Canadian store.
Old 27th November 2020 | Show parent
  #15
Lives for gear
 
gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
๐ŸŽง 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
sorry i wasn't clear: the term 'ml-mgj-lcr+k' refers but to the l/c/r+kick setup (although there is kinda similarity to the m/s setup, which imo is a more focused, zoomed-in version of the lcrk setup)...

'modified gj' in the double sense that the typical glyn johns setup uses just two mics afaik but can be seen as the basis of 'my' approach but also that the latter differs from gj in that it yields the advantage of precise localisation of all sources within the stereo (and surround or even immersive) soundfield - without any phase alignment - while it is also mono compatible (hence a captial 'C' would be correct).

'equidistant' applies to all capsules (including that of the kick mic), measured from the center of the snare batter head - sounds kinda nerdy but can yield stunning results, provided that the room, drums and cymbals sound fine and the drummer can play in a balanced way.

before i forget: i often add a snare top mic, especially if the snare is tuned low or dampened: less for level but for independant processing and for sending to an individual efx - snare mic then 'must' get aligned to the center oh mic (or one risks that it sticks out too much).
Need a pic.

Pic me bro.
Old 27th November 2020
  #16
Lives for gear
When I'm playing the session, I keep going back to the unconventional approach of "earheads" since the late 80s, where what is normally overheads is instead attempting to replicate what the drummer hears, and typical overheads sound nothing like that because the drummer literally isn't floating over the kit, which sounds way different compared to the throne position. In other words, the "overheads" are spaced and just above ear level, maybe 12 - 16" away from each ear, facing low-height cymbals.

But like anything, there are always compromises. The cymbals in this case are quite low and relatively close to the toms so that the overheads are still picking up the bulk of cymbal wash when they are teetering back and forth on the stands after being struck. Too low, and the cymbal sound would quickly fade in and out too much. SDC omnis help with this, however, which is what I typically go with. But sometimes I'll go for ribbons or LDCs depending on the material.

In this setup, the snare is centered in the image, but the kick is off to the right. I measure each mic from the snare within 10 mm or less. However, the kick ends up being centered at mixdown due to the balance of the kick mic being relatively higher than the other spot mics. Never a problem for me.

Also, the susceptibility of hitting the overheads could be much higher, depending on the drummer. Definitely a downside, especially if you're using high end, expensive, or rare mics.

For me, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. The end result always sounds closer to how the kit actually sounds to the drummer (and the audience; the audience isn't above the kit, either). The cymbals sound much closer to the way I hear them in real life, and that's because the mics are picking them up the way you hear them in real life; mostly from the side and not from above. Of course most of a cymbal's brightness radiates from its edges, and its mids and "honkiness" will come from above the cymbal.

I also find it as the best method of balancing my kit evenly while listening to only the overheads through IEMs during tracking and practicing, or rehearsing. In addition, I very rarely, if ever, need a hi hat spot mic with this method, as long as I (and potentially another drummer) balances all the kit elements well. To me, the hi hat mic never sounds nearly as natural as the overheads in this case, and it doesn't matter what hi hat mic is used; I have over 50 to choose from. That said, for some drummers and hi hats, they may end up being too loud but that's never been a problem for me.
Old 27th November 2020
  #17
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
 
๐ŸŽง 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface View Post
I like the wide "airy" ORTF too. I tried that after you turned me onto it a couple of years ago. Works because it's kind of shooting past the kit, on the outside, so the cymbals aren't right in the path like I'm finding with M/S (and to some extent), X/Y when on that diagonal.
Yeah, it the 'shooting past' thing that I think I like about ORTF, and why when I do the spaced pair why I go off axis. Cymbals radiate a lot of different things from different places, so not having a mic directly over them seems beneficial in many ways. That might be why the Albini M/S in front of the drums thing works so well.
Old 27th November 2020
  #18
Lives for gear
 
๐ŸŽง 5 years
I have never had much luck with MS over the kit. But Have liked it in front of the kit far away. I think it would work if you have over 13' ceilings. to get the mic's 8+ feet up.
Old 27th November 2020
  #19
Lives for gear
 
GYMusic's Avatar
 
๐ŸŽง 15 years
I understand the topic is "MS overhead". Since others went a little off topic, I would like to add that I have had an unsatisfied outcome with MS overheads. My drum setup pretty much stays the same. I've had good results with x-y, but prefer ORTF. ORTF gives me more spread and "airy sounding" like someone else stated. ORTF also gives the option of pulling in the L and R pans if it's too wide.
Old 28th November 2020 | Show parent
  #20
Lives for gear
 
MikeInOttawa's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface View Post
economik.com
Great store BTW.
Old 28th November 2020
  #21
Lives for gear
 
๐ŸŽง 10 years
I love MS for drum overheads now. Recorded a jazz series in LA last year, tried ORTF with cmc54's, AB with c617set, and MS with c700s. They all have some great qualities, but the c700s is my favorite, placed close to your 'centered on kit picture', but with the snare a bit off center. Here's a video I produced where you can see the c700s in some shots, and at 4:35 there's a drum solo with the camera mounted on the c700s stand. That camera angle is pretty much the line I had the mic on:

https://vimeo.com/437438469
๐Ÿ“ Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 516 views: 157158
Avatar for PaulMac
PaulMac 1 week ago
replies: 130 views: 56328
Avatar for downrazor11
downrazor11 2nd November 2014
replies: 102 views: 9540
Avatar for nobtwiddler
nobtwiddler 16th May 2020
replies: 131 views: 13338
Avatar for ISedlacek
ISedlacek 6th November 2020
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
๐Ÿ–จ๏ธ Show Printable Version
โœ‰๏ธ Email this Page
๐Ÿ” Search thread
๐ŸŽ™๏ธ View mentioned gear
Forum Jump
Forum Jump