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vintage mic for kick and bass guitar
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #31
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheu78 View Post
Ask your dealer..
Sennheiser posted this on their website, I believe..
I’ve got an email at the beginning of october or so..
On some swiss online stores I can see them for 211 chf, which is equivalent (and probably with shipping included).

They even posted a video tracking a drumkit with the 421 on overheads..because of this special sale.

Dunno in the rest of europe or the US..

But should be like this until the end of october 2020.



Cheu
Thanks, I had a quick look and couldn't find anywhere that had them at that price. Offer must be over :(
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #32
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cheu78's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by OshMurr View Post
Thanks, I had a quick look and couldn't find anywhere that had them at that price. Offer must be over :(
I’d ask anyway..
Dunno if it was limited quantities or not..

Worst case scenario is that they tell you they don’t have it at that price..
you can still not buy it




Cheu
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #33
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weave's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheu78 View Post
I’d ask anyway..
Dunno if it was limited quantities or not..

Worst case scenario is that they tell you they don’t have it at that price..
you can still not buy it




Cheu
I did note that reverb and eBay seem to have a slew of brand new looking mint MD421 II’s for sale lately. Not $200 though... odd, that.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Old 4 weeks ago
  #34
Gear Guru
 
monkeyxx's Avatar
Beyerdynamic M88. has anyone said it already? That's the one for me. RE20/PL20 would also work. You're going to have to compete for that price point though, or wait a while.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #35
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
Beyerdynamic M88. has anyone said it already? That's the one for me. RE20/PL20 would also work. You're going to have to compete for that price point though, or wait a while.

Would be great but getting it for under $200 isn't happening I don't think.

I'd be all over it if you find one tho!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #36
Gear Addict
Tbh I don't know that I've ever heard a kick drum sound good thru a 421.

Only time I've enjoyed a bass cab thru a 421 is when it was a crunchy distorted sound with limited low-end... 421 worked well for that.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikoli View Post
Tbh I don't know that I've ever heard a kick drum sound good thru a 421.
Depends on what you think "good" is and how you want to work.

Many "vintage" kick drum mics don't have the huge bottom and scoop of modern mics that are made with huge kick sounds in mind.

If you want big sounding you have to do it yourself.

Also not everybody it recording music that has the kick as the main instrument. Lots of great songs don't have a kick that sounds like a piledriver with a heap of extra low end, it depends on the genre and the song really.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #38
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLast View Post
Depends on what you think "good" is and how you want to work.

Many "vintage" kick drum mics don't have the huge bottom and scoop of modern mics that are made with huge kick sounds in mind.

If you want big sounding you have to do it yourself.

Also not everybody it recording music that has the kick as the main instrument. Lots of great songs don't have a kick that sounds like a piledriver with a heap of extra low end, it depends on the genre and the song really.
One of the best sounding kick drum mics, to my ear, was mentioned above... the Beyerdynamic M 88 TG.

Every application of the 421 on a kick drum that I've heard sounded lifeless to me. It captures the "whap" of the beater and that's it. Good for capturing a kick drum stuffed with a pillow with no resonance I suppose... but virtually any mic can do the same. Pretty narrow use imo, but if that's what the OP means by "vintage", great.

Frankly I also found their spill/bleed to be untenable for toms as well.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #39
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kludgeaudio's Avatar
 

I do not believe that the 421 Mk. II has neodymium magnets, but it's really quite academic since the element in the Mk II bears no connection at all with the original 421 capsule. The original 421 element was designed to be repaired; the diaphragm and coil can be removed and replaced on the bench and that is clearly part of the original design requirements. At no point in my career has the diaphragm ever been available for sale as a replacement item, so it's clear that Sennheiser spent money to make the capsule repairable but took no advantage of that repairability. The Mk II capsule is not repairable, and is a very different design that is much cheaper to make. The Mk II capsule also has a massive presence peak, which makes it sound totally different than the original 421.

If you liked the original 421, you probably won't like the 421 Mk. II but you might like the 441 instead. And the 441 is a very underrated bass mike.

Another vintage microphone that is marvelous on electric bass and severely underrated is the EV 635A. Yes, it has no bottom end at all. Yes, the low end is clearly tailored for interview work. Yes, it's beamy as hell. Yes, I know all of these things would make you think it would be a terrible mike on a bass cabinet but... try it. It's great. And if you pay more than $25 for a used one you're getting ripped off.
--scott
Old 4 weeks ago
  #40
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toledo3's Avatar
 

My vintage 421s have a bit less 60-30hz, and more pronounced 2-4k...the newer ones seem to have deeper lows, flatter mid, and more presence/air.

I have replaced the rotary high pass part on some old 421s and 441s a few times; it is pretty audible difference sometimes afterwards. Increasing level and almost like taking a bandpass filter off.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #41
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikoli View Post
Tbh I don't know that I've ever heard a kick drum sound good thru a 421.

Only time I've enjoyed a bass cab thru a 421 is when it was a crunchy distorted sound with limited low-end... 421 worked well for that.
421 paired with a good LDC is a pretty classic sound. On its own...meh.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #42
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andychamp's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
421 paired with a good LDC is a pretty classic sound. On its own...meh.
While helping design the C&T ElDiablo (now Shure KSM353), Fletcher was apparently going for the sound of a 421/47FET combo.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #43
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bambamboom's Avatar
Shure Beta Green 2.0
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #44
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by andychamp View Post
While helping design the C&T ElDiablo (now Shure KSM353), Fletcher was apparently going for the sound of a 421/47FET combo.
I did not know that.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #45
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vernier's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotchicken View Post
any vintage dynamic mics under $200 for recording bass?
If D.I. and amp. then just about anything ..i.e. SM57. If cab only, then I have no ideas for that price.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #46
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toledo3's Avatar
 

I recorded some albums with all 57s and 545s, and the response on the low end is :-(

vintage mic for kick and bass guitar-69029522-5e5d-427d-897f-40b5f7d469d9.png

I remember boosting SO much under 90hz...60-30hz, to ridiculous degrees at some points just to get some reasonable bass drum and bass guitar. Would not be a first choice for bass or bass drum (maybe on pedal position for attack, in addition to a mic in front though).

That said, if you are looking for low end shy very overt garage rock sound, it works. That was the basic goal in those cases...every approach can have its place. Probably works for other things too, no doubt.
Attached Thumbnails
vintage mic for kick and bass guitar-69029522-5e5d-427d-897f-40b5f7d469d9.png  
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #47
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLast View Post
Also not everybody it recording music that has the kick as the main instrument. Lots of great songs don't have a kick that sounds like a piledriver with a heap of extra low end, it depends on the genre and the song really.
PREACH.

Tired of this sound. Have to do it often and I get that it's the thing right now (2020) but these massive subby kicks are getting pretty same-y to me. Great on a few things, certainly, but I'm hearing them on absolutely everything now and it's just way, way too much. Kicks can be so big that after a certain point it's just a cartoon.

Sorry to threadjack.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #48
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo3 View Post
I recorded some albums with all 57s and 545s, and the response on the low end is :-(



I remember boosting SO much under 90hz...60-30hz, to ridiculous degrees at some points just to get some reasonable bass drum and bass guitar. Would not be a first choice for bass or bass drum (maybe on pedal position for attack, in addition to a mic in front though).

That said, if you are looking for low end shy very overt garage rock sound, it works. That was the basic goal in those cases...every approach can have its place. Probably works for other things too, no doubt.
A whole record with 57s? That sounds like hell to me.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #49
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andychamp's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
A whole record with 57s? That sounds like hell to me.
...or Nebraska...
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #50
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andychamp's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
I did not know that.
Not my original source (I think Fletcher may have mentioned it here, back then), but a quick Google search brought up this.
I‘ve used its baby brother, the 313/NakedEyeRoswellite, inside and outside kick on occasion, and it does give a beefy „whappp“, especially if you get it halfway between both heads.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #51
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cheu78's Avatar
Ok..
So I asked a friend of mine the permission to post a small snippet of an improvisation he did with another musician..(that I've recorded some time ago).

The drummer is very talented and plays a stave construction bubinga kit made by LeSoprano (great italian boutique drum company). He comes from jazz, although this was more an electronic-meets-jazz duo improvisation (the duo is named BRAUN). I believe that Brian (the drummer) had a small metal bowl on the snare as an effect, but I'm not sure if it was on this part or another piece in the improvisation.

this is just the drums (without the synths part).

In the "no mix" version are basically pan only, and faders up. No EQ, No compression, NO verbs. Nothing.. faders up and panning. Flat and natural, post preamp recording.

the "eq" version I strapped a couple of eq's on some channels (but very mild standard moves, nothing crazy, did it in 5mins), no compression on single channels, no gating, just a sort of limiter plugin for level and punch and a tiny bit of PSP E27EQ on the foot and on the master. I'd not even call it a mix (and didn't crush/compress the room mics either, just faders up).

I added the kick only (sennheiser 421) file, so you could see how it fares (at least on this very bass drum) in "isolation".

mics used
bass drum: 421
snare top: 441
snare bottom: 441
floor: Shure ksm137
OH's: Line Audio CM3
HH: Shure ksm137
stereo room: Violet Design Amethyst Vintage (old model)

Was recorded with very utilitarian preamps, Allen&Heath GLD-80 at 48Khz
(a mid tier digital desk).

The eq moves and plugs were made in reaper on my old mbp, on old beyer headphones, no monitors, no soundcard.. (mbp headphone out).

I hope this helps,



Cheu
Attached Files

DRUMS BRIAN no_mix.wav (8.38 MB, 242 views)

DRUMS BRIAN EQ.wav (8.38 MB, 232 views)

KICK_only_421.wav (4.19 MB, 227 views)


Last edited by cheu78; 4 weeks ago at 05:28 PM.. Reason: added info
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #52
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by andychamp View Post
...or Nebraska...

Can confirm... it's not for everyone.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #53
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyfreeman View Post
PREACH.

Tired of this sound. Have to do it often and I get that it's the thing right now (2020) but these massive subby kicks are getting pretty same-y to me. Great on a few things, certainly, but I'm hearing them on absolutely everything now and it's just way, way too much. Kicks can be so big that after a certain point it's just a cartoon.

Sorry to threadjack.
I tend to agree... tho it has its place, it's silly that it became the "default" sound for so many engineers. Placing a super hyped LDD inside with a sub-mic outside as the default / go-to setup on a 22x18 kick drum with a hyped up batter head... maybe great for hard-rock / metal... but ffs... should not be the default for every session lol.

I just hate that here on GS, I can't say I'm not a big fan of the objectively "dead" sounding kick drum that a lone 421 often produces... without some jaggoff acting like I must be a fan of the complete opposite.

So if the OP asks what's <$200 and good for bass cab and kick drum... there's a lot of middle ground between a dead sounding 421 and a PR48 / sub-kick combo... and somewhere in that middle ground is, imo, a more versatile mic for getting usable low end.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #54
Gear Addict
 
plainofjars's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio View Post
Another vintage microphone that is marvelous on electric bass and severely underrated is the EV 635A. Yes, it has no bottom end at all. Yes, the low end is clearly tailored for interview work. Yes, it's beamy as hell. Yes, I know all of these things would make you think it would be a terrible mike on a bass cabinet but... try it. It's great. And if you pay more than $25 for a used one you're getting ripped off.
--scott
Interesting! I love the 635a but would have never thought it would be eligible for bass cab duties—for just those reasons, of course. In what sort of musical situations do you like it best?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #55
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by andychamp View Post
...or Nebraska...
the exception, not the rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by andychamp View Post
Not my original source (I think Fletcher may have mentioned it here, back then), but a quick Google search brought up this.
I‘ve used its baby brother, the 313/NakedEyeRoswellite, inside and outside kick on occasion, and it does give a beefy „whappp“, especially if you get it halfway between both heads.
cool

Last edited by Drumsound; 4 weeks ago at 06:43 PM..
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #56
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheu78 View Post
Ok..
So I asked a friend of mine the permission to post a small snippet of an improvisation he did with another musician..(that I've recorded some time ago).

The drummer is very talented and plays a stave construction bubinga kit made by LeSoprano (great italian boutique drum company). He comes from jazz, although this was more an electronic-meets-jazz duo improvisation (the duo is named BRAUN). I believe that Brian (the drummer) had a small metal bowl on the snare as an effect, but I'm not sure if it was on this part or another piece in the improvisation.

this is just the drums (without the synths part).

In the "no mix" version are basically pan only, and faders up. No EQ, No compression, NO verbs. Nothing.. faders up and panning. Flat and natural, post preamp recording.

the "eq" version I strapped a couple of eq's on some channels (but very mild standard moves, nothing crazy, did it in 5mins), no compression on single channels, no gating, just a sort of limiter plugin for level and punch and a tiny bit of PSP E27EQ on the foot and on the master. I'd not even call it a mix (and didn't crush/compress the room mics either, just faders up).

I added the kick only (sennheiser 421) file, so you could see how it fares (at least on this very bass drum) in "isolation".

mics used
bass drum: 421
snare top: 441
snare bottom: 441
floor: Shure ksm137
OH's: Line Audio CM3
HH: Shure ksm137
stereo room: Violet Design Amethyst Vintage (old model)

Was recorded with very utilitarian preamps, Allen&Heath GLD-80 at 48Khz
(a mid tier digital desk).

The eq moves and plugs were made in reaper on my old mbp, on old beyer headphones, no monitors, no soundcard.. (mbp headphone out).

I hope this helps,



Cheu
Thanks for sharing! Cool snare sound. And I really like the 421 on the kick.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #57
Gear Maniac
 
ljona's Avatar
 

I´m using old D12 in front of kick and recently tried it on bass amp, it is fabulous on both sources!

Even on my JCM800 head and cab.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #58
Lives for gear
 

Beyer M88 ftw
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