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How do you make a kick drum and bass guitar play nicely without use of EQ?
Old 4th August 2020
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
Its about the parts, the instruments and the capture methods. They all have to complement one another. I'm of a mind that everything is an EQ, so changing amps, or mics, or drum tuning or whatever is EQ. Its not AN EQ, I understand, but they are all doing a similar job.

So if you wanted a lot of really woofy bass guitar, then use a BD and BD capture method that is more attack heavy, so that way to two sounds complement one another. You can do the opposite as well.
Whats a BD capture?
Old 4th August 2020
  #32
Capture = recording
Old 4th August 2020
  #33
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by camomiletea View Post
Whats a BD capture?
BD=Bass Drum (I abhor Kick/Kick Drum)
Capture= recording as Chrisso said.

So what mic or mics, where they are placed, if there's compression, etc, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Capture = recording
Old 4th August 2020
  #34
Get one sound recorded first and then work on the other sound and get it to sound like you want so they work together..... manipulate the sound at the source. All the things I mention next, generally have the most impact on sound: kick Drum= size of drum, what heads you use, what muffling you use if any, what beater you use, what room your in, how its tuned. Bass Guitar= your strings, amp/speakers, pickups, picking or fingering. What it really boils down to is Tuning and Tone. The next thing you'll have to get right is capturing the very sound that you've created with the instrument.... experiment with microphones and mic placement.
Its pretty basic recording knowledge.
I feel like its not as hard as people make it seem.
Old 4th August 2020
  #35
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The question is clearly about recording.
Yes, I understand that.

...But anything that can be heard can be recorded.

And I have heard (and made) many satisfactory recordings without even touching an equalizer!

I got "dragged kicking and screaming" into working ITB, and while there are still things that bother me about working that way, one good side-effect was that I no longer automatically reach for the EQ like I did on an analog board. (It was just too convienient.)

Mic selection and mic placement is really the best "EQ".
Old 5th August 2020
  #36
After really thinking about this question I've come to realize that it may be a riddle or very ironic at least. I say in the purest form. The answer is: there is no such as using "no EQ" or 'EQUALIZATION'... because equalizing is adjusting the balance of different frequencies. Different sounds are different Hertz frequencies or blends of Hz frequencies. If you change the sound, then you are effectively changing the frequency information that particular sound emits. Plus, many different factors can have an impact on sound as you hear it or perceive it. You'll be forced to equalize them somehow in order for the sounds to fit together how you wish.
Old 5th August 2020
  #37
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andychamp's Avatar
I could swear I‘ve seen some of the posters here on C-span, dodging senators‘ questions at hearings...
Old 5th August 2020
  #38
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by camomiletea View Post
I could play the bassline one octave higher up and leave the kick drum in the lowest octave but would that be enough? Should attention be paid to the individual notes of each? Or is it impossible to get the two in the mix without eq?
it depends but in general you can just tune the bass drum properly and spend time micing and then play a quality bass. I will say a kick with too much low mid is going to need eq and most kicks have too much low mid.
Old 5th August 2020
  #39
Gear Addict
 

The answer is easy, and I'm surprised/disappointed no one has mentioned it. Just play the kick drum with your left foot and the bass with your right foot.
Or just delete the bass notes that land with the kick. They probably weren't the best notes anyway.

The third option is just to turn the bass down in your headphones. That usually fixes things.

(Jokes people. We need them these days.)
Old 5th August 2020
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
BD=Bass Drum (I abhor Kick/Kick Drum)
Capture= recording as Chrisso said.

So what mic or mics, where they are placed, if there's compression, etc, etc.




Why hate the term kick? Say you are recording a drummer that has another say 20"+ bottom tom that is really a converted kick (Sorry bass) drum. Do you call them both BD?

Kick is the best term to describe a drum struck with a pedal using a foot.
I could see an argument for using the term for drums played with a foot not using a pedal, but I have never seen that.
Old 5th August 2020
  #41
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thismercifulfate's Avatar
It generally works out well to have the kick and bass doing opposite things. If you want a kick with some sustain, then palm mute the bass guitar or put some foam under the bridge. Or if the bass is holding out long notes using an expander to control/shorten the decay of the kick does wonders. If you want the bass guitar to be super deep, then make the kick punchy instead of trying to add lots of 60hz. Or if you want the kick to be subby, then the bass line should go into a higher register.
Old 5th August 2020
  #42
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by elegentdrum View Post
Why hate the term kick? Say you are recording a drummer that has another say 20"+ bottom tom that is really a converted kick (Sorry bass) drum. Do you call them both BD?

Kick is the best term to describe a drum struck with a pedal using a foot.
I could see an argument for using the term for drums played with a foot not using a pedal, but I have never seen that.
There's a few reasons, actually. First is years of combating the 'drummer as dullard who just beats on and kicks things' that we've all had to deal with. Second is that (unless talking about Big Band charts) it isn't a musical term. Bass Drums is, to me both a musical term and treats the instrument and its player with respect. Third, coming from band program, all with way through a music degree, I've see SO MANY parts that say BD, SD, CYM and the like that it is just natural to me.

If a drummer has converted a floor tom and is playing it with their foot, I'm calling it BD, because that's its function/role on the drumset.
Old 5th August 2020
  #43
Actually agree with the above. I also dislike the term 'skin'. It's a plastic drum head.
You never 'kick' a bass drum, a pedal strikes it.
I lazily use 'kick' quite often because a lot of people understand it and it's quicker than typing 'bass drum'.
Old 5th August 2020
  #44
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Actually agree with the above. I also dislike the term 'skin'. It's a plastic drum head.
You never 'kick' a bass drum, a pedal strikes it.
I lazily use 'kick' quite often because a lot of people understand it and it's quicker than typing 'bass drum'.
Every track sheet, snake assignment sheet, and DAW project I've ever prepared says BD.


And they always will!
Old 5th August 2020
  #45
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tedtan's Avatar
 

I understand the arguments above for the term bass drum, but in an orchestral or marching band context, the bass drum adds bass whereas in modern metal and hardcore, for example, the "bass" drum is pretty clicky, emphasizing the 4kHz area. Is bass drum still the correct term if the drum adds little in the way of low end?

I get that this is getting somewhat pedantic, but the function has changed, and context is important.
Old 5th August 2020
  #46
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
Every track sheet, snake assignment sheet, and DAW project I've ever prepared says BD.


And they always will!
When I was a pup setting up for a heavyweight freelancer I didn't know, he sent me an input layout that seemed pretty familiar... K, S, T1, T2, FT and so on. Until it came to "CA." There's only me and Donald the Jamaican tech at the studio and I've got a half hour to get it all together. Donald takes a quick look at the list and says, "Cor Anglais, mon."

Last edited by Brent Hahn; 6th August 2020 at 02:02 AM..
Old 5th August 2020
  #47
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedtan View Post
I get that this is getting somewhat pedantic, but the function has changed, and context is important.
Only in the couple of genres you highlight, everywhere else a bass drum sounds like a bass drum.
The name describes the instrument.
It would be like changing the guitar's name to 'strum', although you don't even 'kick' a bass drum.
Old 5th August 2020
  #48
Gear Head
 

One should only kick a drum if it sounds bad. Perhaps, then, it is often appropriate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedtan View Post
whereas in modern metal and hardcore, for example, the "bass" drum is pretty clicky, emphasizing the 4kHz area
Old 5th August 2020
  #49
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedtan View Post
I understand the arguments above for the term bass drum, but in an orchestral or marching band context, the bass drum adds bass whereas in modern metal and hardcore, for example, the "bass" drum is pretty clicky, emphasizing the 4kHz area. Is bass drum still the correct term if the drum adds little in the way of low end?

I get that this is getting somewhat pedantic, but the function has changed, and context is important.
Those are partials of the tone, emphasized instead of the fundamental. And the function within the drumset is still very similar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
When I was a pup setting up for heavyweight freelancer I didn't know, he sent me an input layout that seemed pretty familiar... K, S, T1, T2, FT and so on. Until it came to "CA." There's only me and Donald the Jamaican tech at the studio and I've got a half hour to get it all together. Donald takes a quick look at the list and says, "Cor Anglais, mon."
I would have not had a clue on that either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Only in the couple of genres you highlight, everywhere else a bass drum sounds like a bass drum.
The name describes the instrument.
It would be like changing the guitar's name to 'strum', although you don't even 'kick' a bass drum.
YES
Old 5th August 2020
  #50
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Actually agree with the above. I also dislike the term 'skin'. It's a plastic drum head.
You never 'kick' a bass drum, a pedal strikes it.
I lazily use 'kick' quite often because a lot of people understand it and it's quicker than typing 'bass drum'.
I don't think ease of typing is the rationale.

When I was starting out, I assisted a guy who did live band broadcasts for radio. He was adamant about using "kick" because in the chaos of a live show, the channel labeled "bass drum" looked a lot like the channel labeled "bass". I got into the habit.

Nowadays, I shorten "kick" to "KIK" because the DAW will abbreviate everything for me when I am in 'narrow mix' view - so I can at least have the abbreviation of my choice.
Old 5th August 2020
  #51
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
I don't think ease of typing is the rationale.

When I was starting out, I assisted a guy who did live band broadcasts for radio. He was adamant about using "kick" because in the chaos of a live show, the channel labeled "bass drum" looked a lot like the channel labeled "bass". I got into the habit.

Nowadays, I shorten "kick" to "KIK" because the DAW will abbreviate everything for me when I am in 'narrow mix' view - so I can at least have the abbreviation of my choice.
BD is even shorter.
Old 5th August 2020
  #52
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Jake_SJL's Avatar
 

Who cares what you label the kick/bass drum, just stop labelling Overheads ohL and ohR.
Old 6th August 2020
  #53
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thismercifulfate's Avatar
Seriously people... no one cares about how you label your tracks and it's off-topic. The OP's question is a really good one and unlike this track naming silliness actually merits discussion.
Old 6th August 2020
  #54
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismercifulfate View Post
The OP's question is a really good one...
I think it's a semi-good question. In my experience it's certainly possible for a bass to sound great with no EQ but hardly ever for... That Other Thing. And when are you in a situation where there's no EQ available for TOT? So what's the point of the exercise?
Old 6th August 2020
  #55
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andychamp's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
(...)So what's the point of the exercise?
That question was answered in post #5 , and you even commented positively on it...
How about seeing the exercise as being its own reward, to gain knowledge, to learn a different way of doing things?
So often on GS people are told how important it is to get things sounding right at the source, to rely more on arrangement and performance, yadayadayada...
And now that someone wants to actually avoid using a specific tool, for very valid reasons IMO, they‘re facing a barrage of discouraging response.
I don‘t get it...sometimes I feel people are more interested in „putting down the noob“ than in actually helping them.
Old 6th August 2020
  #56
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake_SJL View Post
Who cares what you label the kick/bass drum, just stop labelling Overheads ohL and ohR.
I totally do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thismercifulfate View Post
Seriously people... no one cares about how you label your tracks and it's off-topic. The OP's question is a really good one and unlike this track naming silliness actually merits discussion.
Conversations meander. The main top has been covered in multiple posts (yours and mine included). Sometimes people ask for clarification on something within a post, and then others answer them.
Old 6th August 2020
  #57
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by andychamp View Post
That question was answered in post #5 , and you even commented positively on it...
Touché :-). But that doesn't mean my thinking has to stop in its tracks.
Old 6th August 2020
  #58
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
I don't think ease of typing is the rationale.
I just put forward my rationale.
Old 6th August 2020
  #59
Quote:
Originally Posted by andychamp View Post
I don‘t get it...sometimes I feel people are more interested in „putting down the noob“ than in actually helping them.
No, I think the goal is to pass on experience.
I answered the question in post #3 , but also added some background thoughts along the way.

If the OP wants to avoid EQ, the absolute anti-dote is to record the sounds as best they can at source. You call it 'yadayada', which for me is vastly less helpful than most of the other posts in the thread.
EQ is a corrective measure. So if you have nothing to correct you don't need EQ. It's about choosing the right bass drum and bass guitar, choosing the right method of recording (mics and mic positions, DI the bass?). Creating the right parts to play, it IS about the arrangement. It's about ALL of these things.
Simply playing a bass part one octave higher to avoid clashing with the bass drum could completely ruin the song - OR it could be genius ala McCartney.
It isn't advisable to always play bass one octave up though.
If the bass drum and bass sit together and sound as one, that can be great too IMO. In this computer programmed age, often a lot of younger musicians think all the elements have to be separate and identifiable.
So I think people gave considered answers and generally good advice.
Old 8th August 2020
  #60
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Wanna know the best knobs to twist to get the Bass Drum to "play nice"?

Well, here's the straight skinny on that:
Drum Tuning Bible
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