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Lexicon LXP15 vs PCM80
Old 24th May 2020
  #1
Gear Head
 

Lexicon LXP15 vs PCM80

Hey slutz,

I heard some comparison of the LXP15 and PCM80 and seem to find that LXP sounds not so far away from the PCM.
I have an option to get the lxp for about 70$ or pcm80 for 350$.
Do you think it is still worth getting the 80 even though lxp sounds very close and a fraction of its price? Can lxp do stereo delays like the 80?
I mainly would use it with analog synths.

Thx
Old 24th May 2020
  #2
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vernier's Avatar
LXP15 is not bad, imo.
Old 24th May 2020
  #3
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MandoBastardo's Avatar
Get both. That's the slutty thing to do. Both will get used... and if you find the PCM 80 isn't worth it, then you can sell it at a profit and keep the free LXP. But you won't, because you can never have too many HW verbs.

But, on the sensible side, the LXP can do stereo delays. But only when in the same room as a PCM 80. Weird marketing thing or something. ;-)
Old 24th May 2020
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandoBastardo View Post
Get both. That's the slutty thing to do. Both will get used... and if you find the PCM 80 isn't worth it, then you can sell it at a profit and keep the free LXP. But you won't, because you can never have too many HW verbs.

But, on the sensible side, the LXP can do stereo delays. But only when in the same room as a PCM 80. Weird marketing thing or something. ;-)
Thanks for the info.
I have a bunch of spring reverbs, midiverb 2 and some bbd echo so want to just add some bigger/artificial reverb to the gang.
Had ensoniq dp4 which while doing big verbs just never felt right, had too much noise and antialiasing in the sound to my taste.

Yes im leaning more towards PCM but that lxp just makes me think of how much other stuff (flangers, choruses) i could get aswell lol .... slut in process ?*♂️
Old 25th May 2020
  #5
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imloggedin's Avatar
I just got an LXP-15 II and it sounds quite good to me. Do some research on version 1 vs 2 before you buy. Some people swear the algorithms on 2 are much better. You can upgrade version 1 models to 2 with some modifications, but I was unable to find the instructions.
Old 25th May 2020
  #6
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The LXP line is a big step down from the 80. The 80 does a few things nothing else does. One thing it does not do that well is reverb. Was designed to compliment the 70/90.

I tried to use an 80 and TCE M5000 together as my effects. Was not a good combination.
Old 26th May 2020
  #7
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PCM80 you’re going to spend years exploring this a decade at least! Quick Sounds easily made with Dual FX and pitch cards
Old 26th May 2020
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elegentdrum View Post
The LXP line is a big step down from the 80. The 80 does a few things nothing else does. One thing it does not do that well is reverb. Was designed to compliment the 70/90.

I tried to use an 80 and TCE M5000 together as my effects. Was not a good combination.
No it wasn’t it was designed as the Prime Time 4
Old 5th September 2020
  #9
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Seeker of Rock's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by imloggedin View Post
I just got an LXP-15 II and it sounds quite good to me. Do some research on version 1 vs 2 before you buy. Some people swear the algorithms on 2 are much better. You can upgrade version 1 models to 2 with some modifications, but I was unable to find the instructions.
There is a chipset you can buy to upgrade to 2.0. I have a JW modded v 2.0 (not the black with orange screen but the grey/blue before v 2). Before I sent it to him he suggested the 2.0 version so I bought and installed those chips. What I can tell you is that the v2 version scrolls and loads presets MUCH quicker than the previous 1.something it came with...much,MUCH quicker which is nice when scrolling presets even if just for a starting point before tweaking. FWIW, I also have a PCM 70 and 90. To me the 70 is it’s own raw animal, the 90 more ‘refined’ for that era, and the LXP like a less sophisticated version of the 90 parameter-wise but with preset delays and choruses and flanges.
Old 17th September 2020
  #10
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Seeker of Rock's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker of Rock View Post
There is a chipset you can buy to upgrade to 2.0. I have a JW modded v 2.0
Wish I would’ve recorded before and after clips before the Audio Upgrades mod bit I remember Jim suggesting the V2 version before I sent it in. Like I said above V2 scrolls and previews presets WAY faster than the 1.20 chips previously in it. It’s a good box now.
Old 18th September 2020
  #11
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I've had a number of LXP-1's and a couple of LXP 5's. I think really the 15 was supposed to be a sort amalgam of the 2 units. Frankly I never thought the LXP-5 was that great. It did do some interesting Delays with some pitch artifacts. The LXP series was budget home studio versions of the PCM 80 and 90 and at the time was a lot of bang for buck compared to the PCM lines. I think I paid in the range of 400.00 for the LXP series and nearly 2500.00 for the PCM series when they were newly released. If you can find the Midi controller for them - and have the patience to work through it - they open up a lot of finer adjustments and are more tunable than the unit alone. But- horse power wise and depth of control. They're in 2 different leagues. If was just going to throw a multy effect unit on a synth for instance - the LXP-15 will work great. If you want a professional sounding recording unit - PCM all the way.
Old 18th September 2020
  #12
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YashN's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker of Rock View Post
Wish I would’ve recorded before and after clips before the Audio Upgrades mod bit I remember Jim suggesting the V2 version before I sent it in.
Record the after.

I have a Lexicon LXP-15 that I restored and got the firmware update chip (as yet not installed).
Old 18th September 2020
  #13
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Seeker of Rock's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RBHan View Post
If was just going to throw a multy effect unit on a synth for instance - the LXP-15 will work great. If you want a professional sounding recording unit - PCM all the way.
I like the 15 but yeah, like the 70 and 90 much more.
Old 20th September 2020
  #14
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RBHan View Post
I've had a number of LXP-1's and a couple of LXP 5's. I think really the 15 was supposed to be a sort amalgam of the 2 units. Frankly I never thought the LXP-5 was that great. It did do some interesting Delays with some pitch artifacts. The LXP series was budget home studio versions of the PCM 80 and 90 and at the time was a lot of bang for buck compared to the PCM lines. I think I paid in the range of 400.00 for the LXP series and nearly 2500.00 for the PCM series when they were newly released. If you can find the Midi controller for them - and have the patience to work through it - they open up a lot of finer adjustments and are more tunable than the unit alone. But- horse power wise and depth of control. They're in 2 different leagues. If was just going to throw a multy effect unit on a synth for instance - the LXP-15 will work great. If you want a professional sounding recording unit - PCM all the way.
LXP series has nothing to do with PCM80 and 90.
The two series came out aboyut 10 years apart, mid '80s the LXP and mid '90s the PCM80/90. The LXP algorithms are their own thing, with some (very few) being a VERY much scaled down version of some 480 ones and not as tweakable. Both machines used the Lexichiip 1. Others are a different take of some PCM70 structures. And a few are original ones.
The LXP15 has all algorithms from both the LXP1 and 5.
Old 20th September 2020
  #15
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YashN's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by italo de angelis View Post
The LXP algorithms are their own thing, with some (very few) being a VERY much scaled down version of some 480 ones and not as tweakable. Both machines used the Lexichiip 1. Others are a different take of some PCM70 structures. And a few are original ones.
The LXP15 has all algorithms from both the LXP1 and 5.
Come stai, Italo?

Now that I have a good mixer with AUX sends (Soundcraft Delta, slightly modified already), looking forward to making some experiments with effects modules and cross-mod or what not.

Working on it.

Old 4 weeks ago
  #16
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by YashN View Post
Come stai, Italo?

Now that I have a good mixer with AUX sends (Soundcraft Delta, slightly modified already), looking forward to making some experiments with effects modules and cross-mod or what not.

Working on it.


Hey man

Mixer and true line level is the way to go!!!

Have all the fun!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #17
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YashN's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by italo de angelis View Post
Hey man

Mixer and true line level is the way to go!!!

Have all the fun!
Grazie mille!

There are a few interesting effect processors lurking in some of my synths, so I am going to try and plug them in at one point. Some work needed to set it all up as I want.

Then WE WILL, WE WILL
Old 4 weeks ago
  #18
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santibanks's Avatar
PCM80 is a less reverb oriented unit, the actual reverb bank is the last bank. Most of the effects in there are multi effects based on modulations and delays. Using my PCM80 here a lot on vocals, just the ubiquitous "Tiled Room" reverb. It's probably different from the one in the PCM70 (which is a mono in, stereo out unit) but it works for me. Never find myself using the non-reverbs. Don't see much added value in using these over the delay options i have ITB.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #19
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by santibanks View Post
PCM80 is a less reverb oriented unit, the actual reverb bank is the last bank. Most of the effects in there are multi effects based on modulations and delays. Using my PCM80 here a lot on vocals, just the ubiquitous "Tiled Room" reverb. It's probably different from the one in the PCM70 (which is a mono in, stereo out unit) but it works for me. Never find myself using the non-reverbs. Don't see much added value in using these over the delay options i have ITB.
Plenty of reverb work in the PCM80!
Tons of post processed reverbs partcularly in the Dual FX card.
And programming reverb presets is always a possibility.
These can be unique!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italo de angelis View Post
LXP series has nothing to do with PCM80 and 90.
The two series came out aboyut 10 years apart, mid '80s the LXP and mid '90s the PCM80/90. The LXP algorithms are their own thing, with some (very few) being a VERY much scaled down version of some 480 ones and not as tweakable. Both machines used the Lexichiip 1. Others are a different take of some PCM70 structures. And a few are original ones.
The LXP15 has all algorithms from both the LXP1 and 5.
I re-read my post and I did add some confusion. You're of course correct - the LXP series has nothing in common with the PCM series from a design perspective. My intention was more for reference from the marketing perspective of creating a new design that was engineered more for the home studio market than the earlier Lexicon Pro offerings.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #21
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YashN's Avatar
I'd like to know more about the famed special modulations for some of the Lexicon Reverbs. More than one people mentioned them and not all Lexicon Reverbs have those. If there are textual descriptions or block diagrams, that would help. Thanks.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #22
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RBHan View Post
I re-read my post and I did add some confusion. You're of course correct - the LXP series has nothing in common with the PCM series from a design perspective. My intention was more for reference from the marketing perspective of creating a new design that was engineered more for the home studio market than the earlier Lexicon Pro offerings.
... which was the beginning of the end for Lexicon!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #23
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by YashN View Post
I'd like to know more about the famed special modulations for some of the Lexicon Reverbs. More than one people mentioned them and not all Lexicon Reverbs have those. If there are textual descriptions or block diagrams, that would help. Thanks.
Reverb delays modulation has been around for a long time. It was introduced to avoid some ringing caused by delays (all pass filters) correlated times. Lexicon has a special kind of modulation which is very musical and under control. Many current products sport reverb modulation but none has it as beautiful AND musical. In earlier reverbs, until the PCM70, you had randomization rather than modulation, which is even sweeter. In later products both techniques may be available. Many lower end products (LXP&MPX) don't offer access to modulation but it's still present, either set to VERY low values or simply nulled.
Block diagrams? Forget it!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #24
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by YashN View Post
Grazie mille, Italo, this is going to come in quite handy.

Do we consider 'musical' here a function of the harmonics (more even- than odd-order)? I usually do.

I only need to map the 'delays' mentioned to some of the blocks I have access to and that would be super helpful.

Here are just two I can play with (among a larger set I have access to):

1. In the pic, one LXP-15. This piece of gear also allows 5 simultaneous and programmable 'Exp. Pedal' inputs, so I am going to experiment with controlling these and routing them judiciously.

2. In the other pic, just one of many DSP effects of the KDFX section of my Kurzweil K2500XS. Here, I can also do multiple simple to really complex modulations, as well as two simultaneous, programmable CV Controls as well. Additionally, I can use this (or the other Rev/Delay effects) in parallel, series or a combination of these, and even route them to 1. another large global effect section, or 2. the main Synth engine (V.A.S.T. which provides a huge combinations of DSP processing, together with some internal two Layer series processing with cross-feed, the KDFX can be included in that loop).

Now, for the KDFX, some of the FX processing units already have internal cross-feed routes too.

The first is already on an AUX on my Soundcraft.

There is a plan to do a similar thing to the second one.

There is also a plan to do a similar thing with the Stereoiser/Delay effects of my Korg DW-8000.

So, what could be interesting to know for me is:

On these diagrams as an example, which of the delays or sub-units are to be modulated to try and emulate the Lexicons? (e.g. modulate the Pre-Delay?)
Sorry but this is not exactly what reverb modulation is about.
A reverb is a complex network of delays and allpass filters (linear response delays), often named as FDN. Now the modulated delays (MANY they are!) are inside the feedback paths which build the reverb itself, not before of after the reverb. So there is no way you can even try to emulate the Lexicons because this ain't their way to work. You can post process a reverb thru modulated delays but it will never sound as the expanding cloud of an internally set of modulated delays.
When you apply modulation to a delay its time is going to shift up and down and that propagates in unpredictable ways withing a FDN, creating a particular texture not possible in any other way.

Maybe your Kurzweil has specific reverb algorithms with modulation in them?
When trying to modulate a delay... make sure its interpolated or it will sound like continuos glitches rather than getting chorusy. The LXP15 delay isn't interpolated.
Shortest way to Lex amazing verbs? Get a PCM80 or 90. They're cheap!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italo de angelis View Post
Sorry but this is not exactly what reverb modulation is about.
A reverb is a complex network of delays and allpass filters (linear response delays), often named as FDN. Now the modulated delays (MANY they are!) are inside the feedback paths which build the reverb itself, not before of after the reverb. So there is no way you can even try to emulate the Lexicons because this ain't their way to work. You can post process a reverb thru modulated delays but it will never sound as the expanding cloud of an internally set of modulated delays.
When you apply modulation to a delay its time is going to shift up and down and that propagates in unpredictable ways withing a FDN, creating a particular texture not possible in any other way.

Maybe your Kurzweil has specific reverb algorithms with modulation in them?
When trying to modulate a delay... make sure its interpolated or it will sound like continuos glitches rather than getting chorusy. The LXP15 delay isn't interpolated.
Shortest way to Lex amazing verbs? Get a PCM80 or 90. They're cheap!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #26
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Kronos147's Avatar
When I got my PCM90, I spent time creating a dozen or so patches for myself. I started with a lot of the presets, but the modulation was one thing I felt was too extreme. I de-emphasized the modulation on most of my patches.

Alas, it started turning off after being on for a couple of hours.

I picked up (Ed Cherney's) Eventide 2016 instead. No regrets there!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #27
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kronos147 View Post
When I got my PCM90, I spent time creating a dozen or so patches for myself. I started with a lot of the presets, but the modulation was one thing I felt was too extreme. I de-emphasized the modulation on most of my patches.

Alas, it started turning off after being on for a couple of hours.

I picked up (Ed Cherney's) Eventide 2016 instead. No regrets there!

You know the SP2016 has no mod at all in its reverbs... Plate and Room only.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #28
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 

Unless you have acces to editing the actual reverb structure or create it from scratch... you can't add modulated delays to a closed algorithm.
I'm pretty sure the Kurzweil efx are not open, being very familiar with the KSP8.
You do not get the reverb delays exposed with the option to patch LFOs to them. The only hardware that I know that discloses everything to the user are the Eventide 2U, from the DSP40000... using Vsigfile.
If you just feed back a couple of modulated post-dlys, like in the Kurz image you posted, it won't be the same at all.
You could try searching for FDN images on the web to understand where modulation can be used... but can you build any FDN on what you have available?

You asked "Would adding LFOs to the internal Delay taps help somewhat?".... Internal delays of what?
Maybe you need to explain better what you're trying to do with your mixer as I get the feeling this is not clear.
Inside those machines you have you can't create structures.
Are you trying something like that via mixer Aux Sends? How?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #29
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Kronos147's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by italo de angelis View Post
You know the SP2016 has no mod at all in its reverbs... Plate and Room only.
Yes!

I think that is the sound I was hearing, and why I turned the modulation off or down on the PCM 90.

FWIW, I sold a Lexicon 200, my main reverb, and replaced it with the PCM 90 (to save rack space ). While it has been a couple of years, my recollection is there wasn't any (or little) modulation on the 200.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #30
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by YashN View Post

Inside those machines you have you can't create structures.

Yes I can - to some extent (because flexible routing in both the KDFX and around it, i.e. the synth itself, and on top of that the Mixer) - and I will even use several machines together (in parallel or series).
By creating structures I mean "atomic" control of what you insert in a structure instead of adding pre_made ones and string them (multitaps).
Can you string single ALLPASS filter, modulatable delays, filters, run them in parallel and in series and create feedback paths from any of them to any of them, single or groups? On the Kurz?
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