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How did the pros quantize before daws?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bill5 View Post
Because IT IS different. Sorry not a valid analogy. When you watch a show, it's fantasy, make believe, not "real" and you know that going in. That guy isn't really that guy, he's an actor playing that guy. You expect and assume fakery as the very nature of the product is "fake." With music, it's "real" - and when you hear someone sing, you expect that really is them singing and singing just how it sounds. Or am I the only one who remembers Milli Vinilli?

This is one reason why I appreciate good live performances far more than studio work, overall; you can't just start over and do more takes, and it's very hard to "fake" a performance (although even that is changing somewhat...).
I wish more people would realize that most 'reality shows' are still shows too. The reality part is just the setting, if even that.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #62
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Snorktop's Avatar
 

Chicks dig me because I rarely quantize, and when I do its usually something unusual.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #63
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Uh oh here come the bonham advertisements...

i thought i had my ad blocker enabled wtf?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #64
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At the U of C the training included up to 32 bars o f performance with no conductor. It was completed right on time.

I am reminded of a quote from Carol Kaye: You never had to worry about making the same mistake twice. You never had the chance.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #65
Im old school, you can either play your instrument or you can GTFO. A band is there to write and play their songs. Not to half ass it and expect an engineer to cobble them together because they can't do their job they're supposed to do. They should know their own material like the back of their hand, it should be a second language. If you've got one or two bad notes here or there, sure well punch em in, but if you expect to do your entire track one note at a time, you're fired. I got 100 other friends that actually take being a musician seriously and practice and can nail it with their eyes closed. Hell if Im playing drums into my MPC and I miss a kick or a snare, I dont punch it in or even go draw it in later. I hit stop, rewind and I keep playing that thing until I got it.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #66
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Ed Driscoll's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill5 View Post
Because IT IS different. Sorry not a valid analogy. When you watch a show, it's fantasy, make believe, not "real" and you know that going in. That guy isn't really that guy, he's an actor playing that guy. You expect and assume fakery as the very nature of the product is "fake." With music, it's "real" - and when you hear someone sing, you expect that really is them singing and singing just how it sounds. Or am I the only one who remembers Milli Vinilli?

This is one reason why I appreciate good live performances far more than studio work, overall; you can't just start over and do more takes, and it's very hard to "fake" a performance (although even that is changing somewhat...).
Milli Vanilli is the logical end of the entire MTV '80s, but setting them aside, where do you draw the line? Should the Beatles not have used session musicians and George Martin's arrangements? Artificial double-tracking? Artificial reverb? Mick Fleetwood is a great drummer, but he had no problems using a drum loop for a hypnotic groove on "Dreams." David Gilmour and The Edge have used DDLs to make their playing sound busier than it actually is. Loads of fun pop songs were cut with drum machines in the 1980s. If the technology is there, it should be used and experimented with.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
At the U of C the training included up to 32 bars o f performance with no conductor. It was completed right on time.

I am reminded of a quote from Carol Kaye: You never had to worry about making the same mistake twice. You never had the chance.
is that why the recordings sound as rigid as the mindset?

haha just kidding. im a kaye fan...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #68
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill5 View Post
Because IT IS different. Sorry not a valid analogy. When you watch a show, it's fantasy, make believe, not "real" and you know that going in. That guy isn't really that guy, he's an actor playing that guy. You expect and assume fakery as the very nature of the product is "fake." With music, it's "real" - and when you hear someone sing, you expect that really is them singing and singing just how it sounds. Or am I the only one who remembers Milli Vinilli?

This is one reason why I appreciate good live performances far more than studio work, overall; you can't just start over and do more takes, and it's very hard to "fake" a performance (although even that is changing somewhat...).
Music is still an abstract, though. We're trying to elicit some sort of emotional reaction without doing the thing that usually creates said emotion. Making is just a different thing than playing a show. Different techniques are employed.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #69
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avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monotremata View Post
Im old school, you can either play your instrument or you can GTFO. A band is there to write and play their songs. Not to half ass it and expect an engineer to cobble them together because they can't do their job they're supposed to do. They should know their own material like the back of their hand, it should be a second language. If you've got one or two bad notes here or there, sure well punch em in, but if you expect to do your entire track one note at a time, you're fired. I got 100 other friends that actually take being a musician seriously and practice and can nail it with their eyes closed. Hell if Im playing drums into my MPC and I miss a kick or a snare, I dont punch it in or even go draw it in later. I hit stop, rewind and I keep playing that thing until I got it.
Usually I would give a thumbs up. Hows people reading this and listening to Ravel's Bolero?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #70
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vernier's Avatar
The reason to never quantize ...Earl Palmer !

Old 3 weeks ago
  #71
I love that push pull between swing and straight tempo.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #72
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Muser's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotchicken View Post
Uh oh here come the bonham advertisements...

i thought i had my ad blocker enabled wtf?
so did you think echo and the bunnymen were quantized then,
either in some kind of loop or per note ?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkbirge View Post
I love that push pull between swing and straight tempo.
When a full band is playing sure...but when your overdubbing?

There is no push and pull, there is no swing...

Straight-cakes baby...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #74
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robotchicken's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
so did you think echo and the bunnymen were quantized then,
either in some kind of loop or per note ?
I wasn't sure. I just know if I see john bonhams name thrown around on the Internet one more time I might throw up...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monotremata View Post
Im old school, you can either play your instrument or you can GTFO. A band is there to write and play their songs. Not to half ass it and expect an engineer to cobble them together because they can't do their job they're supposed to do. They should know their own material like the back of their hand, it should be a second language. If you've got one or two bad notes here or there, sure well punch em in, but if you expect to do your entire track one note at a time, you're fired. I got 100 other friends that actually take being a musician seriously and practice and can nail it with their eyes closed. Hell if Im playing drums into my MPC and I miss a kick or a snare, I dont punch it in or even go draw it in later. I hit stop, rewind and I keep playing that thing until I got it.
My philosophy exactly.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
its' funny i saw it as "if then" boolean logic..you got this frigging issue and you proved your mettle by solving any issue in front of you using simple logic and usually it was at 4 am am when you were wacked and sleep deprived..ahh waxing about the old days ..thanx lol..today 75% of what i honed is no longer applicable and now i got this young kid that types fast beat me on functions..ohh the humanity of a fat old fart
Old 3 weeks ago
  #77
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkbirge View Post
I love that push pull between swing and straight tempo.
Earl Palmer was the MASTER of that.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #78
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Muser's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotchicken View Post
I wasn't sure. I just know if I see john bonhams name thrown around on the Internet one more time I might throw up...
you can always record it, try to set up a tempo match, place the first beat on the grid, and see.
but usually it can be easier to find a case of the band performing live.
if it's very close, that can often be the answer. but not always.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
you can always record it, try to set up a tempo match, place the first beat on the grid, and see.
but usually it can be easier to find a case of the band performing live.
if it's very close, that can often be the answer. but not always.
that doesnt work because of tape speed fluctuations. even if it was with a drum machine it still wouldnt line up perfectly in a daw...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #80
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tymish's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robotchicken View Post
I wasn't sure. I just know if I see john bonhams name thrown around on the Internet one more time I might throw up...
Jeez sorry, didn't mean to trigger anyone. I just happened to listen to that performance the night before and was struck at just how solid he was at keeping that slow tempo. One of THE hardest things for drummers to do. Especially when it's such a simple pattern. Phil Rudd is another.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #81
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotchicken View Post
that doesnt work because of tape speed fluctuations. even if it was with a drum machine it still wouldnt line up perfectly in a daw...
Yeah, you'd want something that makes the DAW chase the tape machine.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #82
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O.F.F.'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tymish View Post
Bonham at the least had to be playing to a click here or maybe not.
Not.

Years ago I've read an interview with John Paul Jones after a collaboration with god knows who but according to him that was the first time he encountered a click track.

If you want to hear an inhumanely steady drummer check out the late Jaki Liebezeit of CAN.
I've run Yoo Doo Right through a beat counter, all 22 minutes of it, never varied more than 0.5 bpm.
Yoo Doo Right like all other CAN tunes at the time was directly recorded to stereo and was the result of an 8 hour jam using 3 or 4 different pieces. You can hear the splicing points but no variation in the drumming.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #83
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Muser's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotchicken View Post
that doesnt work because of tape speed fluctuations. even if it was with a drum machine it still wouldnt line up perfectly in a daw...
so are you arguing that pro's couldn't handle quantization on anything which was on tape. ? because I'd assume you're talking about degrees of wow and flutter at this point. because under that argument you'd have to assume that whatever was dependent on wow and flutter, would be down to how low you could get the wow and flutter. any recorded click track should also be subject to the same variable as well.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #84
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earl young ran drum grooves ALONE in the studio after listening to 4 bars of 120BPM click [i was there assisting]..3 reels of tape at 15 ips so about 1 hr 20 minutes of drums... when it came time for the producer to edit the groove pieces into a song..he could edit from reel 1 to 3 and the tempo was a rock..earl had perfect timing like some people have perfect pitch
Old 3 weeks ago
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
earl young ran drum grooves ALONE in the studio after listening to 4 bars of 120BPM click [i was there assisting]..3 reels of tape at 15 ips so about 1 hr 20 minutes of drums... when it came time for the producer to edit the groove pieces into a song..he could edit from reel 1 to 3 and the tempo was a rock..earl had perfect timing like some people have perfect pitch
Hot Damn!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
earl young ran drum grooves ALONE in the studio after listening to 4 bars of 120BPM click [i was there assisting]..3 reels of tape at 15 ips so about 1 hr 20 minutes of drums... when it came time for the producer to edit the groove pieces into a song..he could edit from reel 1 to 3 and the tempo was a rock..earl had perfect timing like some people have perfect pitch
Normally I would give a thumbs up but your post deserves so much more.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bill5 View Post
That might be (at least in part) because really good singers are much rarer now as form is becoming increasingly more important than substance. Hell even people who know what makes a singer good is becoming rare.
I know what makes a singer good! It's the ability to take the word "you" and have it cover 18 syllables, each one at a different pitch.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
so are you arguing that pro's couldn't handle quantization on anything which was on tape. ? because I'd assume you're talking about degrees of wow and flutter at this point. because under that argument you'd have to assume that whatever was dependent on wow and flutter, would be down to how low you could get the wow and flutter. any recorded click track should also be subject to the same variable as well.
all i know is that ive recorded songs which had obvious drum machine grooves in them and they didnt line up...? not sure why exactly, was assuming it was cuz of tape...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robotchicken View Post
all i know is that ive recorded songs which had obvious drum machine grooves in them and they didnt line up...? not sure why exactly, was assuming it was cuz of tape...
it could be for a variety of reasons. if you assume you as an operator did everything perfectly, and you couldn't get something to line up, then you might start looking to other causes to explain the deviation. if there was a lot of wow and flutter on the source then it could be the cause. or it could be a way the player was playing at that point.

or if it's a long section and everything was perfect except that little section, that little section of change could be equivalent to a small change in an otherwise perfect tempo. so that could start to put out all of the grid hit points, after that point. but I guess theoretically, if they then came back to the exact same tempo it should then start to look like a consistent offset, rather than a drifting offset. if something is drifting it usually implies and accumulation of positive or negative changes in tempo. assuming it was already dead on for section of the track. but even a few 100ths of a bpm can soon start to accumulate. so it can be tricky.

non of that however, means that even if the player was perfectly at a consistent tempo, that every element the player plays, will always be accurate to a regular hit points on a grid. even if the tempo was theoretically dead on and consistent in the performance. but even lets say for arguments sake, they were dead on, you still have the amount of swing % the grid would have to line up with for it to still be dead on. assuming the player was also perfectly swinging.

if a player is playing to some kind of sequence pattern and is doing it to a high degree of accuracy and nothing changes in both the sequencer and players performance, assuming you can get the grid to target any swing factor, then anything you quantize to that same factor should be similarly sufficiently accurate and maintain a similar musical coherence. so it doesn't surprise me you might still find difficult to explain variables, even if you did everything perfectly from a technical point of view. assuming you did.

these two videos might be useful to some degree. but they are about the potential variables in the technical equipment and not about the creative variables in a performance context. but still worth thinking about.



Old 3 weeks ago
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
I know what makes a singer good! It's the ability to take the word "you" and have it cover 18 syllables, each one at a different pitch.
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