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How did the pros quantize before daws?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #31
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Exactly, that is one way that you can do it without a “hold”/looping delay.

But also, units like the electro harmonix sixteen second delay and many higher end alternatives, have been around since the early eighties or before... you can basically use the delay buffer to create and hold a loop. It is not necessarily the easiest thing, but you could get the tape machine going a few measures before you wanted to punch, get the delay looping, tweak the varispeed to get them fine aligned in the bars leading up, then do the punch.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #32
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Coates View Post
The (only) way I still do it.
I'm of a mind to use all tools as necessary. I MOSTLY have people punch to fix things, or do a few passes on playlists and edit a master. Sometimes its after the fact, something bugs you more later in the process that you thought it would, so some DAW shifting happens.

Recently, after playing the basics with drums, bass and guitars. There is a whole band syncopated accent thing that appears 3 times in the song. We discussed where it fell musically, rehearsed, did a few takes and played it as decided. A week later the songwriter wanted it more drawn out and less in times. Elastic Audio here we go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
This is EXACTLY WHY I BEMAON MODERN DAWS. There used to be high quality musicianship. You had to be good enough to nail it in a couple of takes. And if you couldn't they HIRED SOMEONE who could. Back in the days you had killer anonymous session players who could read and play anything, any style. Now you have a bunch of mediocre players who expect the engineer to fix it for them. I STILL try to get it right. Argh.

DAWs have spelled the end of great musicianship. If the band came in to record and they sucked you got the tape as evidence. THEN you knew what you had to work on, because YOU SUCKED. Then you practiced really hard and came back three months later to do it better. No illusions. No studio tricks. It was all up to your musical ability.

GET OFF MY LAWN! LOL.
A BIG part of what I love about tape is that it forces the focus into the players. I try not to do timing edits early in the process, or in front of people, because it immediately puts them in the "I just have to get close" mode and out of the "I gotta nail this" mode.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Sure, as long as the errors were early. The majority aren't.
lol, no, but someone already corrected you. :-)

NBD
Old 4 weeks ago
  #34
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo3 View Post
lol, no, but someone already corrected you. :-)

NBD
its' funny i saw it as "if then" boolean logic..you got this frigging issue and you proved your mettle by solving any issue in front of you using simple logic and usually it was at 4 am am when you were wacked and sleep deprived..ahh waxing about the old days ..thanx lol..today 75% of what i honed is no longer applicable and now i got this young kid that types fast beat me on functions..ohh the humanity of a fat old fart
Old 4 weeks ago
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
its' funny i saw it as "if then" boolean logic..you got this frigging issue and you proved your mettle by solving any issue in front of you using simple logic and usually it was at 4 am am when you were wacked and sleep deprived..ahh waxing about the old days ..thanx lol..today 75% of what i honed is no longer applicable and now i got this young kid that types fast beat me on functions..ohh the humanity of a fat old fart
hahaha
Old 4 weeks ago
  #36
If the drummer is slightly delayed it ain't that hard to cut off a tiny bit of tape and put it back together again. Done this a few times, all it takes is patience, a good cut, a demagnetized fresh blade and marking some que points on the backcoating with a white pen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
Lol tony bongiovi made over 120 edit slices in a 2 minute Ramones tune mixed at 15 ips
Holy crap... on the 2"? Which tune? Wanna listen in order to play "spot the edit" with me mates :-) Did he transfer to another tape afterwards? I'd be anxious for a splice to break if I had to work on it, especially if done early in the process and there's still another 200-400 passes til it's a wrap.

Do you have any advice for splicing takes together done by a full band with no click or just click that are faded out after the drums and bass locks in?
The only time I dared doing that so far was when the outro of a song was deviating so much from the rest that any minor changes in tempo wouldn't matter. Added some bizarre noise to cover up the strange double hihat hits... it worked in the end.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
Well, it's not 1975 anymore, and yes, there are a LOT of amateurs and hacks playing with daws, but that's what happens when an industry becomes democratized - would you really rather go back to the good old days when the mob controlled the money, the gatekeepers picked the talent and your ability as an individual to control and realize your art was essentially non-existent?

I didn't think so.

The DAW hasn't killed the "art", it may be harder to be heard over the din, but the potential and possibility to have a career - controlled by you - is finally a reality.
I ABSOLUTELY would prefer to go back then. That's when I made money. That's when there was a standard you had to fight through to get a deal, and to get recognized AND there was a budget to get you to break through or not.

ARE YOU KIDDING??? Absolutely. No contest. Most people today have no real reference point. I had record deals unlike most. Not one but two. And before it all fell apart I set up my own label and got WW distribution in brick and mortar stores when it meant something and before vanity labels were a thing. NO. Those were much better days for the arts in music. Not for the Joe Normal mediocre guy where anyone could release whatever they wanted whenever they wanted. But for those who could clearly rise to the top, yeah, much better. Songwriters could make real livelihoods.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #38
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gravyface's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
I ABSOLUTELY would prefer to go back then. That's when I made money. That's when there was a standard you had to fight through to get a deal, and to get recognized AND there was a budget to get you to break through or not.

ARE YOU KIDDING??? Absolutely. No contest. Most people today have no real reference point. I had record deals unlike most. Not one but two. And before it all fell apart I set up my own label and got WW distribution in brick and mortar stores when it meant something and before vanity labels were a thing. NO. Those were much better days for the arts in music. Not for the Joe Normal mediocre guy where anyone could release whatever they wanted whenever they wanted. But for those who could clearly rise to the top, yeah, much better. Songwriters could make real livelihoods.
Yeah. I also don't believe that the affordability of home recording had anything to do with the demise of the industry, so both could coexist happily: inexpensive DAW-based home recording for the hobbyist to make art for art's sake, a profitable centralized industry for those looking to do this professionally and willing to put in the time/effort to make it happen.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #39
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Most often: Good drummer tight with a bass player

And when that did not work, Click track. Take an old mechanical one and put a mic next to it...click track.


I remember working out a song early 90's where I programmed all the tempo changes into cakewalk and took that PC into the studio in San fran. They had the huge RCA 44's like 13' off the floor and made a tunnel around the kick with an NS10 speaker in reverse for a sub, was fantastic sounding.

I think click tracks take the feel out of things, but there are song very difficult to play right without one. As a drummer give billy jean a try without a click. Very easy to get off tempo and feel.

The really really good studio drummer can site read and jump from 88 to 113 in a single beat with exactly the right feel because they practice at every tempo. muscle memory at every tempo takes some time to build up. That kind of drummer is a rare breed these days.

I'm not that good. I'm lucky to hold a true beet and feel for 2 min, often 1 min. I use a fill or something to break it up allowing me to get back on beat in a way nobody notices. All part of my feel as a drummer. Even with the live pro's it's very rare to see a drummer really hold a beat for the entire song. The drummer(Mr. Beard) from ZZ top was one of the few who could really do this. I remember a drummer holding a beat for a 5 min in a complex song on TV 10 years ago, gave me chills.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #40
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henryrobinett's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface View Post
Yeah. I also don't believe that the affordability of home recording had anything to do with the demise of the industry, so both could coexist happily: inexpensive DAW-based home recording for the hobbyist to make art for art's sake, a profitable centralized industry for those looking to do this professionally and willing to put in the time/effort to make it happen.
they could co-exist but i don’t think they do. The demise of the industry had to do with the public unwilling to purchase music and the labels unable to sell and make a profit. THEN the home recording boom, My Space and so on. The great equalization. Everyone gets an award. People who never in a million years could get a record deal or a producer or marketing were suddenly putting stuff out and mostly garbage. And of course there were always those who never got signed but should have.

I think it’s great this technology exists for anyone to make music. But the labels have all but gone except for the mostly already established stars. Exceptions. There are always wonderful exceptions. But those who tore down the wall and called the empire of labels evil pretty much didn’t know what they were talking about. Labels had the capital to invest tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars in an artist. OF COURSE they’re going to get their money back from record one.

Don’t get me started.

Last edited by henryrobinett; 3 weeks ago at 01:53 PM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #41
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
they could co-exist but i don’t think they do. The demise of the industry had to do with the public unwilling to purchase music and the levels unable to sell and make a profit. THEN the home recording boom, My Space and so on. The great equalization. Everyone gets an award. People who never in a million years could get a record deal or a producer or marketing were suddenly putting stuff out and mostly garbage. And of course there were always those who never got signed but should have.

I think it’s great this technology exists for anyone to make music. But the labels have all but give except for the mostly already established stars. Exceptions. There are always wonderful exceptions. But those who tore down the wall and called the empire of labels evil pretty much didn’t know what they were talking about. Labels had the capital to invest tens of thousands of hundreds of thousands of dollars in an artist. OF COURSE they’re going to get their money back from record one.

Don’t get me started.
agree 80k for 8 weeks of studio lockout for an R&B album with dumped midi instruments and a gtr , horn line strings and vox etc

and THEN 800k for MARKETING ..10 x's the cost of an average album went into the marketing..that's why they would take 3-5 bands in the same genre..dump them all together in a few key markets..let the people decide and keep the top 1 and dump the rest..it was too expensive to do full marketing on a band that couldn't make the cut..they ate the production costs
Old 3 weeks ago
  #42
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Ed Driscoll's Avatar
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Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
There were also a few drummers I recall that could sound amazingly like a drum machine when playing to a click. Not many, but a few could do that. It wasn't a thing that anyone even thought of doing before they heard something like a DMX locking down to the grid. It was a kind of new sound back then that some drummers were chasing. Lot of people thought Billie Jean was a drum machine.
I remembered reading this Modern Drummer interview with Simon Phillips after Pete Townshend's "Face the Face" single made the rounds in 1985:
MD: You mentioned “Face the Face” [White City—Pete Townshend]. Being fairly straight and simple, it isn’t the sort of thing that people might look on as classic Simon Phillips, but it’s got a great drum sound and a magnificent driving beat.

Simon: Some people think that that’s a drum machine. Pete had this idea for a dance-bop tune, and he played a demo of it for me with a drum machine playing that part. I thought, “Oh yeah,” because it’s one of these rhythms on which drum machines sound fantastic and real drummers sound rotten. It’s so easy. The bass and snare just do that. [He mimes alternate quarter notes.] But it has got to sound easy. If you are playing 8ths on a cymbal, the rest of your body can tense up, and the bass and snare beats will sound like 8th notes with 8th-note rests between them, instead of sounding like quarters.
That's unbelievably tight playing that sounds quantized.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #43
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Sigma's Avatar
I was highly dissapointed to find our peter gabriel spent months editing bars of takes to "make" a song .. it broke my heart like finding out bitches brew songs weren't done live but edited snippets ..I thought they flowed into those sections..I never put BB on again .. CAPTURE ENHANCE.. I never signed up for major song surgery ( except as a dance remixer)..pitch timing correction etc..PLAY man...doing those fixes for an artist is like giving a prize to the last person to cross the finish line
Old 3 weeks ago
  #44
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Ed Driscoll's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
I was highly dissapointed to find our peter gabriel spent months editing bars of takes to "make" a song .. it broke my heart like finding out bitches brew songs weren't done live but edited snippets ..I thought they flowed into those sections..I never put BB on again .. CAPTURE ENHANCE.. I never signed up for major song surgery ( except as a dance remixer)..pitch timing correction etc..PLAY man...doing those fixes for an artist is like giving a prize to the last person to cross the finish line
I don't think listeners care about how something was made; all that matters is whether or not they enjoy the finished product. Look at how movies have been made since their birth: artificial lights; fake sets; overdubbed audio; miniatures; matte paintings, and now CGI. As long as the person who bought the ticket enjoyed the ride (or was engrossed in the drama), he's not losing much sleep over how it was made. With an ever-increasing number of tools available to producers, why should music be any different?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Driscoll View Post
I don't think listeners care about how something was made; all that matters is whether or not they enjoy the finished product. Look at how movies have been made since their birth: artificial lights; fake sets; overdubbed audio; miniatures; matte paintings, and now CGI. As long as the person who bought the ticket enjoyed the ride (or was engrossed in the drama), he's not losing much sleep over how it was made. With an ever-increasing number of tools available to producers, why should music be any different?
I tend to agree.

In film, there are documentaries -- where people go for truth and facts.

And then there are artististic works, that may use every trick in the book to capture not reality but verisimilitude.

Like others, I liken most studio productions that use editing, overdubs, punches, and other 'studio magic' to try to enhance the excitement and impact of the music to artistic efforts like novels, fictional movies, poetry.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict...verisimilitude

https://www.softschools.com/examples..._examples/358/
Old 3 weeks ago
  #46
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Most of those almost impossible grooves that you heard on old tape based recordings were just good musicianship. Looking back, it`s amazing to think how much focus and the level of concentration musicians had then. They weren`t distracted by cell phones, computers, video games etc. It feels to me like the average person now can`t hold sustained focus for more than a few seconds at a time let alone practice for 3 or 4 solid hours at a time without feeling the need to check for text messages.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #47
Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo4u View Post
Most of those almost impossible grooves that you heard on old tape based recordings were just good musicianship. Looking back, it`s amazing to think how much focus and the level of concentration musicians had then. They weren`t distracted by cell phones, computers, video games etc. It feels to me like the average person now can`t hold sustained focus for more than a few seconds at a time let alone practice for 3 or 4 solid hours at a time without feeling the need to check for text messages.
Back then, 'band practice' was also creative R&D, brainstorming, exploration. People played together for hours on end trying to perfect their mutual efforts. Their focus in the studio might have been coming up with hit records, but their efforts tended to be built on lifetimes-so-far of playing together with discipline and cooperation with other musicians and focused on whatever group performance they were engaged in at the moment, whether it was on stage or in a studio.

One of my favorite sounding records -- truly beautiful capture -- is from the early 1960s (Cal Tjader's Several Shades of Jade, produced by studio and later filmscore veteran Lalo Schifrin) and quite apparently recorded with few overdubs. (I can't weigh in on edits, but I've never heard an obvious one on the album, which I've owned since not long after it came out in 1963.) I believe it sounds utterly spectacular, ranging from intimate delicacy to full blast, big band jazz charts. And I think it enjoys those qualities because the album fused old school, well-rehearsed, superbly charted ensemble performance with a fin-de-siecle near-perfection of live-in-the-studio technique.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #48
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Muser's Avatar
I've seen lot of evidence where no one cares how something's being made, until they find out how something was made. then they can often seem to start caring a lot. like lip syncing and all the grinding of teeth about these guys winning guitar solo playing competitions. only to be found out later it was all made using certain techniques which didn't involve an actual guitar with a guitar player stuck on the end of it.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #49
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Good rhythm section players made the difference. Remember a good groove often means non perfect but consistant timing and one or more players can be consistantly ahead or behind on timing to drive or relax the groove. There is also variable timing to help with tension and release. Good players working together as a unit is what proper timing and feel is all about and micro timing editing often kills the feel if not done musically.

There were devices for those that wanted machine precision back in 1995 (I think that's when it came out but never used one). It's the Jeanius Electronics Russian Dragon RD-2 rack Mount Rhythm Accuracy Indicator. A blurb off the web about it "Jeanius, a company in San Antonio, has provided the recording world with a tool to simplify the judgment and analysis of all these time errors. It is called the Russian Dragon (RD-R and RD-T), named for its ability to accurately perceive if your audio is "rushin'" ahead or "draggin'" behind a reference source you supply. The idea for the unit came from Audio Engineer/Designer Marius Perron and his drumming brother, who had always wished they had a mechanism to judge how closely he was playing to the sequenced tracks. Marius made the prototype to remove both guesswork from the sessions and tension from not knowing who was right. The unit gave honest feedback to the drummer, the engineer, and the producer. The Russian Dragon was available in a small rack-mount version (the RD-R)" and a less expensive tabletop version (RD-T)." Even with this device you were still subject to the resolution and accuracy of the midi sequencer you were referencing. Some hardware sequencers only did a resolution of 480 PPQ vs. others which were settable to higher resolution of 960 PPQ.

By the way musicians knew amoung themselves who could keep good time and those advancing to high end studio musician roles likely "had the goods". There will however be an ongoing battle between machine precision and music having a soul. The sooner our future robot overlords learn that lesson the better lol. God help us when classical music is all played to a click track.

Last edited by Bassmankr; 3 weeks ago at 07:20 PM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #50
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarmJetGuitar View Post
If the drummer is slightly delayed it ain't that hard to cut off a tiny bit of tape and put it back together again. Done this a few times, all it takes is patience, a good cut, a demagnetized fresh blade and marking some que points on the backcoating with a white pen.



Holy crap... on the 2"? Which tune? Wanna listen in order to play "spot the edit" with me mates :-) Did he transfer to another tape afterwards? I'd be anxious for a splice to break if I had to work on it, especially if done early in the process and there's still another 200-400 passes til it's a wrap.

Do you have any advice for splicing takes together done by a full band with no click or just click that are faded out after the drums and bass locks in?
The only time I dared doing that so far was when the outro of a song was deviating so much from the rest that any minor changes in tempo wouldn't matter. Added some bizarre noise to cover up the strange double hihat hits... it worked in the end.
When tony was telling me the story he failed to say ..it was an aside in a convo where my pop said..6 hands on the console everyone get through a few pases and pick the best one..then Tony said joe , I mixed till I screwed up..ran back and the edited the sections..then we got into editing in general so at the time I didn't think to ask, as much as I would like to know for the same reasons as you
Old 3 weeks ago
  #51
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tymish's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
This is EXACTLY WHY I BEMAON MODERN DAWS. There used to be high quality musicianship. You had to be good enough to nail it in a couple of takes. And if you couldn't they HIRED SOMEONE who could. Back in the days you had killer anonymous session players who could read and play anything, any style. Now you have a bunch of mediocre players who expect the engineer to fix it for them. I STILL try to get it right. Argh.

DAWs have spelled the end of great musicianship. If the band came in to record and they sucked you got the tape as evidence. THEN you knew what you had to work on, because YOU SUCKED. Then you practiced really hard and came back three months later to do it better. No illusions. No studio tricks. It was all up to your musical ability.

GET OFF MY LAWN! LOL.
Bonham at the least had to be playing to a click here or maybe not. Wonder if anything was edited post. But if not,.. damn! Stays at a solid 80 bps till later in the tune it speeds up just a bit to 85. If this is freeplaying then he was a human metronome.

Old 3 weeks ago
  #52
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Ed Driscoll's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tymish View Post
Bonham at the least had to be playing to a click here or maybe not. Wonder if anything was edited post. But if not,.. damn! Stays at a solid 80 bps till later in the tune it speeds up just a bit to 85. If this is freeplaying then he was a human metronome.
I'd like to think Jimmy Page would have said, "There's no way you're quantizing the late John Bonham." But -- there was a fair amount of patching of Page's parts by the time they got to the Knebworth concert on the LZ DVD, by taking bits from elsewhere in the song (and possibly from even the second performance) and replacing the offending notes. So it's possible the performance was quantized to make that process easier.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
This is EXACTLY WHY I BEMAON MODERN DAWS. There used to be high quality musicianship. You had to be good enough to nail it in a couple of takes. And if you couldn't they HIRED SOMEONE who could. Back in the days you had killer anonymous session players who could read and play anything, any style. Now you have a bunch of mediocre players who expect the engineer to fix it for them. I STILL try to get it right. Argh.

DAWs have spelled the end of great musicianship. If the band came in to record and they sucked you got the tape as evidence. THEN you knew what you had to work on, because YOU SUCKED. Then you practiced really hard and came back three months later to do it better. No illusions. No studio tricks. It was all up to your musical ability.

GET OFF MY LAWN! LOL.
I think there are still many excellent musicians out there. I see quite a few of them in my work, admittedly a major market. But great musicians were always in the minority, even Back In The Day. But back then, if you did not belong in that rarefied atmosphere, you did not get the gig at all.

IMO DAWs did not chase away the good musicians, they simply made the mediocre ones more visible. Made it easier for them to "get by". Great musicians are still a minority - but I would not be surprised if the actual head-count was about the same, and it's just that the "haystack" is a lot bigger these days.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #54
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Can`t believe what I`m reading.....maybe because before I begun recording i`ve learned to play in time.....Imagine I have to quantize John Bonham...God help the Music.

Peace
Old 3 weeks ago
  #55
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popmann's Avatar
This thread made my day. I quantized with tape the same way i do WITH a DAW.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #56
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Muser's Avatar
you should look on youtube for fake guitarists. it's hilarious. sort of.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I tend to agree.

In film, there are documentaries -- where people go for truth and facts.

And then there are artististic works, that may use every trick in the book to capture not reality but verisimilitude.

Like others, I liken most studio productions that use editing, overdubs, punches, and other 'studio magic' to try to enhance the excitement and impact of the music to artistic efforts like novels, fictional movies, poetry.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict...verisimilitude

https://www.softschools.com/examples..._examples/358/
Docs go for truth and fact only as far as the POV of the director sees fit, and aligns with that vision.

Every shot, color grading, order of shots, sound fx, narrative and narrator, talking head, music choice - is chosen to serve the POV the director wants you to believe.

New docs, in an effort to be picked up by net flix and others feature quite a bit of cinema - over multiple episodes. Too much padding imo
Old 3 weeks ago
  #58
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vernier's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotchicken View Post
In listening to some of the records of yesteryear, some of the grooves I hear sound wayyy too tight to be true.

I read somewhere that tape was manipulated to correct time in performances.

How common of a practice was this in studios before daws?
ANSWER: tape splicing ...i.e. taking the best parts from a few takes. And later like 1970's mostly, tape loops ...taking a section of tape with a couple measures of a drum beat and run it in circles through the recorder playback heads onto another recorder.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robotchicken View Post
In listening to some of the records of yesteryear, some of the grooves I hear sound wayyy too tight to be true.
That might be (at least in part) because really good singers are much rarer now as form is becoming increasingly more important than substance. Hell even people who know what makes a singer good is becoming rare.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Driscoll View Post
I don't think listeners care about how something was made; all that matters is whether or not they enjoy the finished product. Look at how movies have been made since their birth: artificial lights; fake sets; overdubbed audio; miniatures; matte paintings, and now CGI. As long as the person who bought the ticket enjoyed the ride (or was engrossed in the drama), he's not losing much sleep over how it was made. With an ever-increasing number of tools available to producers, why should music be any different?
Because IT IS different. Sorry not a valid analogy. When you watch a show, it's fantasy, make believe, not "real" and you know that going in. That guy isn't really that guy, he's an actor playing that guy. You expect and assume fakery as the very nature of the product is "fake." With music, it's "real" - and when you hear someone sing, you expect that really is them singing and singing just how it sounds. Or am I the only one who remembers Milli Vinilli?

This is one reason why I appreciate good live performances far more than studio work, overall; you can't just start over and do more takes, and it's very hard to "fake" a performance (although even that is changing somewhat...).
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