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Something that feels sad to me "hint: reverbs"
Old 21st January 2020
  #1
Gear Nut
 
Thavma's Avatar
Something that feels sad to me "hint: reverbs"

After my research on reverb units, plugins and gears I found out that all reverbs are digital emulations. Meaning something that you can have it in a plugin itself!

Not counting the real mechanical or chamber reverbs, knowing that the best are some like Lexicon 480L, Bricasti and TC 6000 which cost over 4k, feels a bit sad to me!

Why don't companies just make THE perfect reverb in a plugin, why do they have to sell the gear for 4k + to look good? Is it for live performance only?

Why is Lexicon PCM 960 at 2,6k euros, and many say that its like the PCM plugin bundle? Why don't they make another best reverb in plugin if its only digital? :( Why bother buying it if its the same as plugins?

We are in 2020 now, I would excpect even better algorithms for reverb, and if all are digital , do it in a plugin! Let it take 90% cpu, but please why don't you do it? :D :D Am I halucinating or out of the subject?

I wish I knew how to code to make my own reverb! Common I think companies can do better! And best reverbs gear seems so expensive. What do you think?

Am I the only one complaining? Can reverbs be better and cheaper too?
Old 21st January 2020
  #2
Lives for gear
 

you missed out on the sampling reverbs and possibly neither (conciously) heard a quantec nor built/used a reverb chamber nor 'created a reverb' by just using (multiple) delays... - anyway, what's a 'plugin'?
Old 21st January 2020
  #3
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Thavma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
you missed out on the sampling reverbs and possibly neither (conciously) heard a quantec nor built/used a reverb chamber... - anyway, what's a 'plugin'?
You are joking right? Plug-ins count the convolution ones too. Thats very fake to me, try to capture a real Impulse response from a real space and put it in ANY convolution reverb with the best techniques and gear, it will degrade the reverb like 70%

I am disappointed from reverbs! Price and quality wise
Old 21st January 2020
  #4
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Thavma's Avatar
5k + for a lexicon 480L while you can have it almost exactly the same with plugins...
Old 21st January 2020
  #5
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looks line you haven't made your homework:

- no, i was refering to the srev1 and dre-s777.
- no, i'm not disappointed about reverbs price-wise: anything after the qrs is cheap by comparison!
- no, each series of lex reverbs behaves a bit differently so you're not getting a 480 from newer pcm series.

maybe spend some money and book a large studio which has some of those efx devices...
Old 21st January 2020
  #6
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Thavma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
looks line you haven't made your homework:

- no, i was refering to the srev1 and dre-s777.
- no, i'm not disappointed about reverbs price-wise: anything after the qrs is cheap by comparison!
- no, each series of lex reverbs behaves a bit differently so you're not getting a 480 from newer pcm series.

maybe spend some money and book a large studio which has some of those efx devices...
I see, I am indeed not so expert in gear. I though you was talking about convolution reverbs. But still
Old 21st January 2020
  #7
Gear Nut
 
Thavma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
looks line you haven't made your homework:

- no, i was refering to the srev1 and dre-s777.
- no, i'm not disappointed about reverbs price-wise: anything after the qrs is cheap by comparison!
- no, each series of lex reverbs behaves a bit differently so you're not getting a 480 from newer pcm series.

maybe spend some money and book a large studio which has some of those efx devices...
Any sound demos of these units exist anywhere?
Old 21st January 2020
  #8
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CrankyChris's Avatar
 

I have wondered the same thing.
Old 21st January 2020
  #9
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Thavma's Avatar
Some also say that Lexicon pcm 60 -70 -80 is better than today's reverbs, I mean common? Its an algorithm, why don't they do something better? Maybe they didn't do their homework? Or maybe I am talking like : why weren't the 1900's humans smarter than 2000's ? hmmmm....
Old 22nd January 2020
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thavma View Post
Any sound demos of these units exist anywhere?
my suggestion to try these efx devices for real was quite serious as i'm convinced you'll be underwhelmed by hearing any demos of which you cannot know how well/with what kinda concept the whole ambient/room sound stage was achieved...

to be more precise: i almost never use dedicated efx on specific sources/tracks but use min. 3 different devices from 3 different manufacturers* on 3 different settings, small/early reflections, medium room/chamber, large hall and feed into devices as needed:
i might use a fourth device to feed from instruments with lots of transients but don't use predelay; a fifth device is maybe a delay, numer six is chorus, number seven is a micro pitch shifter (mostly for guitars and alike), number eight another pitch shifter/octaver (for bass/bass synth) etc.

don't rely on demos/samples!

* you'll want to use gear from tc, lex, eventide, quantec, yamaha etc. - don't just go by a single manufacturer, they all have something others don't have!



p.s. there's an epic thread on lexicon devices here on gs...
Old 22nd January 2020
  #11
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vernier's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thavma View Post
After my research on reverb units, plugins and gears I found out that all reverbs are digital emulations. Meaning something that you can have it in a plugin itself!

Not counting the real mechanical or chamber reverbs, knowing that the best are some like Lexicon 480L, Bricasti and TC 6000 which cost over 4k, feels a bit sad to me!

Why don't companies just make THE perfect reverb in a plugin, why do they have to sell the gear for 4k + to look good? Is it for live performance only?

Why is Lexicon PCM 960 at 2,6k euros, and many say that its like the PCM plugin bundle? Why don't they make another best reverb in plugin if its only digital? :( Why bother buying it if its the same as plugins?

We are in 2020 now, I would excpect even better algorithms for reverb, and if all are digital , do it in a plugin! Let it take 90% cpu, but please why don't you do it? :D :D Am I halucinating or out of the subject?

I wish I knew how to code to make my own reverb! Common I think companies can do better! And best reverbs gear seems so expensive. What do you think?

Am I the only one complaining? Can reverbs be better and cheaper too?
Pluigin verbs are fine ...there really isn't a problem.
Old 22nd January 2020
  #12
Gear Nut
 
Thavma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by vernier View Post
Pluigin verbs are fine ...there really isn't a problem.
Old 22nd January 2020
  #13
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Dr. Mordo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thavma View Post
I have to agree that reverb is still the worst when it comes to plugins.

I've demo'd every plugin I could get my hands on and bought too many, but the only ones I have ended up using much have been the Valhalla verbs (mostly Room) and the Waves Abbey Road Plates. To me, the Lexicon plugins do not compare to even the mid-line Lexicon hardware units I have used. Before I bought Valhalla Room a couple of years ago, I would still fire up my MPX500 rather than use a plugin.
Old 22nd January 2020
  #14
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thavma View Post
After my research on reverb units, plugins and gears I found out that all reverbs are digital emulations. Meaning something that you can have it in a plugin itself!

Not counting the real mechanical or chamber reverbs, knowing that the best are some like Lexicon 480L, Bricasti and TC 6000 which cost over 4k, feels a bit sad to me!

Why don't companies just make THE perfect reverb in a plugin, why do they have to sell the gear for 4k + to look good? Is it for live performance only?

Why is Lexicon PCM 960 at 2,6k euros, and many say that its like the PCM plugin bundle? Why don't they make another best reverb in plugin if its only digital? :( Why bother buying it if its the same as plugins?

We are in 2020 now, I would excpect even better algorithms for reverb, and if all are digital , do it in a plugin! Let it take 90% cpu, but please why don't you do it? :D :D Am I halucinating or out of the subject?

I wish I knew how to code to make my own reverb! Common I think companies can do better! And best reverbs gear seems so expensive. What do you think?
Am I the only one complaining? Can reverbs be better and cheaper too?
First off there is no difference between a plugin reverb and a hardware reverb. They are pretty much the same thing. They are also both emulations of real world phenomena.

From the end user perspective, with the plugin, we are supplying the DSP power, the host mechanism and the A/D D/A converter via our PC and sound interfaces. The hardware unit has all these things conveniently built in. So if you add up the cost of a computer, operating system, DAW, AD/DA and the cost of the plugin, it's going to add up to roughly what a hardware unit costs. This is why the prices difference exists. Not to mention physical units have to be insured, QC'd, QA'd, packaged, stored in a *****house, handled and shipped. All that cost extra money.

As far coding your own own reverb, it's not that difficult to implement something like a Lexicon or AMS reverb. Those algorithms are well documented and easily ported to popular plugin API libraries. Those Algorithms can be dated back to the 1950s and 1960s. The just didn't have a enough IC transistor density back then.

The problem with the Lexicon style algorithms is they are not accurate. They don't consider the physical aspects of acoustic spaces. The old algorithms don't model complex behaviors of sound waves in organic environment and how a microphone would ultimately capture it all.

There are some new reverb approaches modeling acoustic wave equations utilizing second order partial differential equations and recursively path/ray tracing them through a multidimensional environment. The process is computationally very expensive. I would say about 5 years away form being a real-time affordable solution. A cloud solution could be a possibility at some point.
Old 22nd January 2020
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyChris View Post
I have wondered the same thing.
Me too. I'm no programmer, but I guess what you are paying for with hardware units is the analog components, craftsmanship, lack of economy of scale, and undisclosed algorithms which are saved for the hardware versions. All a Lexicon is is some software, processors and physical I/O architecture.

If the math was available, I see no reason why you couldn't just buy the app, even if you needed a total separate computer to run it. I have a hard time believing that the processor inside of a Bricasti is more powerful than a new Mac Pro. And I/O hardware is nothing; couple of DB25 ports. What else is involved?

But again, I'm neither a programmer or hardware designer.
Old 22nd January 2020
  #16
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thavma View Post
Some also say that Lexicon pcm 60 -70 -80 is better than today's reverbs, I mean common? Its an algorithm, why don't they do something better? Maybe they didn't do their homework? Or maybe I am talking like : why weren't the 1900's humans smarter than 2000's ? hmmmm....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Mordo View Post
I have to agree that reverb is still the worst when it comes to plugins.

I've demo'd every plugin I could get my hands on and bought too many, but the only ones I have ended up using much have been the Valhalla verbs (mostly Room) and the Waves Abbey Road Plates. To me, the Lexicon plugins do not compare to even the mid-line Lexicon hardware units I have used. Before I bought Valhalla Room a couple of years ago, I would still fire up my MPX500 rather than use a plugin.
Part of the charm (besides familiarity) of those old units is they analog sections and the (by today's standard) doggy conversion. So even if the mate of the blugin is 'the same' it doesn't mean it sounds the same...
Old 22nd January 2020
  #17
Gear Addict
there are some great plug in reverbs.

i personally still miss lexiverb on the old protools mix tdm systems. not sure why, but that thing just sounded great.

i've not found any plugins that sound like my old sound workshop stereo spring reverbs.

i still have a lot of patches on my pcm70 and h3000 that i have yet to find software versions of.

i don't have any desire to haul around a real plate verb anymore. the vallhalla stuff and uad's emt emulations sound amazing and are totally useable for me. i used to have a lawson plate, and i've used most of the real emt plates at various rooms. the uad stuff sounds incredible...and the new capitol chambers plug is pretty ridiculous.

maybe i can send one of my sound workshop springs to ua or soft tube and see if they can make a plugin.

nah. i want to keep these for myself. haha.
Old 22nd January 2020
  #18
I am very picky when it comes to reverb, I suppose. I typically preferred high end outboard by a sizable margin over plugins, but the gap has nearly vanished as far as i can tell. My new favorite plugins? UAD Capitol Chambers, LiquidSonics Seventh Heaven Professional, LiquidSonics Lustrous Plates, and the new Eventide SP2016 plugin. Try them out!
Old 22nd January 2020
  #19
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swafford's Avatar
 

I'm pretty pleased using my UAD Octo as a reverb platform. Still love my Exponential Audio 'verbs, but Capital Chambers, Ocean Way, EMT 140 etc. are pretty fcking great and have made dialing in multiple reverb sends a lot easier.
Old 22nd January 2020
  #20
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gravyface's Avatar
I mean, all reverb units -- hardware or software -- are "fake": even chambers, some of the classics in the past, was the sound of a Tannoy speaker in an oddly-shaped (and heavily shellacked) room, captured by a mic, sometimes D20s or RCA 44s, hardly full-frequency and quite often not large enough to accommodate the actual players and their instruments anyways.

Even live shows were augmented with plate reverbs in the mobile truck, yet another highly revered, but completely fictional "space" as it were.

Does it sound good? Yes? Have at 'er.

Whether it's in a box or a plugin, it doesn't matter.
Old 22nd January 2020
  #21
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nightchef's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface View Post
I mean, all reverb units -- hardware or software -- are "fake": even chambers, some of the classics in the past, was the sound of a Tannoy speaker in an oddly-shaped (and heavily shellacked) room, captured by a mic, sometimes D20s or RCA 44s, hardly full-frequency and quite often not large enough to accommodate the actual players and their instruments anyways.
This is a really good point. In fact you could make a solid argument that a high-quality convolution IR of a beautiful-sounding space is less "fake" than a physical plate or even an echo chamber.
Old 22nd January 2020
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
... Not to mention physical units have to be insured, QC'd, QA'd, packaged, stored in a *****house, handled and shipped...

Now I really wonder where they store these things ?
Old 22nd January 2020
  #23
It's like the hardware has a frame around it whilst the software is like a picture-to-edge screen. The frame helps me portray the reverb in a better perspective (for my slightly-retro taste) in the mix soundstage. It's a bit more obvious in it's presence but sits back on a shelf easily leaving room for the instruments to come to the fore.
The software reverb plug-ins sound so good that they are hyperreal; good immersion perspective....like being in the room but perhaps sounding less like a vinyl album (which is a sound I'm more interested in).

Everyone should sell their old hardware units...
Old 22nd January 2020
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightchef View Post
This is a really good point. In fact you could make a solid argument that a high-quality convolution IR of a beautiful-sounding space is less "fake" than a physical plate or even an echo chamber.
Room = 3 dimensional
Plate = 2 dimensional
Spring = 1 dimensional
Old 22nd January 2020
  #25
Gear Guru
Try Transatlantic Plate....

Keep in mind no one can make an accurate plug in Bricasti because of computing power.

Dedicated boxes sound the way they do because of the conversion and analogue attached. They ain't just a algorythm....

You can buy VVV for $50- and have reverb coming out your ears until the end of time.

We used to have to be happy with springs so shut up and stop complaining kid!......
Old 22nd January 2020
  #26
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imo the discussion about itb vs hardware in terms of efx (these days) is MUCH overheated (and no, the analog circuits aren't that important) - personally, i'm not interested in this whole retro-clone-plugin-thing and since i'm no designer, electrical engineer or manufacturer but a somewhat experienced user,

i couldn't care less about the technology being used for an efx 'device' as long as i'm getting the results i'm looking for

- could be nuclear!

i do however still prefer 'to plug into' a device than use a 'plug-in' but this stems from the time when plugins put an insane load on the computers, is due to the amount of devices i bought throughout the decades (so it'd be silly not to use them) but mainly that i'm back mixing on (digital) desks for ca. 10 years now:

i hate chasing a mouse/nothing beats touching a ton of knobs to dial in a sound - controlling two of the many devices directly from the desk is also a nice thing to have, as well as owning a piece (or two) of hardware for which i paid and as long as the gear keeps going, no one and nothing stops me from using it.

in this sense, long live hardware efx devices!
Old 22nd January 2020
  #27
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cerebellum's Avatar
 

Agreed. Nothing beats the tasty sounds that are created in the analog domain and then running through hardware to enhance and color.
My ua-610 has been getting a workout since I've been running all my synths through it.Something about that reminded me recently.
Old 23rd January 2020
  #28
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cozmik Prod. View Post
Now I really wonder where they store these things ?
I wrote "warehouse" but I'm guessing my spellcheck picked a different banned word
Old 23rd January 2020
  #29
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cerebellum View Post
Nothing beats the tasty sounds that are created in the analog domain and then running through hardware to enhance and color.
The day all the hardware reverb purists figure this out is the day they can finally move on with their lives. It's amazing how they think they are some elite group of audiophiles. Yet they can't put 2&2 together and figure out the the reason their 35 year old hardware reverbs sound bigger than plugin reverbs is because the hardware runs through several gain stages of an analog console, accumulating color along the way.

Patch in Lexicon 200 on a Neve console and return it to a fader and engage the EQ. The reverb has just gone through 3 or 4 Marinair line input transformers a few Carnhill output transformers and a some inductors. Of course it sounds bigger than plugin. Why wouldn't it?
Old 23rd January 2020
  #30
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Kronos147's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
...Patch in Lexicon 200 on a Neve console and return it to a fader and engage the EQ. The reverb has just gone through 3 or 4 Marinair line input transformers a few Carnhill output transformers and a some inductors. Of course it sounds bigger than plugin. Why wouldn't it?
If you are implying that console users have not tried using a plug in reverb in that same manner, sending the console aux sends to the converters and back to the console, I assure you it has been done.

To each their own but I still prefer the sonics of using dedicated hardware.
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