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Power Issue - What Should I do? Power Conditioner?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #61
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfantastic View Post
Not all extension cables have surge protection. The one you link to does have though.
Right, but according to westom this is a terrible thing to get and would be worse than plugging into the wall, unless I misunderstood?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #62
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nosebleedaudio's Avatar
 

I would get a Tripp Lite, they are very good...Not cheap, but good..
Surge protectors are NOT for protection from a direct lightning hit..NOT possible.
Have seen MOV's explode, components fail sometimes..Fact..
A little known fact about MOV's, you can NOT know for sure if they are good, not the average person..

I prefer the Isobar TrippLite.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #63
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio View Post
I would get a Tripp Lite, they are very good...Not cheap, but good..
Surge protectors are NOT for protection from a direct lightning hit..NOT possible.
Have seen MOV's explode, components fail sometimes..Fact..
A little known fact about MOV's, you can NOT know for sure if they are good, not the average person..
What do those do?

Well I don't need that. I just need to basically be able to plug in and start using my gear sensible. That's all.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #64
@ westom has some valid points.

I use these:- https://www.amazon.com/ART-4X4-Rack-.../dp/B0002OOVOU

While this unit will not stop a lightning strike or stop a charger exploding (which you presumably would not plug into it anyway as is for studio gear) it will power 8 devices safely while only using 1 wall socket and you will not have cables from each device trailing around the floor making it nice and neat.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #65
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nosebleedaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
What do those do?

Well I don't need that. I just need to basically be able to plug in and start using my gear sensible. That's all.
What do they do? Surge protection..
By the way, its very possible the charger was simply faulty out of the box..Most gear is NOT tested very well IF at all..
Only a few truly test/burn in gear, Me for one..It takes time to do that..
I modified a power strip for a client who had A serious power surge plus, I installed fuses in the power strip, far lower than the 15amp breaker..to HELP in protection from further power issues..

Last edited by nosebleedaudio; 4 weeks ago at 12:30 PM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #66
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfantastic View Post
@ westom has some valid points.

I use these:- https://www.amazon.com/ART-4X4-Rack-.../dp/B0002OOVOU

While this unit will not stop a lightning strike or stop a charger exploding (which you presumably would not plug into it anyway as is for studio gear) it will power 8 devices safely while only using 1 wall socket and you will not have cables from each device trailing around the floor making it nice and neat.
Yeah I guess. I can get something similar to that easily and cheaply enough.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio View Post
What do they do? Surge protection..
By the way, its very possible the charger was simply faulty out of the box..Most gear is NOT tested very well IF at all..
Only a few truly test/burn in gear, Me for one..It takes time to do that..
I modified a power strip for a client who had A serious power surge plus, I installed fuses in the power strip, far lower than the 15amp breaker..to HELP in protection from further power issues..
Yes, the charger was identified to be most likely faulty, so I am not worried about that anymore. I just want to know what I should do as sensible basics now in order to get started using the gear. I am no longer concerned about any issues in the premises after the electrician checked.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #67
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
Not sure he understands anything about studio gear though.
Audio gear is electronics. It has been described repeatedly. For example, your audio gear will probably convert a 1000 joule surge into rock stable DC voltages to safely power it semiconductors. A transient that might destroy that tiny joule protector also would not damage that audio gear ... or the many other less robust appliances in a house. But would destroy those tiny joule protector parts in a power strip.

Did you read the numbers for every protector in the specification category called surge protection? How many joules is it rated to 'absorb'. Anyone making any recommendation (if informed) has posted that number repeatedly. Few to no will. Because the most easily scammed ignore all numbers.

How does that hundreds of joules in a UPS 'absorb' a surge that can be hundreds of thousands of joules? It cannot. How does that thousand joules in a protector strip 'absorb' a surge that can be hundreds of thousands of joules? It cannot.

How does that 2 cm protector part 'block' what 3 kilometers of sky cannot? It does not because it cannot.

Any recommendation made without numbers is best ignored.

Effective protection always - not just sometimes - always answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?

Repeatedly recommended is the only protection solution for homes. That is only your 'secondary' protection layer. The 'primary' protection layer also should be protected. Another relevant topic not yet even discussed because so many are wasting time promoting protectors that are even unsafe on cruise ships. Why? How many joules can it absorb before failing catastrophically?

Any protector that fails does no protection. No problem. A surge that catastrophically destroys that tiny joule protector is often too tiny to damage a dishwasher, clocks, refrigerator, LED & CFL bulbs, furnace, GFCIs, TV, door bell, toaster, clock radio, and smoke detectors. What is protecting so many less robust appliances? The same only solution for protecting audio electronics.

Where is the protection in that ART PB 4X4 Rack Power Strip? Nothing. Even its filter is apparently inferior to filters that must be inside all electronic power supplies. It does nothing to protect any appliance. Otherwise a number says how much protection is provided. No numbers because, well, for all we know its only filter is a knot tied in a wire. And yes, even a knot tied in a wire is a surge protector - a near zero surge protector.

So what are they selling? It does not even have a UL 1363 listing - necessary for protecting humans. Let alone anything to protect hardware.

Why would anyone recommend a Tripplite? Again, it is marketed to consumers who all but beg to be scammed. A Tripplite did this: https://i.redd.it/e34962ah06q11.jpg Why? How many joules are listed in its specifications? A damning number.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #68
@ westom Are you trying to help the OP or just baffling him with things he won't understand? Telling him to improve his electrical supply is nonsensical advice - who modifies their electrical supply to plug in their music gear? He wants to plug something like 16 bits of gear into his power sockets. I'd guess that he doesn't have 16 individual sockets so requires something such as but not necessarily, a power strip that will make it easy and safe without him trying to run multiple extension leads or overloading sockets with multiple adapters which in itself is a fire risk.

The circuit breaker in a power strip will only trip to save the unit itself, as with all fuses as you're no doubt aware but will cut out the equipment plugged into it, if trying to draw more than 15A which is unlikely for 8 items running probably no more than 500mA to an amp each. I also don't think the OP mentioned trying to run a furnace or dishwasher in his studio so why the unnecessary 'advice'?

UL (Underwriters Laboratory) is not the only safety standard organisation throughout the world so a lack of UL logo does not inherently mean a device is somehow dangerous or sub-standard. A BSi (British Standards Institute) mark, CE certification, etc... is equally suitable for example - note that the Art 4x4 has a CE certificate which is a European standard.

Not everyone reads Joule information when buying power strips - do you check an airplane engine thrust capability or a boats water displacement before climbing aboard? No because you assume it to be designed correctly. You will also find that microchips (semiconductors) are extremely fragile to damage from reasonably small increases in power so a chip that requires 3V3 will not like 10 volts up it.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #69
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfantastic View Post
@ westom Are you trying to help the OP or just baffling him with things he won't understand? Telling him to improve his electrical supply is nonsensical advice - who modifies their electrical supply to plug in their music gear? He wants to plug something like 16 bits of gear into his power sockets. I'd guess that he doesn't have 16 individual sockets so requires something such as but not necessarily, a power strip that will make it easy and safe without him trying to run multiple extension leads or overloading sockets with multiple adapters which in itself is a fire risk.

The circuit breaker in a power strip will only trip to save the unit itself, as with all fuses as you're no doubt aware but will cut out the equipment plugged into it, if trying to draw more than 15A which is unlikely for 8 items running probably no more than 500mA to an amp each. I also don't think the OP mentioned trying to run a furnace or dishwasher in his studio so why the unnecessary 'advice'?

UL (Underwriters Laboratory) is not the only safety standard organisation throughout the world so a lack of UL logo does not inherently mean a device is somehow dangerous or sub-standard. A BSi (British Standards Institute) mark, CE certification, etc... is equally suitable for example - note that the Art 4x4 has a CE certificate which is a European standard.

Not everyone reads Joule information when buying power strips - do you check an airplane engine thrust capability or a boats water displacement before climbing aboard? No because you assume it to be designed correctly. You will also find that microchips (semiconductors) are extremely fragile to damage from reasonably small increases in power so a chip that requires 3V3 will not like 10 volts up it.
Well this is the point. I understand what westom is saying and I am sure it's all theoretically correct, but most of the information, though I am sure very accurate, is irrelevant to my situation and just skirts around the question without answering it.

The summary of what I take from it all is that nothing mentioned thus far is adequate, but there has been no suggestion of what IS adequate offered either so it doesn't practically help. Unless you count the whole house protector suggestion, which is simply impossible anyway in my scenario.

Not to mention, I am not asking for anything other than to be able to plug in and record without any major disasters likely to happen. Nothing else.

I get that none of the suggestions so far are apparently adequate, however, if that's the case, then simply WHAT is? And if there is something, is it even affordable?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #70
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BrentA's Avatar
 

There's a lot of misinformation in this thread.

Wirecutter tests surge protectors on the market each year and publishes an article with their findings and recommendations. It's not speculative or hearsay, they are actually blasting these surge protectors with 5,000 volt surges while measuring what comes out the other end.

https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-surge-protector/

They recommend the tripp lite for most people, but they said the Furman actually provides the best surge protection, but is overkill unless you are trying to protect a lot of very expensive gear. Well with an expensive recording studio I'll spend the extra for the Furman. As it happens, Furman is the brand I've most often seen in every big or medium sized studio I've been in.

Surges only happen once every seven years? Okay. Having my $xx,xxx gear blown out by a surge every seven years is unacceptable.

I've got a whole house surge protector installed. It didn't cost $1 per appliance, and I don't understand how that makes any sense. It's installed at the main panel so the price shouldn't change if it's one appliance or 50. My electrician charged me $200 to install it including the device. (Wirecutter said it usually costs $500-$1000). The device itself costs $70 so the $1 per appliance doesn't make sense there either. I then have my gear directly connected to Furmans for another layer of protection.

And about overloading circuits or power strips by plugging too much stuff in...it's not the amount of stuff plugged in that overloads, it's the amps/watts. One space heater could overload the circuit/power strip/extension cord before 50 pieces of studio gear. The power strip, extension cord, or even wiring in the wall will specify the amps it's rated for. Just don't exceed that and you can plug as much stuff in it as you would like.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #71
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentA View Post
There's a lot of misinformation in this thread.

Wirecutter tests surge protectors on the market each year and publishes an article with their findings and recommendations. It's not speculative or hearsay, they are actually blasting these surge protectors with 5,000 volt surges while measuring what comes out the other end.

https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-surge-protector/

They recommend the tripp lite for most people, but they said the Furman actually provides the best surge protection, but is overkill unless you are trying to protect a lot of very expensive gear. Well with an expensive recording studio I'll spend the extra for the Furman. As it happens, Furman is the brand I've most often seen in every big or medium sized studio I've been in.

Surges only happen once every seven years? Okay. Having my $xx,xxx gear blown out by a surge every seven years is unacceptable.

I've got a whole house surge protector installed. It didn't cost $1 per appliance, and I don't understand how that makes any sense. It's installed at the main panel so the price shouldn't change if it's one appliance or 50. My electrician charged me $200 to install it including the device. (Wirecutter said it usually costs $500-$1000). The device itself costs $70 so the $1 per appliance doesn't make sense there either. I then have my gear directly connected to Furmans for another layer of protection.

And about overloading circuits or power strips by plugging too much stuff in...it's not the amount of stuff plugged in that overloads, it's the amps/watts. One space heater could overload the circuit/power strip/extension cord before 50 pieces of studio gear. The power strip, extension cord, or even wiring in the wall will specify the amps it's rated for. Just don't exceed that and you can plug as much stuff in it as you would like.
Does that apply to the rackmount Furmans too? And how high budget would you need to go on the Furmans for that? At the very worst case, I don't see how they could be any harm. At most a waste of money / space, but the lower end ones are really not expensive.

The whole house thing, well, I can't do that anyway due to the circumstances previously explained, so no point considering it.

The last part, thanks. Good to know. I am only going to run somewhere from 8 to 12 pieces of gear (maybe 16 but I don't think I am gonna end up with that much) max in the whole room, along with 2 sets of monitors and a laptop. Maybe a guitar or bass amp if I am recording that. Oh and the dehumidifier. So I guess that should be reasonable spread out over 4 sockets.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #72
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decocco's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
So I guess that should be reasonable spread out over 4 sockets.
Number of sockets is not important. If all those sockets are on the same 15 amp circuit, then you can only draw 15 amps total before you trip the breaker. If each socket is on it’s own 15 amp circuit, you can draw 15 amps from each socket, or 60 amps total; big difference!

So you need to know how many circuits you have and what they are rated for.

Your gear and any other electronic devices you plug in will state how much current they draw. Add those numbers up for your total current needs.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #73
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentA View Post
There's a lot of misinformation in this thread.

Wirecutter tests surge protectors on the market each year and publishes an article with their findings and recommendations. It's not speculative or hearsay, they are actually blasting these surge protectors with 5,000 volt surges while measuring what comes out the other end.

https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-surge-protector/

They recommend the tripp lite for most people, but they said the Furman actually provides the best surge protection, but is overkill unless you are trying to protect a lot of very expensive gear. Well with an expensive recording studio I'll spend the extra for the Furman. As it happens, Furman is the brand I've most often seen in every big or medium sized studio I've been in.

Surges only happen once every seven years? Okay. Having my $xx,xxx gear blown out by a surge every seven years is unacceptable.

I've got a whole house surge protector installed. It didn't cost $1 per appliance, and I don't understand how that makes any sense. It's installed at the main panel so the price shouldn't change if it's one appliance or 50. My electrician charged me $200 to install it including the device. (Wirecutter said it usually costs $500-$1000). The device itself costs $70 so the $1 per appliance doesn't make sense there either. I then have my gear directly connected to Furmans for another layer of protection.

And about overloading circuits or power strips by plugging too much stuff in...it's not the amount of stuff plugged in that overloads, it's the amps/watts. One space heater could overload the circuit/power strip/extension cord before 50 pieces of studio gear. The power strip, extension cord, or even wiring in the wall will specify the amps it's rated for. Just don't exceed that and you can plug as much stuff in it as you would like.
^^ All of this - most sense in the thread @ BrentA !

Re: overloading sockets - i'm talking about when you see 4 way into a 4 way into a 4 way into a 4 way situations - I've seen many examples at work and the people responsible are often educated to Engineer level. People don't tend to think of the current that the cable is passing when adding more and more 4 gang extension cables. So where each bit gear drawing 500mA to an amp maybe sounds small in total if you got 16 devices on that chain together that might be on maybe a 10A rated cable for example. The cable getting too hot is your source of a fire right there. A cheaply constructed 4 gang extension cable might have a 13A fuse with cable rated at 10A for example so the fuse wont protect it so can be misleading - especially if you're not electrically knowledgeable.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #74
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentA View Post
There's a lot of misinformation in this thread.

Wirecutter tests surge protectors on the market each year and publishes an article with their findings and recommendations. It's not speculative or hearsay, they are actually blasting these surge protectors with 5,000 volt surges while measuring what comes out the other end.
That wirecutter article is the scam - is classic misinformation. For example, where are any numbers that define protection? None posted. The target market is consumers who ignore numbers - are most easily scammed.

How do any of those protect from hundreds of thousands of joules? Not one does. So they ignore that number that defines protection.

Homes easily have 100 appliances. Circuit breakers, GFCIs, dishwasher, LED & CFL bulbs (all are electronic), microwave oven, recharging appliances, etc. Even toasters have transistors.

At $70, it is less than $1 per appliance. But that is arguing about the weeds rather than view the sky. 'Whole house' protection is tens of times less money that expensive and ineffective plug-in protectors - including every tiny joule protector in that Wirecutter article.

Effective protectors come from other companies so well known for their integrity. Including Intermatic, Square D, Ditek, Siemens, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, Leviton, ABB, Delta, Erico, and Cutler-Hammer (Eaton). All names that any guy should be familiar with.

But again, honest answers provide numbers. Lightning (one example of a destructive transient) is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector (from those other companies of integrity) would be 50,000 amps. Because effective protectors do not fail for many decades even after many direct lightning strikes.

5000 volts is not blasting anything. First off, destructive surges are a massive current. Not a voltage. A voltage only exists when something foolishly tries to 'block' or 'absorb' a surge - like that overhyped and ineffective Furman.

An effective protector means 20,000 amps creates a near zero voltage. As done in facilities that cannot have damage today and over 100 year ago. The science is that well proven - is that old. And not found in any products in that Wirecutter article.

konkon - where is one specification number that says a Furman does anything. Why do you keep ignoring what defines a scam? If that Furman was useful, then he said where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. He cannot. That Furman is hyped by subjective reasoning to consumers who all but beg to be scammed - who do not demand numbers. Where are its specification numbers?

He will not cite any numbers from the wirecutter.com article. It does not test for protection. They created a strawman. Relevant numbers are ignored. Current (ie 50,000 amps). Joules (ie hundreds of thousands). Low impedance connection (ie must be less than 10 feet to the electrode). They do not even discuss the so many fires created by those magic plug-in boxes.

APC recently admitted some 15 million protectors must be removed immediately due to so many hundreds of house fires. APC is a more honest of the bunch. Others will not even discuss what happens when a thousand joules tries to 'absorb' hundreds of thousands of joules.

They recommended a Tripplite. Then why do they ignore this problem: https://i.redd.it/e34962ah06q11.jpg

As also discussed by the Fire Marshal of Gaston county when they discovered multiple plug-in protectors trying to start a fire in their fire house.

If the 'whole house' solution does not exist, then do not use those tiny joule, plug-in devices. Why? Simply read the numbers. And ignore anyone who does not cite those numbers. Ie hundreds of thousands of joules, 50,000 amps, about $1 per protected appliance.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #75
Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
Effective protectors come from other companies so well known for their integrity. Including Intermatic, Square D, Ditek, Siemens, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, Leviton, ABB, Delta, Erico, and Cutler-Hammer (Eaton). All names that any guy should be familiar with.
Practically nobody knows those companies unless they work in electrical engineering bar maybe Siemens.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #76
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfantastic View Post
[MENTION=204925]Not everyone reads Joule information when buying power strips - do you check an airplane engine thrust capability or a boats water displacement before climbing aboard?
Anyone who wants to be scammed ignores that number. You repeatedly have posted irresponsible misinformation (ie that wirecutter article) because you ignore numbers.

UL standard must exist on any protector. Previous pictures are UL 1449 approved units. Even the safer ones still create fires. That Bestek is so bad that it cannot even have a UL 1449 listing. They post deception by claiming the power cord is UL approved. Hoping to play the most naive who always ignore numbers.

Read its title in big numbers. It says how bad it is - 600 joules. Near zero. So tiny that it could not even get a UL 1449 listing. Your argument is that being uninformed is good? They even manipulated you with a vague and misleading 5000 volt number - that measures nothing relevant. Because protection is about the current (ie 50,000 amps) and energy (hundreds of thousands of joules). Volts are only a symptom of ineffective protection.

If a 'whole house' solution does not exist, then safer (for both appliances and humans) is a power strip with that necessary circuit breaker (you do not understand why it is necessary), a UL 1363 listing, and no protector parts. Since those protector parts even compromise what is superior protection inside electronics. Yes, can make appliance damage easier.

Please stop posting subjective recommendations. Those are also called scams. An honest recommend cites the relevant specification number. You have yet to do that - which explains why so many recommend a Furman or Monster product. And why you keep ignoring those fires even created by a Tripplite.

An honest recommendation always says where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. That solution (even proven over 100 years ago) costs about $1 per appliance. And must exist so that plug-in devices do not threaten human life. It is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. That was always outside - even 100 years ago - before that transient even gets inside.

An IEEE brochure demonstrates what a plug-in box does. It simply earthed a surge destructively through a TV in the adjacent room. Being honest, they even state what damaged that TV. 8000 volts were created in that TV because an plug-in protector connected that current to earth, destructively, via a nearby appliance. That protector was doing exactly what wirecutter said it would do. 8000 volts - because it cannot answer the relevant question. Where are hundreds of thousand of joules harmlesly absorbed?

Even the girl who read the meter can install superior and effective protection. The easiest and least expensive solution even protects from direct lightning strikes. Plenty of options exist. None are in bogus misinformation from wirecutter.com. Please learn this technology before making recommendations. That means spec numbers.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #77
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfantastic View Post
Practically nobody knows those companies unless they work in electrical engineering bar maybe Siemens.
Anyone who does anything electrical knows those names - and the many others. They can be found in walls of your house. And in the main breaker box. And not found in color glossy advertising and irresponsible articles that promote scams - ie wirecutter.com.

Please learn how to separate lies and scams from honest and responsible manufacturers. No knowledge of companies of integrity explains so much misinformation.

An honest reply will also say why with numbers. After so many posts, when you do post one honest or relevant number? Never? That explains why Furman and Tripplite products were recommended. Their target market are the most naive consumers - who automatically believe urban myths.

If a properly earthed 'whole house' solution does not exist, then products that most need that protection (ie products in that wirecutter article) are best not used. Then best protection already inside electronics is not compromised (bypassed).
Old 4 weeks ago
  #78
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BrentA's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
That wirecutter article is the scam - is classic misinformation. For example, where are any numbers that define protection? None posted. The target market is consumers who ignore numbers - are most easily scammed.

How do any of those protect from hundreds of thousands of joules? Not one does. So they ignore that number that defines protection.

Homes easily have 100 appliances. Circuit breakers, GFCIs, dishwasher, LED & CFL bulbs (all are electronic), microwave oven, recharging appliances, etc. Even toasters have transistors.

At $70, it is less than $1 per appliance. But that is arguing about the weeds rather than view the sky. 'Whole house' protection is tens of times less money that expensive and ineffective plug-in protectors - including every tiny joule protector in that Wirecutter article.

Effective protectors come from other companies so well known for their integrity. Including Intermatic, Square D, Ditek, Siemens, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, Leviton, ABB, Delta, Erico, and Cutler-Hammer (Eaton). All names that any guy should be familiar with.

But again, honest answers provide numbers. Lightning (one example of a destructive transient) is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector (from those other companies of integrity) would be 50,000 amps. Because effective protectors do not fail for many decades even after many direct lightning strikes.

5000 volts is not blasting anything. First off, destructive surges are a massive current. Not a voltage. A voltage only exists when something foolishly tries to 'block' or 'absorb' a surge - like that overhyped and ineffective Furman.

An effective protector means 20,000 amps creates a near zero voltage. As done in facilities that cannot have damage today and over 100 year ago. The science is that well proven - is that old. And not found in any products in that Wirecutter article.

konkon - where is one specification number that says a Furman does anything. Why do you keep ignoring what defines a scam? If that Furman was useful, then he said where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. He cannot. That Furman is hyped by subjective reasoning to consumers who all but beg to be scammed - who do not demand numbers. Where are its specification numbers?

He will not cite any numbers from the wirecutter.com article. It does not test for protection. They created a strawman. Relevant numbers are ignored. Current (ie 50,000 amps). Joules (ie hundreds of thousands). Low impedance connection (ie must be less than 10 feet to the electrode). They do not even discuss the so many fires created by those magic plug-in boxes.

APC recently admitted some 15 million protectors must be removed immediately due to so many hundreds of house fires. APC is a more honest of the bunch. Others will not even discuss what happens when a thousand joules tries to 'absorb' hundreds of thousands of joules.

They recommended a Tripplite. Then why do they ignore this problem: https://i.redd.it/e34962ah06q11.jpg

As also discussed by the Fire Marshal of Gaston county when they discovered multiple plug-in protectors trying to start a fire in their fire house.

If the 'whole house' solution does not exist, then do not use those tiny joule, plug-in devices. Why? Simply read the numbers. And ignore anyone who does not cite those numbers. Ie hundreds of thousands of joules, 50,000 amps, about $1 per protected appliance.
You obviously didn’t bother reading the article. They did post numbers. They sent a 5,000 volt surge through the Furman and only 40 volts passed through.

If the article is a made up scam, what was the points of the lies? To what end? Their goal is to be a trusted source of information and they explain their qualifications and testing methods, something you haven’t done yet.

You found a picture of a melted Tripp-Lite on the internet. So what? Was it fried from having too many space heaters plugging into it? Was it fried from being plugging into an ungrounded outlet? Were it’s MOVs fried years ago and it shouldn’t have been used anymore? We don’t know and neither do you, so it’s a pointless picture.

You named brands that you think are trusted but you say Tripp-lite is crap. Why? Tripp-lite is the standard in hospitals, where properly working electrical equipment is literally life or death. But according to you we can’t trust it for our compressor?

In the “scam” wirecutter article, they say that according to the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, no home would experience a surge of over 6,000 volts except for a direct lightning strike, which no surge protector will save you from. But you say 5,000 volt surges are nothing.

I don’t have the qualifications to refute the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, but you clearly think you do. So why don’t you share your qualifications with us? Or better yet, if you think wirecutters testing methodology is a “scam”, why don’t you present your own surge tests here for us all to review?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #79
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by decocco View Post
Number of sockets is not important. If all those sockets are on the same 15 amp circuit, then you can only draw 15 amps total before you trip the breaker. If each socket is on it’s own 15 amp circuit, you can draw 15 amps from each socket, or 60 amps total; big difference!

So you need to know how many circuits you have and what they are rated for.

Your gear and any other electronic devices you plug in will state how much current they draw. Add those numbers up for your total current needs.
Okay, so you're saying if they add up to more than that, I simply can't use them?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfantastic View Post
^^ All of this - most sense in the thread @ BrentA !

Re: overloading sockets - i'm talking about when you see 4 way into a 4 way into a 4 way into a 4 way situations - I've seen many examples at work and the people responsible are often educated to Engineer level. People don't tend to think of the current that the cable is passing when adding more and more 4 gang extension cables. So where each bit gear drawing 500mA to an amp maybe sounds small in total if you got 16 devices on that chain together that might be on maybe a 10A rated cable for example. The cable getting too hot is your source of a fire right there. A cheaply constructed 4 gang extension cable might have a 13A fuse with cable rated at 10A for example so the fuse wont protect it so can be misleading - especially if you're not electrically knowledgeable.
So I guess that doesn't sound like anything I will be doing?


Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
That wirecutter article is the scam - is classic misinformation. For example, where are any numbers that define protection? None posted. The target market is consumers who ignore numbers - are most easily scammed.

How do any of those protect from hundreds of thousands of joules? Not one does. So they ignore that number that defines protection.

Homes easily have 100 appliances. Circuit breakers, GFCIs, dishwasher, LED & CFL bulbs (all are electronic), microwave oven, recharging appliances, etc. Even toasters have transistors.

At $70, it is less than $1 per appliance. But that is arguing about the weeds rather than view the sky. 'Whole house' protection is tens of times less money that expensive and ineffective plug-in protectors - including every tiny joule protector in that Wirecutter article.

Effective protectors come from other companies so well known for their integrity. Including Intermatic, Square D, Ditek, Siemens, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, Leviton, ABB, Delta, Erico, and Cutler-Hammer (Eaton). All names that any guy should be familiar with.

But again, honest answers provide numbers. Lightning (one example of a destructive transient) is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector (from those other companies of integrity) would be 50,000 amps. Because effective protectors do not fail for many decades even after many direct lightning strikes.

5000 volts is not blasting anything. First off, destructive surges are a massive current. Not a voltage. A voltage only exists when something foolishly tries to 'block' or 'absorb' a surge - like that overhyped and ineffective Furman.

An effective protector means 20,000 amps creates a near zero voltage. As done in facilities that cannot have damage today and over 100 year ago. The science is that well proven - is that old. And not found in any products in that Wirecutter article.

konkon - where is one specification number that says a Furman does anything. Why do you keep ignoring what defines a scam? If that Furman was useful, then he said where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. He cannot. That Furman is hyped by subjective reasoning to consumers who all but beg to be scammed - who do not demand numbers. Where are its specification numbers?

He will not cite any numbers from the wirecutter.com article. It does not test for protection. They created a strawman. Relevant numbers are ignored. Current (ie 50,000 amps). Joules (ie hundreds of thousands). Low impedance connection (ie must be less than 10 feet to the electrode). They do not even discuss the so many fires created by those magic plug-in boxes.

APC recently admitted some 15 million protectors must be removed immediately due to so many hundreds of house fires. APC is a more honest of the bunch. Others will not even discuss what happens when a thousand joules tries to 'absorb' hundreds of thousands of joules.

They recommended a Tripplite. Then why do they ignore this problem: https://i.redd.it/e34962ah06q11.jpg

As also discussed by the Fire Marshal of Gaston county when they discovered multiple plug-in protectors trying to start a fire in their fire house.

If the 'whole house' solution does not exist, then do not use those tiny joule, plug-in devices. Why? Simply read the numbers. And ignore anyone who does not cite those numbers. Ie hundreds of thousands of joules, 50,000 amps, about $1 per protected appliance.
I am not ignoring it, hence why I have not bought a Furman upto now. I have not done anything because I am still not clear on what to do. If I were ignoring the information you gave I would have already bought something.

However, I understand what you say is no use, dangerous, or a waste of money, but in that case, what DO I do? And the whole house protector is not possible, which I have said many times. So what DO I actually do? I don't need to know any more things I should NOT do. I just need to know what I SHOULD do, aside from the impossible suggestion of a whole house protector.

I still have no clear answer on this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
Anyone who does anything electrical knows those names - and the many others. They can be found in walls of your house. And in the main breaker box. And not found in color glossy advertising and irresponsible articles that promote scams - ie wirecutter.com.

Please learn how to separate lies and scams from honest and responsible manufacturers. No knowledge of companies of integrity explains so much misinformation.

An honest reply will also say why with numbers. After so many posts, when you do post one honest or relevant number? Never? That explains why Furman and Tripplite products were recommended. Their target market are the most naive consumers - who automatically believe urban myths.

If a properly earthed 'whole house' solution does not exist, then products that most need that protection (ie products in that wirecutter article) are best not used. Then best protection already inside electronics is not compromised (bypassed).
So in the end, by saying "best not used", are you saying I simply can't use my gear if I don't have a whole house protector? And there's absolutely no other solution than that? Which I already made clear I can't get.

Thanks.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #80
Gear Maniac
fu***ng reddit posters

Just answer the mans question instead of saying everything is a scam. Are you suggesting that having nothing between the outlet and device is "best solution?"

Then say so and be done with it.

I'd still go for the UPS. My other setup is a van with 2 RV batteries in parallel (charged by an isolator relay whenever the engine is on) and a 2000W pure sine wave inverter that allows cleaner energy than the power grid (no noises or interference), absolutely clean audio when recording compared to when plugged in any outlet. I can sit in the middle of a desert with the van off and record a full band setup for a few hours before needing to turn the engine on and recharge the RV batteries.

I'm not making clear and safe recordings on scams.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #81
Lives for gear
 
BrentA's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
Does that apply to the rackmount Furmans too? And how high budget would you need to go on the Furmans for that? At the very worst case, I don't see how they could be any harm. At most a waste of money / space, but the lower end ones are really not expensive.

The whole house thing, well, I can't do that anyway due to the circumstances previously explained, so no point considering it.

The last part, thanks. Good to know. I am only going to run somewhere from 8 to 12 pieces of gear (maybe 16 but I don't think I am gonna end up with that much) max in the whole room, along with 2 sets of monitors and a laptop. Maybe a guitar or bass amp if I am recording that. Oh and the dehumidifier. So I guess that should be reasonable spread out over 4 sockets.
I think you mentioned that you have a subpanel. An electrician may be able to install a surge protector at the subpanel. I don’t know. But I would just get a furman or Tripp-lite. Cheaper, easier, you can turn all your gear on and off with one switch, and when you move you can take it with you.

I wouldn’t be surprised if your dehumidifier draws more current than all of your studio gear put together. Put it on a different circuit if possible.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #82
Lives for gear
 
konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattpyter View Post
fu***ng reddit posters

Just answer the mans question instead of saying everything is a scam. Are you suggesting that having nothing between the outlet and device is "best solution?"

Then say so and be done with it.
Haha. Right. This is exactly what I am asking. I don't know why I can't get a clear answer on such a simple matter.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #83
Lives for gear
 
konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentA View Post
I think you mentioned that you have a subpanel. An electrician may be able to install a surge protector at the subpanel. I don’t know. But I would just get a furman or Tripp-lite. Cheaper, easier, you can turn all your gear on and off with one switch, and when you move you can take it with you.

I wouldn’t be surprised if your dehumidifier draws more current than all of your studio gear put together. Put it on a different circuit if possible.
Yes, in theory, but the landlord will not let me do anything that interferes with their place.

Well that's what I thought too, but apparently aren't those all hazardous and scams? According the the previous posts.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #84
Lives for gear
 
BrentA's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
Yes, in theory, but the landlord will not let me do anything that interferes with their place.

Well that's what I thought too, but apparently aren't those all hazardous and scams? According the the previous posts.
Only one person in this thread is saying they are hazardous and scams, seems like everyone else is recommending them. The super cheap ones are probably not very effective but the more expensive name brand ones will indeed offer some surge protection. You’ll probably be fine either way, but considering what’s at stake, I like having some surge protection. Surges are rare but they do happen.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #85
Lives for gear
 
konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentA View Post
Only one person in this thread is saying they are hazardous and scams, seems like everyone else is recommending them. The super cheap ones are probably not very effective but the more expensive name brand ones will indeed offer some surge protection. You’ll probably be fine either way, but considering what’s at stake, I like having some surge protection. Surges are rare but they do happen.
Thanks. I just need to get on with recording. If I don't get on with things soon, the consequences will be far greater than the value of all my gear blowing, so I don't suppose I can dwell on this subject any longer and let it hold me back from starting.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #86
Gear Maniac
Yes exactly, surges do happen, and so do blackouts and brownouts (short flickers of power) - and that UPS saved my ass on many occasions in the middle of various projects - which is why I recommended it.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #87
Lives for gear
 
decocco's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
Okay, so you're saying if they add up to more than that, I simply can't use them?
If you have multiple circuits, you can spread the current draw out over those circuits. You wouldn’t want to try to draw anything greater than what each circuit is rated for.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #88
Lives for gear
 
konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by decocco View Post
If you have multiple circuits, you can spread the current draw out over those circuits. You wouldn’t want to try to draw anything greater than what each circuit is rated for.
Alright. It might be tough to find that out though.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #89
Lives for gear
 
decocco's Avatar
 

The electrician would be able to tell you, if you cannot find out otherwise.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #90
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentA View Post
Only one person in this thread is saying they are hazardous and scams, seems like everyone else is recommending them.
Most only recite what advertising (propaganda), hearsay, and other subjective reasoning says. How many here designed these things? How many traced surge damage (created by that box) and then submitted results to design reviews? Where is a single fact that says plug-in protectors did any protection? Not one makes that claim.

One can learn what so many professional organizations say. In every case, an effective protector connects low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to earth ground electrodes: https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/c...otect/dq8qkdf/

Best protection is from a microseconds event that might happen once every seven years. What professional organization says otherwise?

Next best thing is to plug directly into the wall so that robust protection inside each appliance is effective - is not compromised. Worst thing is to spend $25 or $85 on a so called 'quality' plug-in box.

Where is even one professional citation that contradict? Not anywhere here. Not in any posted specification numbers. And not from professional organizations.

If a properly earthed 'whole house solution does not exist, then next best protection is already inside electronics. Even a fire threat is averted

What is the difference between a $10 protector selling in Walmart and those overhyped protectors from Tripplite, APC, and Monster selling for even as much as $85? Very little.

Anyone can read why in specification numbers. How do those minuscule joule protectors (from Belkin or Tripplite) 'block' or 'absorb' a potentially destructive surge - hundreds of thousands of joules? They don't. That scam successfully markets to consumers who ignore facts with numbers.

Best protection is a 'secondary' protection layer provided by an earthed 'whole house' solution - and a 'primary' protection layer. If that 'secondary' layer does not exist, then best is to not subvert robust protection inside appliances by using expensive plug-in boxes. Also verify that responsible parties have properly maintained that 'primary' protection layer.

Discover that many companies (ie Microsoft's Xbox, HP's printers) recommend connecting direct to a wall receptacle. Why? Already stated so many times by someone who was doing this stuff even long before an IBM PC existed. How many others learned by even designing surge protector circuits? Or by simply reading spec numbers?

Plug-in protectors are only recommended when one has no idea how they work, technical lies were believed, and specification numbers were ignored. The relevant question: where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Other companies, so well known for their integrity, answer that question. As does someone who even designed this stuff - and learned even from some embarrassing mistakes.

Better protection: plug directly into a wall receptacle - as even Microsoft and HP recommend.
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