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Analog Hardware Alternative To Plate Reverb
Old 3 weeks ago
  #91
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retractablezing's Avatar
 

Some (doesn't matter which 'cause prices are already absurd) spring reverbs can pull a pretty convincing plate, especially with some pre and post processing, personally that's the only shortcut i know of.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #92
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by retractablezing View Post
Some (doesn't matter which 'cause prices are already absurd) spring reverbs can pull a pretty convincing plate, especially with some pre and post processing, personally that's the only shortcut i know of.
I wonder if mine could do something like this?

It's a Vermona DSR-3.

https://www.vermona.com/en/products/...product/dsr-3/
Old 3 weeks ago
  #93
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retractablezing's Avatar
 

You really need to experiment. I've never used a Vermona, but i have no reason to think that something that expensive isn't a well implemented spring reverb capable of a large range of sounds. If it's 3 or more big springs per channel, i'm pretty sure you can get something convincing out of it, that won't sound boxy. If i were trying to get plate like sounds with that, i'd start with not driving the input very hard, keeping it relatively clean and big. Usually, eq'uing some of the low end before it hits the springs is key to avoid buildup (no idea if that built-in eq comes before the springs or after, but if it affects the signal before it hits the springs, just use that). If you want a pre-delay, just slap something before it, you're either going for a tape-esque delay (like in the old days, i use a belle epoche pedal cause who cares) or a clean, good sounding digital delay if you feel you're loosing definition. I usually don't put much thought into it as long as it's not absurdly noisy, but impedance matching is important. Most plate emulations also seem to have some sort of modulation going on, i'd experiment with something on the output that might not work at all, i dunno (no idea what i'd use here). Then compress the output to taste for size and grain/colour (something with transformers will give it more weight and maybe even help with the noise a bit).

In my experience though, i really prefer a dirty big sounding spring to a plate reverb, as long as it's not washed in noise, but then again, i'm not doing commercial work nor do i have any interest in fidelity in terms of a clean sounding recording. This to say that i think you have a pretty good piece of kit there, once you start experimenting you might not even care if it's a plate or a spring anymore, maybe you'll end up getting the sound that's exactly in your head with what you have laying around.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #94
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by retractablezing View Post
You really need to experiment. I've never used a Vermona, but i have no reason to think that something that expensive isn't a well implemented spring reverb capable of a large range of sounds. If it's 3 or more big springs per channel, i'm pretty sure you can get something convincing out of it, that won't sound boxy. If i were trying to get plate like sounds with that, i'd start with not driving the input very hard, keeping it relatively clean and big. Usually, eq'uing some of the low end before it hits the springs is key to avoid buildup (no idea if that built-in eq comes before the springs or after). If you want a pre-delay, just slap something before it, you're either going for a tape-esque delay (like in the old days, i use a belle epoche pedal cause who cares) or a clean, good sounding digital delay if you feel you're loosing definition. I usually don't put much thought into it as long as it's not absurdly noisy, but impedance matching is important. Most plate emulations also seem to have some sort of modulation going on, i'd experiment with something on the output that might not work at all, i dunno (no idea what i'd use here). Then compress the output to taste for size and grain/colour (something with transformers will give it more weight and maybe even help with the noise a bit).

In my experience though, i really prefer a dirty big sounding spring to a plate reverb, as long as it's not washed in noise, but then again, i'm not doing commercial work nor do i have any interest in fidelity in terms of a clean sounding recording. This to say that i think you have a pretty good piece of kit there, once you start experimenting you might not even care if it's a plate or a spring anymore, maybe you'll end up getting the sound that's exactly in your head with what you have laying around.
Yeah, I don't literally need it to sound like a plate, though I kinda like the sound of a plate. I just want some variety of reverb sounds that's all. This way everything in a mix won't have the exact same type of reverb with the exact same settings. I figured with this unit I can get a decent amount of variation using methods such as the good ideas you described. Thanks!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #95
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retractablezing's Avatar
 

Just listened to some demos on the Vermona website. I think you have an ideal starting point for a plate-like sound with that. Being modern kit is a major plus here, you''ll have much less noise than with vintage stuff and something that will arguably last a lot longer too. If you want more "springy" sounds, just drive the input and play around with the eq. I really think you have a great piece of kit there, versatile too. Just have fun with it.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #96
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What? 4 pages of posts with this heading and not one mention of this?? :

http://www.zerotronics.com/coolsprings/index.html

The most plate like spring verb I have heard. Always fancied building my own version, as you can see from the schematic on the picture it's just some transformers and a few spring tanks. Passive, go into mic pre of your choice.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andychamp View Post
He vastly improves on the sound in the 2nd video.
Ooh!

I got excited and started digging for parts...guess I should watch the rest.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #98
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by retractablezing View Post
Just listened to some demos on the Vermona website. I think you have an ideal starting point for a plate-like sound with that. Being modern kit is a major plus here, you''ll have much less noise than with vintage stuff and something that will arguably last a lot longer too. If you want more "springy" sounds, just drive the input and play around with the eq. I really think you have a great piece of kit there, versatile too. Just have fun with it.
Thanks. Yeah, well I haven't fired it up yet but I am expecting it to be pretty decent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
What? 4 pages of posts with this heading and not one mention of this?? :

http://www.zerotronics.com/coolsprings/index.html

The most plate like spring verb I have heard. Always fancied building my own version, as you can see from the schematic on the picture it's just some transformers and a few spring tanks. Passive, go into mic pre of your choice.
Wow that looks interesting too. After blowing on the Vermona though I couldn't afford that as well.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #99
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Pale Pyramid's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
What? 4 pages of posts with this heading and not one mention of this?? :

http://www.zerotronics.com/coolsprings/index.html

The most plate like spring verb I have heard. Always fancied building my own version, as you can see from the schematic on the picture it's just some transformers and a few spring tanks. Passive, go into mic pre of your choice.
I haven’t thought about these for years. They discontinued some models I was interested in long ago as the parts were NOS and unavailable. Baldwin organ springs and such.

Last edited by Pale Pyramid; 3 weeks ago at 01:59 PM.. Reason: Predictive text sabotage
Old 3 weeks ago
  #100
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Pyramid View Post
I haven’t thought about these for years. They discontinued some models I was interested in long ago as the parts were NOS and unavailable. Baldwin organ springs and such.
Yeah, the little boxes, but I think the big one is standard accutronics 9's. One day I will make a box like that with some nice transformers. Just hasn't won the priority battles yet.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #101
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Pale Pyramid's Avatar
I forgot to mention this tube spring that is somewhere between a room/ plate.

http://www.vintage47amps.com/Reverb/

I have one and use it 90% of the time when I want a tube spring. It’s pretty cool. I have a fender tube spring that Is spring and surfy. And then 4 non tube rack unit springs that are mono/stereo. Tracking guitar, this 47 is my general choice.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #102
Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
This way everything in a mix won't have the exact same type of reverb with the exact same settings. I figured with this unit I can get a decent amount of variation using methods such as the good ideas you described. Thanks!
Actually that's exactly what I do on purpose. I used to do all sorts of different reverbs. Different reverb on vocals, guitars etc. Then about the time I started using sends and returns from my console for reverb I discovered I much prefer the same exact reverb on everything in the mix (with the exception of the snare). Seems to sort of glue things together by putting everything in the same space.

Last edited by psycho_monkey; 3 weeks ago at 11:34 PM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Coates View Post
Then about the time I started using sends and returns from my console for reverb I discovered I much prefer the same exact reverb on everything in the mix (with the exception of the snare). Seems to sort of glue things together by putting everything in the same space.
Exactly my experience and preference as well, and that goes for reverb as well as preamp.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #104
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Coates View Post
Actually that's exactly what I do on purpose. I used to do all sorts of different reverbs. Different reverb on vocals, guitars etc. Then about the time I started using sends and returns from my console for reverb I discovered I much prefer the same exact reverb on everything in the mix (with the exception of the snare). Seems to sort of glue things together by putting everything in the same space.
Ah really. I planned to try both ways and all sorts of combinations and see what works. Interesting to know that though.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
This way everything in a mix won't have the exact same type of reverb with the exact same settings.
For me, one of the main functions of reverb is to blend the instruments together - to make them sound like they are sharing a common space. For this purpose you do want the same reverb with the same settings which is one reason why we still use send and return in the DAW. Even though theoretically we could stick a different plug with a different setting on every individual instrument, we rarely do.

I typically use 3 - 5 reverbs in an average mix, but one is the "main" reverb, the room that everyone (or nearly everyone) is "in". Various instruments will get different proportions of the alternative sounds, but these are almost always overlapped. The overlapping helps the blend and is usually used to expand on the idea of 'shared space' - for example, creating the impression that this instrument is 'further back' in the shared space than the others - or that instrument is in a kind of 'corner' of the shared space.

Once in a while one or two instruments in a mix will get their "own" reverb. For me that is pretty rare. But pretty much never would I give every instrument its "own" reverb.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #106
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Don't laugh guys, but 3 under the radar Plate reverbs are...
Alesis Nanoverb Plate 1.
TC M100 or Behringer FEX800 (each same effects)
Bremmer's Multitrackstudio stock plate reverb

Below is an acapella clip using 7% Plate/5% Hall,
of the stock Multitrackstudio plugins.
Chris
Attached Files

handlewithcareP120edit.mp3 (663.9 KB, 382 views)

Old 3 weeks ago
  #107
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
For me, one of the main functions of reverb is to blend the instruments together - to make them sound like they are sharing a common space. For this purpose you do want the same reverb with the same settings which is one reason why we still use send and return in the DAW. Even though theoretically we could stick a different plug with a different setting on every individual instrument, we rarely do.

I typically use 3 - 5 reverbs in an average mix, but one is the "main" reverb, the room that everyone (or nearly everyone) is "in". Various instruments will get different proportions of the alternative sounds, but these are almost always overlapped. The overlapping helps the blend and is usually used to expand on the idea of 'shared space' - for example, creating the impression that this instrument is 'further back' in the shared space than the others - or that instrument is in a kind of 'corner' of the shared space.

Once in a while one or two instruments in a mix will get their "own" reverb. For me that is pretty rare. But pretty much never would I give every instrument its "own" reverb.
This makes a lot of sense. Will take it into consideration.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #108
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
Don't laugh guys, but 3 under the radar Plate reverbs are...
Alesis Nanoverb Plate 1.
TC M100 or Behringer FEX800 (each same effects)
Bremmer's Multitrackstudio stock plate reverb

Below is an acapella clip using 7% Plate/5% Hall,
of the stock Multitrackstudio plugins.
Chris
That sounds pretty good actually. Then again I am no expert.

I did see an Alesis Midiverb II for sale locally for almost free. I figured it was junk though so just passed it up. I have no idea it's similar to the Nanoverb though.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #109
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robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
Don't laugh guys, but 3 under the radar Plate reverbs are...
Alesis Nanoverb Plate 1.
TC M100 or Behringer FEX800 (each same effects)
Bremmer's Multitrackstudio stock plate reverb

Below is an acapella clip using 7% Plate/5% Hall,
of the stock Multitrackstudio plugins.
Chris
Once again, it's more what you feed the reverb than the reverb choice itself. That is a very fine recording of a vocal - pretty much any decent verb would sound fine on it.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #110
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Thanks! That was an "off the cuff"/one take acapella, done after hours, at work.
AKG P120>Presonus Audiobox.

If anyone else has clips, I look forward to hearing them.
Chris
Old 3 weeks ago
  #111
Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
Why do you need a desk to do this? Unfortunately I don't have a desk or a tape delay (yet). I can't seem to find a tape echo that does what I want and is affordable at the same time.

I have a pretty nice spring reverb unit though with two channels and EQ on each. It can also be used as stereo, dual mono, or in series, so there are tons of options there I guess if I get inventive.
We could have the same spring reverb - Korg GR-1?

On top of what already have been said for why you need an analog desk, it's also very usefull if you wanna use a half decent consumer reel to reel as your tape delay. If you want to make the delay feedback, you'll send it back to itself from its return on the mixing desk.

I might have been a bit categoric in saying that it's an absolute must have, I don't really work in digital and it could be possible with the right inputs/outputs and skills. But it sure makes life easier to have a desk. Just a tiny Soundcraft or even a Mackie, although don't get the latter for the sound but only for ease of operation with stuff like this.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #112
With all this talk of turning springs into faux-plates, I still think a decent plugin (or even cheap digital hardware) is going to sound more “plate like” than a spring.

I love the AKG Spring, and the UAD emulation of it. It’s way smoother and less “bouncy”.

But it’s not a plate.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #113
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
With all this talk of turning springs into faux-plates, I still think a decent plugin (or even cheap digital hardware) is going to sound more “plate like” than a spring.

I love the AKG Spring, and the UAD emulation of it. It’s way smoother and less “bouncy”.

But it’s not a plate.
Yup, then AKG ones are sweet as well of course. But there is a difference when something is real and when something is a plug. Also, the man asked for hardware for a reason I expect.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
But there is a difference when something is real and when something is a plug.
Well, we disagree somewhat there and given that I posted a fully ITB mix earlier that got a fair bit of "I can't believe it's not analogue!" response, I guess I'm doing ok with that approach!

Let me put it another way. You're making lasagne. For some explicable reason, the shops are out of any recognisable beef, veal, pork or even chicken mince. The options you have are synthetic vegetarian "mince" or kangaroo mince.

Now - kangaroo is "meat" so it's "real". It's also incredibly pungent, gamey and tastes nothing like beef. You *could* make lasagne with it...and it might be nice, done well! but it wouldn't taste like a traditional lasagne.

Or you could go with the synthetic option. Back to back with the "real" thing, might it not be quite as "beef-like"? Sure (although I've had at least one vegetarian lasagne that I wouldn't have picked as not beef).

Would it taste more like the intent (assuming the intent IS a beef lasagne) than the other? Definitely.

If you're making a beef lasagne, it's by far the best option as a substitute.

That's my point - if you WANT a plate sound but can't afford a plate, something that sounds like a plate even if it's not "real" or 100% accurate is far better than something that doesn't sound like a plate but is at least "real".

Assuming you want a plate sound!

In a mix you might not be able to tell plate from plugin - you will be able to tell plate from spring, at least with any clarity.

Quote:
Also, the man asked for hardware for a reason I expect.
Well I've been participating in his saga, and there's no reason he couldn't use a plug - he's been talking summing amps and so on, not fully OTB mixing. He even agreed as much earlier. And he keeps repeating he's on a budget. So it kind of makes sense.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
With all this talk of turning springs into faux-plates, I still think a decent plugin (or even cheap digital hardware) is going to sound more “plate like” than a spring.


I am after a specific characteristic (which I very often am), I would rather have a good plugin plate than the world's best hardware analog spring. The "plate-ness" is why I chose a plate for my mix in the first place.

Some springs are very smooth, very 'un-sproingy' or whatever you want to call it. They lack the cheapness or the "things I usually dislike" about a spring. That doesn't mean they sound very much "like a plate". Not to me at least. Plates and springs were created originally to mimic the sound of the instrument in a large real space. They failed. They don't really sound much like a real space - but they managed to achieve something interesting of their own. These artificial reverbs have their unique characteristics which have differing effects on the mix. They have become different tools, even if when they were invented, they may have been aiming at the same general idea.

To me, a spring is not a "cheap plate" - therefore, by the same token, a really high-end spring is not "almost a plate". A really sharp knife is not "almost a saw".

Some of my plate plugins do such a good job of giving me what I want from plate, that I have taken "a real plate" off my Lotto Jackpot List. That's right, I could win the lottery and not put a a real plate reverb on my shopping list.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #116
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Pale Pyramid's Avatar
I respect what everyone is saying. I know some of you are mixing projects day in and day out for other people As well as occasionally playing on them and or playing on your own projects. The OP seems to me to be a talented player also working in production. I hear this from others as well. I think for this type a plugin may eventually be what they end up with but there is something about playing alongside the actual hardware that informs them to the qualities that they as an individual are willing to accept.
Which is different then situations where you might add a Waves Plate emulation on and call it a day. Because the client won’t notice. Or will detect it but have no experience to draw from other then it’s reverb that they either like or subtly perceive. So either way, you get no feedback. No client is saying, that AKG algo is great. They don’t know what a BX20 is most likely. clients happy your happy. But for some, the analog reverbs or delays inform what passion or restraint may go into a take. And they detect enough missing in a plugin that that experience is uninspiring. Or maybe latency is a draw back, like a bad head phone mix it just brings out the insecurity/ annoyance when performing. Or post performance they detect the subtle differences between the hardware they have used and what they hear back from a plugin. They obsess about the tails not being quite right etc.
Even in the context of a mix.
Possibly they use the FX more liberally in their mixes as well. Accounting for genres or differing tastes.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
But there is a difference when something is real and when something is a plug.
but the dichotomy is not a real plate vs a plugin plate, because a real plate is out of his budget. The dichotomy we are debating is between a "real" spring, and a plugin plate.

Even though a spring may be 'analog', it does not really have the timing or envelope that was what drew you to a plate in the first place. It's analog-ness becomes irrelevant if it is the wrong tool for the job. A tape echo is "analog", but it is just an echo. It works great as an echo but not so great as a "room".

Quote:
Also, the man asked for hardware for a reason I expect.
I too, have been following the OP's "saga". From my reading of the saga, I think the "reason" is because he read about hardware on Gearsluz. His first post where he was thinking about putting a studio in his room was June 2019. He seems to be currently on a buying spree and the gear is only now just "arriving" at his place.

Perhaps he got his room all set up and running right away and in the last few months he has a ton of opportunities to directly compare hardware to the software himself.

It's very easy to read Gearslutz and come away "knowing" a whole bunch of stuff without actually knowing anything from personal experience. This place is one huge echo chamber. Pun intended. But given that it is clear from his posts that he has no firm idea of how reverb even gets applied in a mix, I hardly feel compelled to limit my replies to the requested parameters.

What's more important, the "analog-ness" or the "appropriateness" of the tool? For me, the sound at the end is more important than the "purity" of the methodology that got you there. This site is full of people who want to send the "analog or bust" message to the newbies.

"Empiricism" is the message that I want to send to the newbies.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Pyramid View Post
I respect what everyone is saying. I know some of you are mixing projects day in and day out for other people As well as occasionally playing on them and or playing on your own projects. The OP seems to me to be a talented player also working in production. I hear this from others as well. I think for this type a plugin may eventually be what they end up with but there is something about playing alongside the actual hardware that informs them to the qualities that they as an individual are willing to accept.
But he's not talking about playing through it with guitars. He's talking about mixing - as I said, I've followed quite a few of his threads now, I've got a pretty good idea of what's trying to be achieved!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Pyramid View Post
Which is different then situations where you might add a Waves Plate emulation on and call it a day. Because the client won’t notice. Or will detect it but have no experience to draw from other then it’s reverb that they either like or subtly perceive. So either way, you get no feedback. No client is saying, that AKG algo is great. They don’t know what a BX20 is most likely. clients happy your happy.
Why would you do that? I don't know about anyone else, but I choose verbs according to if they work or not - if they don't I don't "call it a day", any more than I put a mic up and if it's not right I don't leave it.

Giving a toss about what you're doing isn't limited to those working with "real" hardware

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Pyramid View Post
But for some, the analog reverbs or delays inform what passion or restraint may go into a take. And they detect enough missing in a plugin that that experience is uninspiring.
I would have thought singing through something that doesn't sound right (like a spring when you really want a plate) is less inspiring.

Quote:
Or maybe latency is a draw back, like a bad head phone mix it just brings out the insecurity/ annoyance when performing.
I don't mean to sound condescending, but we're talking reverb here - not direct sound. Latency (or more accurately, delay) is a part of a reverb! A couple of samples of added delay isn't going to make the blindest bit of difference.

Quote:
Or post performance they detect the subtle differences between the hardware they have used and what they hear back from a plugin. They obsess about the tails not being quite right etc.
Even in the context of a mix.
Possibly they use the FX more liberally in their mixes as well. Accounting for genres or differing tastes.
If it doesn't sound right, it isn't right.

However, as I've pointed out already, the tails are likely to "not be quite right" coming from a spring or DIY plate, if you actually wanted a real one.

It's not like anyone is arguing for a plugin over the real thing here. OP has already said the real thing isn't an option. The choices are between something which sounds more or less like the real thing, or something that doesn't.

Choosing the thing that doesn't because it's "real", even if it doesn't do the job you want, is putting cart before horse.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #119
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decocco's Avatar
 

If you want a plate, a plugin plate will beat an “analog” spring every time, no question. As others have said, the right tool is right, whether it be analog or digital. Analog fetishizing does not help one choose the right tool.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #120
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robert82's Avatar
The hardware thing is no longer about practicality, it's about purity. Or some notion of being "real".

Some would sooner mic up an aluminum pie plate than use a plugin. Whatever.
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