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Drum Miking - Why does it take ~8+ mics to capture what our TWO ears hear?
Old 5 days ago
  #601
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian M. Boykin View Post
Don’t our heads act as a Jecklin Disc? Why is this not done more? I’d forgotten all about the Jecklin Disc until it was brought up in this thread. Seems like the obvious way to mimic human hearing.
It's one way to mimic human hearing, but perhaps not as advanced as systems that also use pinnae, like the Neumann dummy head, or other types of binaural decoding from ambisonics that use custom HRTF scans to account for the shape of your ears, head, and even torso.
Old 5 days ago
  #602
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
I don't know what your point is and am not sure I follow your line of questioning but I have a proposal for you.

Post a sample of an unprocessed stereo mic recording that approximates the size, depth, impact and weight that you hear/feel with your two ears while sitting behind a kit.

Doesn't have to be your sample. I just want to hear one that approximates the kit as you remember, since you said you bash on kits from time to time.

This isn't a "trick" by the way. I'd just like to hear it. Thanks.
I think we know what his point is...
Old 5 days ago
  #603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry123 View Post
I think the difference here is that if I hit a snare in a room, my brain very quickly distinguishes the sound coming straight from the drum from the reverberation in the room. A mic can't do that. The ear and brain do a great job of handling a wide range of dynamics. When I'm listening to play back, I'm not standing in front of a kit that creates 110 db sent in every direction, I'm in front of a speaker listening at 75-85db which is very focused in my direction.
Yeah but you're not separating dissemination from sensing though. You're still left with an ear to distinguish between direct sound and reflections regardless of how the sound is generated. And we only have one sound pressure wave at the point of the eardrum. I just don't see how that's different conceptually.

If you wanted to "process", or "funnel", pressure waves, then use some sort of binaural to emulate what ears hear. But if you do then that part of the equation is taken care of. It's not a problem for the mic as far as I can see to record that single wave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry123 View Post
Mics have a very limited and logarithmic dynamic range
I don't know what you mean by "logarithmic dynamic range", that doesn't really make sense to me. But anyway, I just quickly brought up the product page for the Earthworks M30 mic:

Frequency Response: 3Hz -30kHz ±1/-3dB
Max Acoustic Input: 140dB SPL

That should cover a drum kit I would think...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry123 View Post
and that is affected by the preamp, and again by a compressor whether it's inline during recording or used afterwards during mix down.
Well, what we end up doing isn't really what we're discussion though, right? We also end up compressing/limiting the crap out of a lot of stuff and then shoving it into a crappy lossy codec streamed over the ear to average earbuds.

By the way: I'm not saying we shouldn't compress - I think we "should" - I'm just saying that I've heard an absolutely fantastic surround recording more than once and it was very, very convincing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry123 View Post
Perhaps this whole system would operate differently if our monitors were simply omnidirectional output devices placed in the middle of a room or on a stage in front of us.
Atmos and Auro 3D (and others) are steps in the "right" direction as far as this is concerned. We simply need to convince the brain, not make it perfect.
Old 5 days ago
  #604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
By the way: I'm not saying we shouldn't compress - I think we "should" - I'm just saying that I've heard an absolutely fantastic surround recording more than once and it was very, very convincing.

I'm curious. How many transducers did the surround recording use?


Quote:
Atmos and Auro 3D (and others) are steps in the "right" direction as far as this is concerned. We simply need to convince the brain, not make it perfect.

I agree. Doesn't need to be perfect. I watched that EiganMic (sp?) demo vid someone linked earlier and it can "focus" on various aspects of the sound at any given time by selection. Very impressive - and similar to how our brain processes sounds.
Old 5 days ago
  #605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
I'm curious. How many transducers did the surround recording use?
Can't remember. It was years ago.
Old 5 days ago
  #606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
I don't know what your point is and am not sure I follow your line of questioning but I have a proposal for you.

Post a sample of an unprocessed stereo mic recording that approximates the size, depth, impact and weight that you hear/feel with your two ears while sitting behind a kit.

Doesn't have to be your sample. I just want to hear one that approximates the kit as you remember, since you said you bash on kits from time to time.

This isn't a "trick" by the way. I'd just like to hear it. Thanks.
I guess we’re not on the same wavelength in this discussion so I’ll let it go.

I don’t have any recordings of me playing drums, I’m not a drummer at all, and to record it like I would want to would require an effort on my part and a really acoustically correct space. Plus you would also have to listen to the recording through a serious PA rig that was setup in a certain way to really get it.

I’m currently on tour and can’t/don’t want to go through that now or anytime soon...so I guess we’ll just leave things here....it’s just a little difficult discussing a situation when I don’t understand the dilemma.

I’m thinking that this is really about what we like vs what we hear more than anything else.
Old 5 days ago
  #607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post

I’m thinking that this is really about what we like vs what we hear more than anything else.

It really isn't if you read my posts carefully, particularly the first page. Forget about what we/you like for a second. Forget about setting up PA systems for a moment and just think about the sound you heard and feeling you got when you first sat behind a kit.

My feeling is that an unprocessed stereo mic recording does not get you as close to the depth, size, weight and stereo/surround image that our TWO ears hear as opposed to adding additional mics, whether that be 1 additional mic or two additional mics or ten!

All recordings I have ever heard seem to bear that out and I just wondered why. That make sense? But you are right. We should stop going circular...


Quote:
it’s just a little difficult discussing a situation when I don’t understand the dilemma

There is no "dilemma" and certainly no secret recipe for getting drum sounds one "likes" It's actually super easy. Start with a really good drummer recording great material in a good room. Place a few mics, check phase and done. Send it to your favorite mixer for bonus points. :0)
Old 5 days ago
  #608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
My feeling is that an unprocessed stereo mic recording does not get you as close to the depth, size, weight and stereo/surround image that our TWO ears hear as opposed to adding additional mics, whether that be 1 additional mic or two additional mics or ten!
My point is that if the stereo recording is made a certain way and listened to in context, it will/should sound really close to what we hear. Is this a situation that drummers have been struggling with all this time?

Quote:
All recordings I have ever heard seem to bear that
There is no "dilemma" and certainly no secret recipe for getting drum sounds one "likes" It's actually super easy. Start with a really good drummer recording great material in a good room. Place a few mics, check phase and done. Send it to your favorite mixer for bonus points. :0)
What does “a really good drummer” and “great material” have to do with making an accurate recording? This is the type of detail that confuses the me....on the one side you’re talking about a recording that sounds close what you hear when playing but this is the recipe for a pleasing recording. The two are not mutually exclusive...not to me anyway, but yeah.
Old 5 days ago
  #609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
I think we know what his point is...
Well maybe you could explain it, because I don’t seem to be doing a good job of that...who are the “we” you speak for by the way...
Old 5 days ago
  #610
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Aww.. It will sound good with 8 mics.

Old 4 days ago
  #611
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
What does “a really good drummer” and “great material” have to do with making an accurate recording? This is the type of detail that confuses the me....on the one side you’re talking about a recording that sounds close what you hear when playing but this is the recipe for a pleasing recording. The two are not mutually exclusive...not to me anyway, but yeah.

I don’t know man. I said this before and I’ll repeat. For some reason we keep talking past each other in recent threads.

I’m not even sure you are reading my posts. Seems like your just skimming and hitting reply based on some preconceived notions you may have?

I NEVER used the word “accurate” in any of my posts. I’m not trying to get an accurate capture just approximate the “size”, “weight”, “depth” “spaciousness” and “feel” I hear with my TWO ears. That perspective changes based on where one is in the room...in this case I’m sitting on the kit. Don’t know how many times I’ve stated this.

Then You pop in on joeq’s trail saying this thread seems to be more about getting recordings one “likes” to which I responded that it’s easy to get a recording you “like”. That just requires a good drummer and good material. Getting a recording I “like” can be done easily with one mic or three if I so choose as long as the drummer performs the way I “like”.

For example, I “like” all the mixes by Daptones and they certainly don’t sound anything like it does when sitting behind the kit. So there is no “dilemma” there. Seen?

Anyway I’ll stop quoting you now because this internet communication thing doesn’t seem to be working for you and I. Have a good tour man.

Last edited by Funny Cat; 4 days ago at 05:01 PM..
Old 4 days ago
  #612
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12ax7's Avatar
 

There is no number of microphones that will ever capture what your ears hear.

...And even if they did, you'd still have to use a few other devices to get the resulting captured sound to your ears.

Its all beside the point anyway:

We humans do NOT typically use audio/digital technology to "capture" and/or "reproduce" the sounds we hear.

Instead, we use it to "make it sound like a record".
.
Old 4 days ago
  #613
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
I NEVER used the word “accurate” in any of my posts. I’m not trying to get an accurate capture just approximate the “size”, “weight”, “depth” “spaciousness” and “feel” I hear with my TWO ears. That perspective changes based on where one is in the room...in this case I’m sitting on the kit. Don’t know how many times I’ve stated this.
Well, to be fair you didn't state that in the OP. In the OP you basically just asked the question in the thread title + said you yourself couldn't get the desired results with only two mics. So, for anyone reading the OP and skipping a post or two it's easy to not understand you're talking about sitting "on the kit".

Position is obviously key.
Old 4 days ago
  #614
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Well, to be fair you didn't state that in the OP. In the OP you basically just asked the question in the thread title + said you yourself couldn't get the desired results with only two mics. So, for anyone reading the OP and skipping a post or two it's easy to not understand you're talking about sitting "on the kit".

Position is obviously key.

It’s was made crystal clear in very the first page and several more times in the following 2-3 pages. The opening post obviously has to be an abridged version of the question. In any event the question is still pretty clear, even if I wasn’t sitting behind the kit. The result would be the same for the most part.




[Edit] see post #8 on pg.1
Old 4 days ago
  #615
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Well maybe you could explain it, because I don’t seem to be doing a good job of that...who are the “we” you speak for by the way...
YOu seem to be part of a small group of peopl who gets off on coming here and being contrarian. You challenge people's thoughts and idea in MULTIPLE replies until they get sick of trying to explain a concept that you ask them to clarify 3-5 times. You challenge them, often by twisting their words, seemingly to show your superiority. You basically brow beat people and try to show how much more you know in the process.

The we I refer to is the rest of us on the board that are hear for civil and enlightening discourse on matters of recording, mixing and producing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Well, to be fair you didn't state that in the OP. In the OP you basically just asked the question in the thread title + said you yourself couldn't get the desired results with only two mics. So, for anyone reading the OP and skipping a post or two it's easy to not understand you're talking about sitting "on the kit".

Position is obviously key.
When asked to clarify, he has done so in MULTIPLE posts. You can't blame Funny Cat for others lack of reading or comprehension.
Old 4 days ago
  #616
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
It’s was made crystal clear in very the first page and several more times in the following 2-3 pages. The opening post obviously has to be an abridged version of the question. In any event the question is still pretty clear, even if I wasn’t sitting behind the kit. The result would be the same for the most part.
It's crucial information because being behind the kit versus 10-15 feet in front of it are vastly different scenarios. They're not even close to being the same in my opinion. So that should have gone in the OP.

But whatever. I don't really see the point of this thread to be honest. You have your experience of this and I'm not really sure what you're looking for in terms of a discussion. Is it the practical application of recording, mixing, mastering then enjoying music? Doesn't seem like it. I just don't know what you're after...
Old 4 days ago
  #617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
When asked to clarify, he has done so in MULTIPLE posts. You can't blame Funny Cat for others lack of reading or comprehension.
I didn't blame him for it at all. I just said that since he didn't put it in the OP and since people tend to not read all posts some people inevitably took the thread title question and the OP as being "it", as in what is "it" that you're looking to get an answer to.

No blame.
Old 4 days ago
  #618
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
It's crucial information because being behind the kit versus 10-15 feet in front of it are vastly different scenarios. They're not even close to being the same in my opinion. So that should have gone in the OP.

But whatever. I don't really see the point of this thread to be honest. You have your experience of this and I'm not really sure what you're looking for in terms of a discussion. Is it the practical application of recording, mixing, mastering then enjoying music? Doesn't seem like it. I just don't know what you're after...


There were several posters that gave thoughtful answers in the first few pages. Answers like the Staepidus Reflex, how the brain processes and filters sound, how sound vibrates through the body to inform our hearing, how the ears are the most complex transducers ever created etc.

Even if you stood 5ft in front of the kit, or just to the side of the kit, or 20ft away from the kit and you miked it with ONLY a stereo pair it would sound very different than what your two ears are hearing because the human ears are processing the sound, interpreting room dimensions and boundaries, compressing the loudest parts, focusing on certain elements at any given time (basically pre-mixing the sound).

So it really isn’t information that “had” to be in the Thread title. I'm really not sure why some folks get it and others don’t? The problem in many of the recent replies is some folks are just responding without thinking about the question, basically assuming I’m “after” something which I’m not. I said this in page one - I can approximate the sound and feel my TWO ears hear it just takes more than a stereo pair!

I simply wanted to explore how and why the human ears...only TWO of them can capture ALL this info while two mics cannot. I stated in the OP that I already had a decent handle on the answer but I wanted more info. As a result of this thread I read up some more, particularly on Staepidus Reflex and I found it very enlightening as it relates to my question.
Old 4 days ago
  #619
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post


When asked to clarify, he has done so in MULTIPLE posts. You can't blame Funny Cat for others lack of reading or comprehension.

BINGO!!!!



As to the response to Sam, it wouldn’t even bother me if he contributed something useful every once in a while, like backing up or explaining any rebuttal he has but he doesn’t. He pops in just to say “uh no you’re wrong and I don’t have time to engage you any deeper”. It’s really strange because I’ve heard his work and he’s a really good engineer but the condescending nature of his communication is off putting and it’s like that in EVERY single thread he touches! Ouch!
Old 4 days ago
  #620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
YOu seem to be part of a small group of peopl who gets off on coming here and being contrarian. You challenge people's thoughts and idea in MULTIPLE replies until they get sick of trying to explain a concept that you ask them to clarify 3-5 times. You challenge them, often by twisting their words, seemingly to show your superiority. You basically brow beat people and try to show how much more you know in the process.

The we I refer to is the rest of us on the board that are hear for civil and enlightening discourse on matters of recording, mixing and producing.

When asked to clarify, he has done so in MULTIPLE posts. You can't blame Funny Cat for others lack of reading or comprehension.
You actually disrupt the thread to post this garbage....?
Nothing like posters with a moderator complex who believe that everyone should agree with them Or be called names. You took the time and made the effort to tell me how bad I am while making personal insults to boot. It should be noted that You are the only one who has been uncivil thus far. Get off the horse before you fall...riding high is a dangerous sport.
Old 4 days ago
  #621
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
BINGO!!!!



As to the response to Sam, it wouldn’t even bother me if he contributed something useful every once in a while, like backing up or explaining any rebuttal he has but he doesn’t. He pops in just to say “uh no you’re wrong and I don’t have time to engage you any deeper”. It’s really strange because I’ve heard his work and he’s a really good engineer but the condescending nature of his communication is off putting and it’s like that in EVERY single thread he touches! Ouch!
Wow dude, Where did the info about the Jecklin disk and recording through a big PA or Aurotones come from...who posted sound samples with explanations about how the recordings were made etc...? When did I say you were wrong about anything, I’ve been asking you to clarify and explain some of your posts, but more importantly, since when am I obliged to agree with you....?
Old 4 days ago
  #622
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Lance Lawson's Avatar
 

Why? Because of the expanded track counts possible today. Just throw up a bunch of mics and mix it all down when mixing. I was in studio once where a famous drummer had a gigantic drum kit fitted with an even bigger mic kit. My engineer remarked as he broke the thing down for our session that he thought it was overkill to the point of silly.
Old 4 days ago
  #623
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
BINGO!!!!



As to the response to Sam, it wouldn’t even bother me if he contributed something useful every once in a while, like backing up or explaining any rebuttal he has but he doesn’t. He pops in just to say “uh no you’re wrong and I don’t have time to engage you any deeper”. It’s really strange because I’ve heard his work and he’s a really good engineer but the condescending nature of his communication is off putting and it’s like that in EVERY single thread he touches! Ouch!
Yep. And the small handfull who do it act pretty bent out of shape when its brought up.

Case in point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
You actually disrupt the thread to post this garbage....?
Nothing like posters with a moderator complex who believe that everyone should agree with them Or be called names. You took the time and made the effort to tell me how bad I am while making personal insults to boot. It should be noted that You are the only one who has been uncivil thus far. Get off the horse before you fall...riding high is a dangerous sport.
I'm not trying to be a moderator. I'm not trying to dissuade you from posting, or asking you to edit or remove posts. I called you out as being combative and you answered in a combative way. If you posted things in a helpful or thought provoking way, I'd say that. I don't read posts that way. And, frankly, I don't think I'm alone in that assessment. You can say you're not a sht stirrer, but you are standing in front of a a cauldron with a big wooden paddle from my point of view.
Old 4 days ago
  #624
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
There were several posters that gave thoughtful answers in the first few pages. Answers like the Staepidus Reflex, how the brain processes and filters sound, how sound vibrates through the body to inform our hearing, how the ears are the most complex transducers ever created etc.
Ok, but just stay with me for a minute - I think some of us are confused as to what the point of the question or thread is because we seem to be drifting to and from different issues yet they are bundled up as if they're contributing to the same answer, when they're separate issues. We are after all dealing with technology and physics.

So for example, above you now talk about how our ears are really complex and how the brain filters sound, but that's really irrelevant exactly because of what I said earlier. The ear drum gets one signal, one sound wave, not a bunch of different ones. It doesn't matter if you have million reflections from walls and ceilings; it all just converges and merges at your ear drum. So given a sufficiently good microphone and a sufficiently well modeled ear canal, cranium and torso we should definitely be able to capture what our ears hear.

Additionally, when your talking about things like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
the human ears are processing the sound, interpreting room dimensions and boundaries, compressing the loudest parts, focusing on certain elements at any given time (basically pre-mixing the sound).
You're missing the point I made earlier. IF there's a point to ears compressing parts of the signal that's still going to be true on playback given a sufficiently loud playback level. It's a non-issue as far as the earlier question is concerned.

What our ears capture is one thing and how they process sound is another. We can capture what ears capture, reproduce it, and the ears can then process just like before. Yet this is brought up repeatedly and I can't see why at this point.

And on the topic of capture and reproduction in the first part you also mix in the issue of other senses involved. If we feel the air move on our skin that is a completely separate issue from whether or not two mics (or 8) are enough to capture what the ears hear. Ears are one thing, skin another. So sound vibrating through the body - not ears - is separate and related to reproduction, not capture.
Old 4 days ago
  #625
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monkeyxx's Avatar
wow this thread got real fun real fast haha
Old 4 days ago
  #626
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Wow dude, Where did the info about the Jecklin disk and recording through a big PA or Aurotones come from...who posted sound samples with explanations about how the recordings were made etc...? When did I say you were wrong about anything, I’ve been asking you to clarify and explain some of your posts, but more importantly, since when am I obliged to agree with you....?

I asked a couple of times to forget about the PA. Yes I do that from time to time e.g. pump a finished drum mix through speakers and reamp. It works. We discussed this in the thread earlier on.

BUT it’s completely missing the essence of the question! It’s...our TWO ears vs TWO mics. Why do the mics hear so differently? Why do I need to pump music through a P.A. To hear the weight, punch etc. like my ears do? My pinnae are not connected to a bryston! Why is amplification even necessary?

Although a bit late, The Jecklin disk is a good contribution. I’ll give you that and will certainly try it although I’m a bit skeptical. I suspect lots of folks would be using it if it was that amazing?

Seriously though go back and reread your posts. They are quite patronizing in tone. I’ve tried my best to explain the original OP in so many different ways I’m getting numb.
Old 4 days ago
  #627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
wow this thread got real fun real fast haha
I like the guys whose posts read like they've got everyone else on Ignore.
Old 4 days ago
  #628
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Ok, but just stay with me for a minute - I think some of us are confused as to what the point of the question or thread is because we seem to be drifting to and from different issues yet they are bundled up as if they're contributing to the same answer, when they're separate issues. We are after all dealing with technology and physics.

So for example, above you now talk about how our ears are really complex and how the brain filters sound, but that's really irrelevant exactly because of what I said earlier. The ear drum gets one signal, one sound wave, not a bunch of different ones. It doesn't matter if you have million reflections from walls and ceilings; it all just converges and merges at your ear drum. So given a sufficiently good microphone and a sufficiently well modeled ear canal, cranium and torso we should definitely be able to capture what our ears hear.

Additionally, when your talking about things like this:



You're missing the point I made earlier. IF there's a point to ears compressing parts of the signal that's still going to be true on playback given a sufficiently loud playback level. It's a non-issue as far as the earlier question is concerned.

What our ears capture is one thing and how they process sound is another. We can capture what ears capture, reproduce it, and the ears can then process just like before. Yet this is brought up repeatedly and I can't see why at this point.

And on the topic of capture and reproduction in the first part you also mix in the issue of other senses involved. If we feel the air move on our skin that is a completely separate issue from whether or not two mics (or 8) are enough to capture what the ears hear. Ears are one thing, skin another. So sound vibrating through the body - not ears - is separate and related to reproduction, not capture.


All of the above has been discussed. The difference is, we don’t monitor drum recordings at the whopping volumes we play them and mics can’t focus on several sources at one time. They need to be pointed at them. This was mentioned earlier.

Also, if you play the kit Super soft, I mean like barely tapping the skins, the drums tone actually gets fatter and I can hear all the details with my two ears.

Why doesn’t it sound fatter when we turn down the speakers volume past a certain level on playback? Why does the oomph disappear? Yet this does not happen to our ears when playing a kit! You don’t find that the least bit curious?
Old 4 days ago
  #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
All of the above has been discussed. The difference is, we don’t monitor drum recordings at the whopping volumes we play them and mics can’t focus on several sources at one time. They need to be pointed at them. This was mentioned earlier.

Also, if you play the kit Super soft, I mean like barely tapping the skins, the drums tone actually gets fatter and I can hear all the details with my two ears.

Why doesn’t it sound fatter when we turn down the speakers volume past a certain level on playback? Why does the oomph disappear? Yet this does not happen to our ears when playing a kit! You don’t find that the least bit curious?
I feel that your original question was an interesting thought experiment and there have been a lot of great ideas tossed about but i think it's pretty much done
Old 4 days ago
  #630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 64gtoboy View Post
I feel that your original question was an interesting thought experiment and there have been a lot of great ideas tossed about but i think it's pretty much done

I agree. Most of the thought provoking replies came from the first few pages. At this point it feels as if some posts are trying to convince me it’s a stupid question or that I’m deceiving myself and I’m just taking the bait, lol.
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