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Moved to a larger room, too much bass build up
Old 8th October 2019
  #1
Moved to a larger room, too much bass build up

I’m happy to report that I finally have a nice size room for my set up.
But after coming from a small 9X9 And I’m now in a 13X13 room, I can hear a lot of bass build up.
I have 12 bass traps made from Owens Corning 702 2x4 panels 6 inches thick.
I set them up temporarily just to sit in the mix position and it sounds terrible, I even recorded a quick drum track and it sounds awful, bass building up, no clarity.
As excited as I am about the larger space I’m now faced with trying to use the room eq wizard and can’t even get it to work properly.
Maybe I need a few days off.
Old 8th October 2019
  #2
Gear Nut
 

I'm only an amateur with room acoustics, but what I did in a room not much bigger was to place 600mm wide x 100mm deep panels of 48kg m3 fiberglass across 3 of the 4 vertical corners in the room. I couldn't do the 4th because of the doorway. I did the same across all of the wall/ceiling corners.

It helped a LOT.

-John
Old 8th October 2019
  #3
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Caf View Post
I'm only an amateur with room acoustics, but what I did in a room not much bigger was to place 600mm wide x 100mm deep panels of 48kg m3 fiberglass across 3 of the 4 vertical corners in the room. I couldn't do the 4th because of the doorway. I did the same across all of the wall/ceiling corners.

It helped a LOT.

-John
That is how i had my last room, but the new room has a radiator in one corner, the door in another corner and a closet in the last corner,
as you can see in the pictures.
Im going to have to figure out how to set up the room eq wizard and start by testing and moving the traps around.
Attached Thumbnails
Moved to a larger room, too much bass build up-img_3814.jpg   Moved to a larger room, too much bass build up-img_3815.jpg   Moved to a larger room, too much bass build up-img_3816.jpg   Moved to a larger room, too much bass build up-img_3817.jpg  
Old 8th October 2019
  #4
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dc_r's Avatar
 

Were you recording an acoustic drum kit in the smaller room too? I have seen isolation booths for drums in big studios but this room looks a bit small for drums I think. Or maybe you should consider using dynamic mics instead of LDC? I have no idea what I am talking about here...

But I'd say you could treat the back wall better. I'd even transfer some panels from six walls to the back to cover that corner where you have foam and cover the door as well. I think in theory you would improve things by moving your desk and speakers to about the third of the length of the room.

You probably need time to adjust to the new setup but this is still a small room as far as music studios go.
Old 8th October 2019
  #5
Lives for gear
I would embrace the situation I was in and pretend it's the 70s and take the bottom heads off, tune those drums low, and slap a wallet on the snare. Then I'd get some office dividers (or build gobos) and surround the drums with them. Oh and thick carpet. Dry as a bone.
Old 8th October 2019
  #6
Gear Maniac
 
drsaamah's Avatar
I have a similarly small room and bass build up is all I worry about. Its an odd shape and I have great carpet so thankfully flutter echo and early reflections aren't a big deal. I've been studying a lot about acoustic treatment and trying to weed through the bull**** and the conclusion I have drawn at this point at least is that we need velocity/pressure based bass treatment as opposed to the broadband absorbers that you are using. It looks like the ones from GIK are pretty solid. The bass that builds up in small rooms (in mine, at least) is all that sub-100 hz stuff. Broadband absorbers won't do anything to help you there.
Old 8th October 2019
  #7
I made panels out of 702 as well. Most I boxed in with 1x5" pine panels so I could stand them on on the floor. You might want to tray placing a few around the side and front of kit. 2" thick would be fine since your not trying to stop the audio 100%, just slow down those early reflections, let the room wall panels catch the rest. I'd also suggest hanging 2 panels above the kit. And maybe a rug under the kit ( can't tell if there is one ). All that said, its with a grain of salt since I'm not a pro haha...
Old 8th October 2019
  #8
I made panels out of 702 as well. Most I boxed in with 1x5" pine panels so I could stand them on on the floor. You might want to tray placing a few around the side and front of kit. 2" thick would be fine since your not trying to stop the audio 100%, just slow down those early reflections, let the room wall panels catch the rest. I'd also suggest hanging 2 panels above the kit. And maybe a rug under the kit ( can't tell if there is one ). All that said, its with a grain of salt since I'm not a pro haha...
Old 8th October 2019
  #9
I had a similar thing with my new room - around 9 x 11 feet. Same problem with bass plus slap reverb. So far I've got a broadband panel fitted as a cloud above my listening position plus 2 corner tri-traps - all from GIK at the listening end which combined made a spectacular difference to the room - I can almost do without other treatment although just by moving from listening position a foot or 2 is a huge difference in boomy low end so now working on the rear wall. Similar to your situation I have 2 difficult corners at the rear wall - 1 has the door but also the window is on the rear wall which either side has not enough space for proper use of tri-traps.

I'm currently in discussion with GIK about what the best options are and I think the narrow GIK monster bass traps either side of the window then the full size monster bass trap on the wall to the left to fill out that corner and a monster trap on the door to fill out the door corner. I'll wait to see how this works out and if not enough then I might need to look at some additions but according to GIK help those would be the best practice for such a room. I found that doing it in stages is helping me understand how each panel affects the room so maybe remove your panels and fit one at a time to see how each affects your room.

On the right of your front wall above the radiator you could perhaps have the corner filled as with the left corner instead of the flat panel. At your rear wall where you have the foam corner trap I would loose that and replace with a floor to ceiling corner as you've done with the left front of your room to see if that helps - I've read a lot of times that those foam corners aren't as good as proper bass traps and from friends studio rooms fitted with those in the past that were replaced with GIK monster traps I would agree. A common thing I read/heard is always that fill out all corners as much as possible. You may get better use of your panels filling out corners rather than in the center of the walls and maybe replace those with broadband diffusing panels.

As you have a number of panels already you could try a few configurations to see which helps the most. Looks like you have a cupboard in the left rear wall so maybe a movable conrer-trap to maintain access to the cupboard could work for you.

Hope that's of some use - the acoustic treatment world is difficult to work out and doing only half of my room so far has been a lot of reading.
Old 8th October 2019
  #10
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Space1999's Avatar
 

Really the amount of absorbers you have are overkill. You didn’t state if these traps were just cloth wrapped 702s or if you had a moving membrane on the front of them.

If I were you I would start over. If you just wrapped 702 in fabric you don’t have a bass trap you have a high frequency soak. You have to have a moving membrane to absorb the energy of the bass waves.

Not to be critical but the whole thing looks a bit “thrown together”. Why would you put bass traps so high on the wall? Why didn’t you take the corners out of the room.

Here is an easy way to get what you want, if you are willing to do a little work. Build a pine box with the 702 pasted to the back and then an air space and then tack cut sheets of luan to the facing. Make four of those and stand them in the corners. Make a cloud above the listening position and on the back wall put one more bass trap/diffuser. To make the combo trap/diffuser, take the same pine box and the same 902 and instead of Luan use different width slats over your fabric on the face of the trap. Make a couple of diffusers for the side walls, you can use just about anything, guitars, bicycles, whatever you have on hand.

Try that, if you like and I think you will enjoy the results. I hoped I helped.

Pat
Old 8th October 2019
  #11
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vernier's Avatar
Just match gear size and volume to fit the room, no matter how small.
Old 8th October 2019
  #12
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by vernier View Post
Just match gear size and volume to fit the room, no matter how small.
Old 8th October 2019
  #13
I have a lot of testing to do, this is not fun at all.
Im sure i could use a large area rug as well.
It took me a few months to get my small room to sound good.
Yes these are two pieces of 702's wrapped in fabric, they worked great in my smaller room and I'm sure they will work just as good in this room once i get the positioning correct.
Thank you for all the replies
Old 8th October 2019
  #14
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

13 feet is right around 88 Hz. I can see how that could be boomy.
Old 9th October 2019
  #15
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Space1999's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Reese View Post
I have a lot of testing to do, this is not fun at all.
Im sure i could use a large area rug as well.
It took me a few months to get my small room to sound good.
Yes these are two pieces of 702's wrapped in fabric, they worked great in my smaller room and I'm sure they will work just as good in this room once i get the positioning correct.
Thank you for all the replies
I just wanted to reiterate that if you have 702’s wrapped in fabric, that will most definitely do absolutely nothing, nada, zero for taming bass waves.

Bass waves are long and are propelled by a good deal of energy. That bass energy has to hit a moving diaphragm, then a sealed air space and finally your 702 to be stopped.

The good thing is, if you make the bass trap big enough, you don’t really need to tune them to any certain frequency, they are wide band traps.

All your current setup resembles is stapling a bunch of pillows to the wall.
If you track in that room you will get a very dull and lifeless sound with standing waves to boot.

You don’t have to take my word for it, by all means carry on. But you might want to know I have made around 50 of those bass traps for different studios and even a night club.

Yeah, its not instant gratification and you are going to have to work to produce the 4 broad band bass traps that you need.

Instead of wasting my time, I will let you make the call. If you decide you want to build some of the traps I am talking about, let me know and I will tell you how to build them.

If you want to throw a pillow party, then have at it.

Pat
Old 9th October 2019
  #16
Lives for gear
 

What the heck is 702?
Anywho... Might find this one interesting.
http://www.hunecke.de/en/calculators...igenmodes.html

another one.. re the 702 question. Thanks
https://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm
Old 9th October 2019
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Space1999 View Post
I just wanted to reiterate that if you have 702’s wrapped in fabric, that will most definitely do absolutely nothing, nada, zero for taming bass waves.

Bass waves are long and are propelled by a good deal of energy. That bass energy has to hit a moving diaphragm, then a sealed air space and finally your 702 to be stopped.

The good thing is, if you make the bass trap big enough, you don’t really need to tune them to any certain frequency, they are wide band traps.

All your current setup resembles is stapling a bunch of pillows to the wall.
If you track in that room you will get a very dull and lifeless sound with standing waves to boot.

You don’t have to take my word for it, by all means carry on. But you might want to know I have made around 50 of those bass traps for different studios and even a night club.

Yeah, its not instant gratification and you are going to have to work to produce the 4 broad band bass traps that you need.

Instead of wasting my time, I will let you make the call. If you decide you want to build some of the traps I am talking about, let me know and I will tell you how to build them.

If you want to throw a pillow party, then have at it.

Pat
I used these same traps for my other room, now the other room was smaller, but the sound wasn't at all lifeless, my recordings were very good.
Old 9th October 2019
  #18
Lives for gear
 
dc_r's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Space1999 View Post
I just wanted to reiterate that if you have 702’s wrapped in fabric, that will most definitely do absolutely nothing, nada, zero for taming bass waves.

Bass waves are long and are propelled by a good deal of energy. That bass energy has to hit a moving diaphragm, then a sealed air space and finally your 702 to be stopped.

The good thing is, if you make the bass trap big enough, you don’t really need to tune them to any certain frequency, they are wide band traps.

All your current setup resembles is stapling a bunch of pillows to the wall.
If you track in that room you will get a very dull and lifeless sound with standing waves to boot.

You don’t have to take my word for it, by all means carry on. But you might want to know I have made around 50 of those bass traps for different studios and even a night club.

Yeah, its not instant gratification and you are going to have to work to produce the 4 broad band bass traps that you need.

Instead of wasting my time, I will let you make the call. If you decide you want to build some of the traps I am talking about, let me know and I will tell you how to build them.

If you want to throw a pillow party, then have at it.

Pat
I use these bass traps from GIK (with the membrane option):

https://gikacoustics.co.uk/product/g...ge-technology/

They are effective down to 80Hz but not for very deep bass frequencies. They work well in my small room (about 9x12ft).

Why are DIY traps made with 702 different?
Old 9th October 2019
  #19
Gik has a DIY section and these recommend 702’s ?
So why wouldn’t they work ?
Old 9th October 2019
  #20
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Space1999's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Reese View Post
Gik has a DIY section and these recommend 702’s ?
So why wouldn’t they work ?
As I understood it you were just taking the 702s (hard pressed insulation squares) and just wrapping them with fabric.

The traps with a moving membrane actually dissipate the energy of the bass wave by causing the bass waves to move the membrane, then travel through an air pocket and finally to your rigid insulation board.

As well if you make these type traps around the 4x8 ft dimensions they become a broad band trap, meaning anything with a lot of energy is going to be tamed.

Over the years here is one thing I have learned.
1. I swear I will never ever renovate another studio
2. You want your live room and your control room lively

The broad band traps let you brighten up the room, like throw the area rug away please, and not suffer from any standing waves or runaway nodes.

A big misconception about treating a room is placing absorption all around the place. All that does is suck all the high end out of the room.

Why does your guitar sound great in your untreated bedroom but radically different in the studio?
Resonance. You see if you tack up a bunch of absorption then you don’t have any natural bounce back in your room.

Instruments like acoustic guitars, violins, drums all need some reflection to sound right and to not freak out the players. So you don’t want to deaden your room, you want to control it.

Broad band traps and slat style diffusers I spoke about earlier, can make all the difference. There is so much other practical tips to share. If you want to know more, like the old mirror trick, let me know.

Pat
Old 9th October 2019
  #21
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tymish's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
13 feet is right around 88 Hz. I can see how that could be boomy.
Yeah, 5 room modes between 70 - 90Hz.
Old 9th October 2019
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Space1999 View Post
As I understood it you were just taking the 702s (hard pressed insulation squares) and just wrapping them with fabric.

The traps with a moving membrane actually dissipate the energy of the bass wave by causing the bass waves to move the membrane, then travel through an air pocket and finally to your rigid insulation board.

As well if you make these type traps around the 4x8 ft dimensions they become a broad band trap, meaning anything with a lot of energy is going to be tamed.

Over the years here is one thing I have learned.
1. I swear I will never ever renovate another studio
2. You want your live room and your control room lively

The broad band traps let you brighten up the room, like throw the area rug away please, and not suffer from any standing waves or runaway nodes.

A big misconception about treating a room is placing absorption all around the place. All that does is suck all the high end out of the room.

Why does your guitar sound great in your untreated bedroom but radically different in the studio?
Resonance. You see if you tack up a bunch of absorption then you don’t have any natural bounce back in your room.

Instruments like acoustic guitars, violins, drums all need some reflection to sound right and to not freak out the players. So you don’t want to deaden your room, you want to control it.

Broad band traps and slat style diffusers I spoke about earlier, can make all the difference. There is so much other practical tips to share. If you want to know more, like the old mirror trick, let me know.

Pat
So I am guessing that these traps worked in my smaller room because the room was smaller ?
I made great recordings there.
Old 9th October 2019
  #23
A quick test with minimal eq
Attached Files

drum test.mp3 (2.57 MB, 1623 views)

Old 9th October 2019
  #24
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Reese View Post
A quick test with minimal eq
I was about to say "Yeah, I hear what you're hearing." but in actuality I hear half the problem that you're hearing, because I'm not playing it back in that same room.

Following this with much interest because I have a client for whom I do live-streaming mixing. That space has very similar issues, and it's really tough to work in there. Lots of guesswork.
Old 9th October 2019
  #25
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Sigma's Avatar
umm why do you keep building in SQUARE rooms..not good
Old 9th October 2019
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
umm why do you keep building in SQUARE rooms..not good
I dont understand your question ?
we moved into a new apartment, and this isn't a square room, there is a closet that sticks out, look at the first pictures
Old 9th October 2019
  #27
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
umm why do you keep building in SQUARE rooms..not good
You use what you've got. And it's hard to come to terms with shrinking the available space to make it work. Especially when a drum set has to fit in there.

I made a workable temp mixing space out of a square office about that size, but it meant reducing the usable space by a lot. And it involved mega-trapping a corner, blocking off a couple windows, and putting the mix position facing the mega-trap. No room for drums, for sure. And had there been a spouse involved, it never would have gotten approval.
Old 9th October 2019
  #28
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tymish's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Reese View Post
I dont understand your question ?
we moved into a new apartment, and this isn't a square room, there is a closet that sticks out, look at the first pictures
For acoustic purposes the room is square, 13 x 13 as you posted. The closet has almost no effect on room modes. Having two dimensions the same is the second to worst acoustic scenario to a complete cube with all 3 dimensions the same. That said you're going to have to live with a lot of it. There's only so much treatment you can fit in that room and it still be useful. One thing you want to and can do is something about floor to ceiling reflections. A rug might cut down a hair of high frequencies but if you can get some corner trapping in the ceiling corners and some of that 6 inch stuff above the drums and mix area it would help. But what others have said is valid, trying to control anything under about 120 Hz takes more than just 702 panels. In fact you could end up trapping all the low mids - highs and leaving a dull thuddy low end sounding room if you use only those.

The other option is trigger drum kits or e-drums. Yeah not as fun to play or as cool but in that room you might be better off getting decent recordings of drum samples played by you. They're pretty darn good these days.
Old 9th October 2019
  #29
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Sigma's Avatar
lol word up..my wife has to go thru the studio to get to the bedroom and she's like..i 'm afraid to touch anything..im like GOOD!!! hahahah

my room is approx 13.5 x 11.5 and then the booth
Old 9th October 2019
  #30
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Reese View Post
I dont understand your question ?
we moved into a new apartment, and this isn't a square room, there is a closet that sticks out, look at the first pictures
ohh you said from 9x9 to 13x13
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