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Moved to a larger room, too much bass build up
Old 9th October 2019
  #31
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Sigma's Avatar
i posted this a FEW times now

buy 2 1 inch thick pieces of 8x4 plywood..glue and screw back to back..put rigid fiberglass 2 inches thick on either side ...suspend DECOUPLED from ceiling ANYWHERE in the space..your bass problem will be gone
Old 9th October 2019
  #32
I am going to get more traps at some point along with a rug, if I. An get this room more dead than I can work in here.
It’s gonna take time like anything, but this is very frustrating after spending months on my old 9x9 room, so I’m sure this will take as long or longer.
Old 9th October 2019
  #33
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Sigma's Avatar
i didn't notice to you have an absorber over the mixer position?..it's a good idea to have one..not for bass issues for slapback
Old 9th October 2019
  #34
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
i posted this a FEW times now

buy 2 1 inch thick pieces of 8x4 plywood..glue and screw back to back..put rigid fiberglass 2 inches thick on either side ...suspend DECOUPLED from ceiling ANYWHERE in the space..your bass problem will be gone
Does the plywood have to be that hefty?
Old 9th October 2019
  #35
I am going to start using the room eq wizard for testing and start moving things around until it gets a little better hopefully.
Then I have to kind of guess what else to get for the room, each room is different so that makes it a lot harder.
I just want to record already lol
Old 9th October 2019
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
i didn't notice to you have an absorber over the mixer position?..it's a good idea to have one..not for bass issues for slapback
That doesn’t always work,
I’m my last room, using the eq wizard, when I put a thick cloud above the mix position my readings got worse so I removed it.
Old 9th October 2019
  #37
In response to a couple questions about the 702's, it's an insulation from Owen Corning that is a cost effective solution. I've read quite a few studios use them with great success. They cost approx $12 - $15 for a 2'x4' panel, if you're the least bit handy you can easily and cheaply add some acoustic treatment to your space.

Wrapping them in fabric is mainly to keep in the fibers, but you want to use a breathable material, to avoid adding a reflective surface on it. I used burlap for mine.

Also, you do want to have an air gap behind them, not mounted flush on the wall. So, I used 3.75" wide pine wood, to leave me a decent 1.75" air behind it. This helps more with reducing reflections i believe.

I left all mine at 2" thick 702, but I think I'm going to pick up another 12 pack locally so I can build some 4" think ones for bass traps in the corners, and fill in the ceiling cavities of my basement studio...
Old 9th October 2019
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by szyam View Post
In response to a couple questions about the 702's, it's an insulation from Owen Corning that is a cost effective solution. I've read quite a few studios use them with great success. They cost approx $12 - $15 for a 2'x4' panel, if you're the least bit handy you can easily and cheaply add some acoustic treatment to your space.

Wrapping them in fabric is mainly to keep in the fibers, but you want to use a breathable material, to avoid adding a reflective surface on it. I used burlap for mine.

Also, you do want to have an air gap behind them, not mounted flush on the wall. So, I used 3.75" wide pine wood, to leave me a decent 1.75" air behind it. This helps more with reducing reflections i believe.

I left all mine at 2" thick 702, but I think I'm going to pick up another 12 pack locally so I can build some 4" think ones for bass traps in the corners, and fill in the ceiling cavities of my basement studio...
I have two 2 inch 702’s with a 2 inch air gap built into the frame and they are wrapped in a breathable fabric, so there is 4 inches of 702 and a 2 inch air gap in total.
They work well, I just need more of them
Old 9th October 2019
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Reese View Post
I am going to start using the room eq wizard for testing and start moving things around until it gets a little better hopefully.
Then I have to kind of guess what else to get for the room, each room is different so that makes it a lot harder.
I just want to record already lol
Seriously man, lose the reso heads on all your drums. Put the kit back on a thick rug. Put a pillow in the kick drum with a brick on it. Put a wallet on the snare. Build a fort around your drums with the 702 panels. Hang one from the ceiling above the kit.

Insta 70s dead drum era.
Old 9th October 2019
  #40
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Does the plywood have to be that hefty?
yes you need the mass
Old 10th October 2019
  #41
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
i posted this a FEW times now

buy 2 1 inch thick pieces of 8x4 plywood..glue and screw back to back..put rigid fiberglass 2 inches thick on either side ...suspend DECOUPLED from ceiling ANYWHERE in the space..your bass problem will be gone
any tips/methods for decoupled suspension techniques?
Old 10th October 2019
  #42
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Jeff Hayat's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Reese View Post
I dont understand your question ?
we moved into a new apartment, and this isn't a square room, there is a closet that sticks out, look at the first pictures
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
ohh you said from 9x9 to 13x13
Yeah, you did say in your op: I’m now in a 13X13 room.

Looking at the pictures, yes, the closet jutting out makes it "not a square room", but it's def square-ish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Reese View Post
A quick test with minimal eq
That doesn't sound bad. A little more EQ, and some properly applied verb, and you have a pretty decent recording. I def do not hear bass build up in that recording. Unless I missed it somewhere.... are you talking about the build up being on the monitoring end?

The drums do however, sound boxy. You can tell they were recorded in a small and square (or almost square) room. Carpeting (not w/w) and really close micing to take out as much of the room as possible will help some, but a room is a room....

How'd recordings in your 9x9 room come out?
Old 10th October 2019
  #43
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Hayat View Post
I def do not hear bass build up in that recording. Unless I missed it somewhere.... are you talking about the build up being on the monitoring end?
Yeah, he's hearing it more than we are because he's listening in that same room.
Old 10th October 2019
  #44
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Brian M. Boykin's Avatar
Sigma and Brent, you gave me advise in another thread and here’s how I applied it.

Thank you,

The cloud is next and then fine tune.
Attached Thumbnails
Moved to a larger room, too much bass build up-3974b9c6-b8ba-44e0-abcd-e36db5140f7b.jpg   Moved to a larger room, too much bass build up-e3e5363e-7518-402a-aab7-e15482506efe.jpg   Moved to a larger room, too much bass build up-052061e7-70ac-4e8c-ad55-b750e9d78c17.jpg  
Old 10th October 2019
  #45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Hayat View Post
Yeah, you did say in your op: I’m now in a 13X13 room.

Looking at the pictures, yes, the closet jutting out makes it "not a square room", but it's def square-ish.



That doesn't sound bad. A little more EQ, and some properly applied verb, and you have a pretty decent recording. I def do not hear bass build up in that recording. Unless I missed it somewhere.... are you talking about the build up being on the monitoring end?

The drums do however, sound boxy. You can tell they were recorded in a small and square (or almost square) room. Carpeting (not w/w) and really close micing to take out as much of the room as possible will help some, but a room is a room....

How'd recordings in your 9x9 room come out?
Yes a carpet under the kit will help and also a cloud above the kit.
Yes the bass build up is in the monitoring for sure.
I am totally into the 1970’s drum sound, I close mic everything, but the room needs help, I will dig up a drum recording in my old 9x9 and you will hear how tight it was without sounding like it was in a small room or boxy.
Old 10th October 2019
  #46
This is a drum sound that I love and am happy with-
3 Mic drum recording
Old 10th October 2019
  #47
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vernier's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Reese View Post
A quick test with minimal eq
That sounded good. Room seems fine to me.
Old 10th October 2019
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Yeah, he's hearing it more than we are because he's listening in that same room.
You are correct :-)
So even if I liked the sound of the drums, which I don’t, my monitoring is off ?
I’m hearing so much bass build up with the entire kit especially the kick drum
Old 10th October 2019
  #49
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Reese View Post
You are correct :-)
So even if I liked the sound of the drums, which I don’t, my monitoring is off ?
Of course. The room makes the drums boomy, and then it makes the recording of the boomy drums sound twice as boomy. That's just one problem with tracking and mixing in the same room. It'll also mask noises. If you have a noisy computer or fridge or AC when you track, you won't hear it on playback.
Old 10th October 2019
  #50
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Brian M. Boykin's Avatar
You can’t fix what you can’t hear correctly. 13x13 is not only square, but not really a large room. I’m a drummer, My first studio was smaller. I absolutely killed the room and used reverb for room sound. It was better but not ideal. Your drums will sound dry but focused.

If it were me, I’d put the monitors on one wall and the drums on the opposite wall. That way the wall behind the drums would also be the rear wall For the mix position. Build gobo’s as suggested earlier. Put them on casters. Now you can put them behind the drums as the rear wall. Rule of thumb for small rooms is to put the monitors as close to the front wall as possible. This helps drive SBIR into the higher frequencies which is easier to treat with thinner absorbers. 4” OC703 or equivalent is the thinnest suggested. Build an RFZ zone. A cloud is your friend both over the listening position and over the drums. You need to take the room out of the equation. It will be very dead.
Use Recorderman and close mic with cardioid or hypercardioid. Use ribbons as overheads. Forget about ever using a room mics. Learn how to use gates ITB to get rid of the bleed on the close mics. Master this size room and then when you graduate to a larger, rectangle room you’ll kick ass. Get into a really large room and you’ll rock it. Your on a journey.
Old 10th October 2019
  #51
I was wrong, the room size is 11 feet 11 inches wide, 13 feet 3 inches in length
Old 10th October 2019
  #52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian M. Boykin View Post
You can’t fix what you can’t hear correctly. 13x13 is not only square, but not really a large room. I’m a drummer, My first studio was smaller. I absolutely killed the room and used reverb for room sound. It was better but not ideal. Your drums will sound dry but focused.

If it were me, I’d put the monitors on one wall and the drums on the opposite wall. That way the wall behind the drums would also be the rear wall For the mix position. Build gobo’s as suggested earlier. Put them on casters. Now you can put them behind the drums as the rear wall. Rule of thumb for small rooms is to put the monitors as close to the front wall as possible. This helps drive SBIR into the higher frequencies which is easier to treat with thinner absorbers. 4” OC703 or equivalent is the thinnest suggested. Build an RFZ zone. A cloud is your friend both over the listening position and over the drums. You need to take the room out of the equation. It will be very dead.
Use Recorderman and close mic with cardioid or hypercardioid. Use ribbons as overheads. Forget about ever using a room mics. Learn how to use gates ITB to get rid of the bleed on the close mics. Master this size room and then when you graduate to a larger, rectangle room you’ll kick ass. Get into a really large room and you’ll rock it. Your on a journey.
Yes moving the drums was my next idea :-)
I can actually fit the kit in the space opposite the monitors perfectly.
I will move the drums and put the monitors close to the front wall.
Personally I like a dead sounding room, I’m used to it and know how to counter it while mixing.
Old 10th October 2019
  #53
I heard speakers near windows allows bass frequencies to pass through the window almost acting as absorbers ?
I use my Genelec’s as my mains so maybe I should swap positions with the ns10’s so the Genelec’s are really close to the window ?
Check the pic.
Attached Thumbnails
Moved to a larger room, too much bass build up-fc4d1ffc-2522-4f98-ae36-6d968f2a0465.jpg  
Old 10th October 2019
  #54
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Jeff Hayat's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Reese View Post
I was wrong, the room size is 11 feet 11 inches wide, 13 feet 3 inches in length
Still square-ish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Reese View Post
I heard speakers near windows allows bass frequencies to pass through the window almost acting as absorbers ?
Glass is not absorbent. It's reflective.
Old 10th October 2019
  #55
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Brian M. Boykin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Reese View Post
I heard speakers near windows allows bass frequencies to pass through the window almost acting as absorbers ?
I use my Genelec’s as my mains so maybe I should swap positions with the ns10’s so the Genelec’s are really close to the window ?
Check the pic.
I’ve never read that but I haven’t read everything. If possible, point the monitors down the long length of the room. Have the monitors positioned below Or above the half way mark to the ceiling. But never halfway. Listening position should never be halfway in the room except for left to right for proper stereo imaging. You’ll hear the 38% rule at some point but it’s not a rule, it’s a guideline and a place to start. Testing with REW is your friend. Mic/control rooms should be symmetrical. Live rooms should not.

Spend some time on the Acoustical forum, GIKS web sight, Real Traps website and there’s a couple others I forget that have loads of information to help you understand the why and the how if what your doing.

When someone like Sigma gives a technique, stop and take note. I’ve never heard of decoupling a room like that but now I know my next project to study. He does what I call a ”Mr Miagi.” Gives just enough info to get you interested but not enough that you don’t have to go find out the specifics yourself. Jim Williams does it on the regular also.

And remember, this isn’t your last room.
Old 10th October 2019
  #56
I read on gs that low freq’s pass through a window, rests will show if this is true or not :-)
Old 10th October 2019
  #57
Lives for gear
 
Brian M. Boykin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Reese View Post
I heard speakers near windows allows bass frequencies to pass through the window almost acting as absorbers ?
I use my Genelec’s as my mains so maybe I should swap positions with the ns10’s so the Genelec’s are really close to the window ?
Check the pic.
I’ve never read that but I haven’t read everything. If possible, point the monitors down the long length of the room. Have the monitors positioned below Or above the half way mark to the ceiling. But never halfway. Listening position should never be halfway in the room except for left to right for proper stereo imaging. You’ll hear the 38% rule at some point but it’s not a rule, it’s a guideline and a place to start. Testing with REW is your friend. Mic/control rooms should be symmetrical. Live rooms should not.

Spend some time on the Acoustical forum, GIKS web sight, Real Traps website and there’s a couple others I forget that have loads of information to help you understand the why and the how if what your doing.

When someone like Sigma gives a technique, stop and take note. I’ve never heard of decoupling a room like that but now I know my next project to study. He does what I call a ”Mr Miagi.” Gives just enough info to get you interested but not enough that you don’t have to go find out the specifics yourself. Jim Williams does it on the regular also.

And remember, this isn’t your last room.

Last edited by Brian M. Boykin; 10th October 2019 at 03:23 AM.. Reason: Duplicate
Old 10th October 2019
  #58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian M. Boykin View Post
I’ve never read that but I haven’t read everything. If possible, point the monitors down the long length of the room. Have the monitors positioned below Or above the half way mark to the ceiling. But never halfway. Listening position should never be halfway in the room except for left to right for proper stereo imaging. You’ll hear the 38% rule at some point but it’s not a rule, it’s a guideline and a place to start. Testing with REW is your friend. Mic/control rooms should be symmetrical. Live rooms should not.

Spend some time on the Acoustical forum, GIKS web sight, Real Traps website and there’s a couple others I forget that have loads of information to help you understand the why and the how if what your doing.

When someone like Sigma gives a technique, stop and take note. I’ve never heard of decoupling a room like that but now I know my next project to study. He does what I call a ”Mr Miagi.” Gives just enough info to get you interested but not enough that you don’t have to go find out the specifics yourself. Jim Williams does it on the regular also.

And remember, this isn’t your last room.
I appreciate all of the info being shared and I don’t fought anyone, but I need to start with what I have before building something else.
I’ve had great results in the past, it’s taken a while to get it there, but I am confident I will get it there with this room, I need to do REW tests and move things around until I get them the best I can, then from there I will build or add new products
Old 10th October 2019
  #59
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by roho View Post
any tips/methods for decoupled suspension techniques?
use molly bolts with polyurethane bushings ..wire and coupler with bushing to the trap
Old 10th October 2019
  #60
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Reese View Post
That doesn’t always work,
I’m my last room, using the eq wizard, when I put a thick cloud above the mix position my readings got worse so I removed it.
there is no RT 60 in a 13x13 room ..the treatment for such a sized space is pretty routine..i'd ditch the eq "wizard" and use your ears

A. get rid of high ring of slap echo [broadband absorbers]..B. control bass node as well as possible [bass absorber]...C. add diffusion as needed [for a room that size i would use plastic ceiling diffusers on the back wall]..that's it.

an old pic of my 13.5x11.5 room

Attached Thumbnails
Moved to a larger room, too much bass build up-798305_544164682268350_454657242_o.jpg  

Last edited by Sigma; 10th October 2019 at 08:36 AM..
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