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Burl ADC for tracking
Old 4 weeks ago
  #31
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh View Post
Two more questions :

1. Can you see the Burl I/O in the analog I/O window of the MH 3D software? Or do you have to monitor in the console? If the MADI came up on the I/O window would be super helpful.

2. Why clock to the LIO and not the Burl?

Thanks!
The B80 I/O comes up on the MIO console, just as if I added a second LIO-8. It’s pretty brilliant the way routing in the MIO console works.

I clock to the LIO-8 3D because it’s a newer clock. The B80 I got used, not sure what year it was made, but it did come with the 300 power supply. When I first got it I A/B’d printing a summer mix through my rig clocking with the MH and then with the Burl. Could t hear a difference in that instance, so just went back to clocking from the MH and I’m happy with it.

I was concerned adding I/O through the edge card would be troublesome, my only other MADI experience being with an SSL Alpha Link SX to SSL Delta to HD, the Alpha having parameters you had to set on the faceplate, but the way MIO console works it recognized what I was connecting, I added my I/O from the Burl and got right to work!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #32
If I were you, I’d either:

1. make sure you have great monitoring (and tools that aid with mixing and monitoring)
and/or
2. consider upgrading to an Apollo X and be done with it, if anything

I sort my purchases based on the priority of what I’ve found makes the biggest difference in terms of the final product.

You’re already using a killer mic and preamp. Those make a much bigger difference to me than the difference between using the most expensive ADC.

Not including instruments or a live room, my priorities (based on makes a difference for me) are basically in this order:

-good, controlled monitoring room
-good, full range monitors that I comprehend/understand well
-solid, full, wide DAC
-awesome mics (and/or a freaking Townsend, because it’s a no brainer purchase)
-good, quiet preamps that add or don’t add something as I please
-decently good ADC
-IZOTOPE OXONE ADVANCED w/tonal balance control
-Sonarworks Reference Studio
-incredible ADC

As you can see, from my perspective, the highest quality ADC is pretty much at the bottom of my list.

I owned a silverface Apollo, a Burl B2 ADC, and a Dangerous D-Box. This was a great setup.

When I purchased my Apollo X, I realized that I only preferred having the other two boxes by a very narrow margin—I did plenty of tests. So I sold them both and haven’t looked back.

The ADC and DAC on the Apollo BF & X are pretty great. I have less experience with the BF, but to me, the X is about as good as it gets. *Since it was able to eliminate my need to use the D-Box, THAT is an accomplishment to me.

In terms of other tools I absolutely recommend, I highly enjoy and benefit from Tonal Balance Control (in Izotope Advanced) and Sonarworks because they aid me in comprehending what I’m actually doing and capturing, and how my mixes are going to translate across playback systems.

But as far as ADC... I just recorded with an Apollo Silverface again the other day, and while I know it’s not my favorite scenario, what I captured sounded good and plenty usable.

I really think the ADC is just not a high priority to me. I’ve done plenty of my own tests to know what I’m getting out of it.

And for me, at 13-1700 bucks for a B2, with the Apollo X, I’d rather keep the money in the bank and/or invest into those other items mentioned that I know will be FAR more beneficial.

I mean, if you’re a world class mixer or producer, and you want to know you’re getting the very best money can offer in terms of equipment and your captures: fine. Buy a B2 or a Mothership or whatever it’s called.

But with the Apollo, I know that a B2 basically makes a 5-10% difference that I can personally live without. Because it’s just that: a difference.

Remove my preamps and good mics: that’s a major difference to me.

Remove my software and good monitor setup: that’s a major difference to me.

And ADC doesn’t make or break the sound, it doesn’t give me more mic options, it doesn’t make me a better mixer or improve how I accurately comprehend what I’m doing or hearing.

So what are YOUR priorities?

Because having the best ADC is nice, but to me, it’s like having a Neumann 47. Why do I need to pay twice as much when I have a Flea?

In fact, why do I need the name Neumann at all?

Perhaps, if you’re considering marketing on your website? But I’m not. I want tools that work, tools that I like the sound of, and tools that best serve the music. And I will very vocally and in writing share THAT with more pride than “I have this brand or praised tool.”

I mean this with 100% sincerity: YOU, not your tools, ARE THE MAGIC!

GO BE THE MAGIC AND DO THINGS IN THE WAY ONLY YOU CAN—no matter what tools you decide you’re going to use.

A green faced converter with two channels—especially depending on what you have—may not make as big of a difference as you think/fear, and in my experience, it’s not nearly as crucial as other components. I’d vastly prefer to prioritize the best DAC over ADC.

Not sure if the X is a huge upgrade from the BF/MK2, but either way, if I had a BF, I’d probably make sure I had those two softwares and some monitors I enjoy.

What is it your chasing?

What are you really wanting to improve?

The end listener doesn’t hear converters: they hear a mix and a well produced song/arrangement.

P.S. I’ve heard plenty of KILLER music producer entirely with the blackface Apollo’s. Those units are awesome. They are certainly NOT a weak link in your chain, despite the fact that they do an awful lot for an amazing price. Maybe compare against an X if you want, but I wouldn’t hesitate to use one of those units with confidence and pride.

Sorry this was so rambly and long.

Having purchased SO much gear over the years and finally realizing that I was wasting my time and money, I just don’t like to see anyone suffering over gear obsession. I love Apollo’s (not silverface so much), and I think they sound amazing.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #33
Lives for gear
 
drockfresh's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by YRLK View Post
What is it your chasing?

What are you really wanting to improve?

The end listener doesn’t hear converters: they hear a mix and a well produced song/arrangement.
Agreed. 100%.

I've heard amazing stuff recorded on MUCH less than what I have.

Someone mentioned a much loved Sufjan Stevens album was recorded on what
we would consider junk these days.

But I'm chasing tone so the last 5-10% is meaningful.. to me.

Old 4 weeks ago
  #34
Lives for gear
 

Appreciate the post and tend to agree but also I got the ADC and I love it. By no means is my interest in gear getting in the way of what I’m creating. When I take a break from recording and mixing, I like to explore gear and other aspects of the creative process. It’s fun and that 5-10% difference to my ears is noticeable and inspiring. I could do everything I want to do with my Apollo X8 and plugins and the listener might not notice, but having the Burl, a BAE 1073 an 1176 an LA2A and a Neumann LDC makes tracking fun and inspiring to me.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh View Post
Agreed. 100%.

I've heard amazing stuff recorded on MUCH less than what I have.

Someone mentioned a much loved Sufjan Stevens album was recorded on what
we would consider junk these days.

But I'm chasing tone so the last 5-10% is meaningful.. to me.

So your monitoring setup (acoustic control, DAC, room correction software, and monitors) is 100% to your satisfaction and confidence?

Because if those are right, no matter what tone chasing you’ve chased, how can you know that what you’re hearing is what the listener is going to hear?

Your life, your choices, your money.

After chasing tone and (I argue) the illusion of perfection for so long—I had 15 small diaphragm condensers at one point, I’ve come to my conclusions through wasting a lot of time and money obsessing over things that didn’t make or break anything.

What mattered / matters so much more is hearing my gut reaction to what I’m hearing AND hearing sound accurately. =)

Again, just my two cents. Take or leave it.

Burl’s are nice. Not life/sound changing to the degree that I miss it.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaschaP View Post
I have one in front of an Avid HD Omni and do mostly overdub tracking as you describe. I think it's worth it if every part of your signal chain, including monitoring is already excellent. It would be the last upgrade I would make otherwise.
100%. ALL DAY.

I would even purchase certain softwares over the best ADC easily. I prioritize DAC over ADC, for one, and knowing that my Apollo X is now in a similar league to Avid and Ensembles (based on experience), I feel the ADC obsession is both unnecessary and possibly a distraction from what matters.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #37
Lives for gear
 
drockfresh's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by YRLK View Post
So your monitoring setup (acoustic control, DAC, room correction software, and monitors) is 100% to your satisfaction and confidence?

Because if those are right, no matter what tone chasing you’ve chased, how can you know that what you’re hearing is what the listener is going to hear?

Your life, your choices, your money.

After chasing tone and (I argue) the illusion of perfection for so long—I had 15 small diaphragm condensers at one point, I’ve come to my conclusions through wasting a lot of time and money obsessing over things that didn’t make or break anything.

What mattered / matters so much more is hearing my gut reaction to what I’m hearing AND hearing sound accurately. =)

Again, just my two cents. Take or leave it.

Burl’s are nice. Not life/sound changing to the degree that I miss it.
All good points!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #38
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by YRLK View Post
What mattered / matters so much more is hearing my gut reaction to what I’m hearing AND hearing sound accurately.
This. Definitely more important than gear. Sonarworks changed my life. Rather, hearing more accurately what is going on changed my life and has been more impactful than any piece of gear I own/have owned. It should be the first purchase after an interface and set of monitors.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #39
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterLarkin View Post
This. Definitely more important than gear. Sonarworks changed my life. Rather, hearing more accurately what is going on changed my life and has been more impactful than any piece of gear I own/have owned. It should be the first purchase after an interface and set of monitors.
I have friends who have used more expensive, stand-alone systems, but they add latency, and are more complicated to use.

Bottom line: I once used my mic to setup a demo with a brother who had been using another type of room correction system. *He has two $8500 pair of speakers—Barefoots and ATC’s.

He told me that, after the demonstration, he’d be selling his other system and using Sonarworks.

Several other friends have invested in it as well after using my mic to setup a demo.

Sonarworks and Tonal Balance (part of Ozone 8/9 Advanced) are CRUCIAL to my getting a firm grasp on production values and mix translation.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #40
Lives for gear
 
chet.d's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh View Post
Anyone do a direct comparison between the Burl bomber and Metroc Halo 3D?
The Burl has a very strong (tall) center. The lio is significantly leaner but also pretty linear.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #41
Lives for gear
 
drockfresh's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet.d View Post
The Burl has a very strong (tall) center. The lio is significantly leaner but also pretty linear.
Not sure I understand.

Can you explain this a different way?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #42
Lives for gear
 
chet.d's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh View Post
Not sure I understand.

Can you explain this a different way?
I think the Burl is generally really good for tracking.
Just that it my opinion excels at center info the most and, not my choice for mix capture due to it being tricky to gain stage into it at that point and, there’s some top end compromises at that stage.
Haven’t however heard the latest gen mothership cards.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #43
Lives for gear
 
drockfresh's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet.d View Post
I think the Burl is generally really good for tracking.
Just that it my opinion excels at center info the most and, not my choice for mix capture due to it being tricky to gain stage into it at that point and, there’s some top end compromises at that stage.
Haven’t however heard the latest gen mothership cards.
Ok, cool. Got it.

Adds Mojo on tracking.

Affects high-end in pleasing way.

You might want super clean (no Mojo) on mixing.

D
Old 2 weeks ago
  #44
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh View Post
Anyone do a direct comparison between the Burl bomber and Metroc Halo 3D?
drock, I mentioned I’d write back once I had a chance to compare my LIO-8 3D against the Burl BAD4M in my mothership. It feels like trying to compare two high quality apples, but I’ll say this:

I’m not unhappy with the Metric Halo AD, but I’m very impressed with the Burl. MH may be flat and true, but Burl feels more honest and close with extended range.

Capturing an analog summer mix, the MH low-end seems fuzzy in comparison when I hadn’t thought it was before. The Burl low end is tight and punchy, the highs open and clear. It’s as if my mix captured with the LIO-8 leaned back in the top end, where now it’s all upright with the Burl BAD4M.

The Burl sounds the same with or without the BX1 in this regard. But adding the transformers do round the very top frequencies in a fantastic way. Using the opamps instead of the transformers maybe let’s more transient information through, but personally I’m enjoying the sound of the transformers for the mixes I’m currently working on.

If you’re able to demo some Burl conversion I’m sure you’d be excited to hear what it does for yourself
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