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chasing classic ECM reverb
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1
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Pale Rider's Avatar
 

chasing classic ECM reverb

wondering if there would be some recommendations for chasing the classic
ECM sound, preferably within 2 cost parameters, say sub $1K and sub $2K

not looking for plugin solutions, more hardware based fun-
what are units that chase that sound without the cost that come close?
I know room and mics make all the difference, but I am interested in what sounds like the classic units but doesn't cost $16K or $4K-
I need some good plate in my life

Thanks!

Old 4 weeks ago
  #2
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Pale Rider's Avatar
 

There must be some consensus here on the best
EMT plate
Lexicon 480L
Lexicon 960L
Bricasti M7...
clones?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

A real EMT plate (and lots of it) with some predelay will certainly get you in the neighborhood. No idea what they cost these days.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #4
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Pale Rider's Avatar
 

no one loves a certain plate on some unit, or thinks I should just save for a Bricasti, or reverb is over rated in general, or ....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #5
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
A real EMT plate (and lots of it) with some predelay will certainly get you in the neighborhood. No idea what they cost these days.
unless its a stereo tube plate ... emt's are Cheap..like 300-600 bucks!!! because they are big and need to be isolated from vibration..and you have to know how to torque the springs that suspend the plate

the stereo tube plates are a few grand still not a ton of money

btw nice m79 3M iso loop multi in that pic
Old 4 weeks ago
  #6
Here for the gear
 

I am really, really interested in this also.

Did allot of research at one point and still am on the quest.

I don't think most people get what that sound is really about?

They automatically think "Oh...tons of reverb", but ECM somehow managed to catch a beautiful vibe that at the same time doesn't draw your ear to the sound or production. It almost sounds like there is no reverb happening at all until you listen close, but just listening you are so much enjoying the music that you don't think about production/engineering.

Someone kindly sent me a screenshot of the Briscati Preset #1 that everyone seems to love, but when I tried to recreate it on something else, it wasn't what I was looking for.

I have noticed, though, that the Phoenix reverb plugins seems to get something going that gives you some reverb without you saying "Wow...that's allot of reverb".

How I don't know how? I'm a musician and only a reluctant engineer. Maybe it's just lucky that the first included presets are really good.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #7
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
wondering if there would be some recommendations for chasing the classic
ECM sound, preferably within 2 cost parameters, say sub $1K and sub $2K

not looking for plugin solutions, more hardware based fun-
what are units that chase that sound without the cost that come close?
I know room and mics make all the difference, but I am interested in what sounds like the classic units but doesn't cost $16K or $4K-
I need some good plate in my life

Thanks!

tc m5000 can be found for not much money, holds up to four stereo engines and is still very good; add a lexicon 300 and you're in business.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8
Gear Maniac
 

Hi Jimj
Would you mind sharing this Bricasti preset?
I own one and would like to experiment with it.
Greetings
Ronald
Old 4 weeks ago
  #9
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Pale Rider's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
tc m5000 can be found for not much money, holds up to four stereo engines and is still very good; add a lexicon 300 and you're in business.
do you mean the Lexicon MX300?
Thanks!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
do you mean the Lexicon MX300?
Thanks!
njet, the 2hu 300(L) with/out Larc - i prefer it over the 480.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #11
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carlheinz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
wondering if there would be some recommendations for chasing the classic
ECM sound, preferably within 2 cost parameters, say sub $1K and sub $2K

not looking for plugin solutions, more hardware based fun-
what are units that chase that sound without the cost that come close?
I know room and mics make all the difference, but I am interested in what sounds like the classic units but doesn't cost $16K or $4K-
I need some good plate in my life

Thanks!


From my personal experience chasing the elusive ECM vibe...

not practical but gets you there

EMT 250
AMS RMX
LEX 224XL
AKG
YAMAHA REV 1
EVENTIDE 2016


more practical vintage

Lex PCM 70/80
Klark Technik DN-780


on the cheap

Alesis Midiverb II
Roland SRV-2000
Yamaha REV 5 OR 7

Modern Pedals

Strymon Bigsky
Strymon Flynt (80s setting)long
Eventide Space
Boss RV-500
EHX Cathedral
neunaber

Eurorack

2HP(actually has a nice modulated hall)
Old 4 weeks ago
  #12
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Sigma's Avatar
if you do some research a lot of that "reverb" is the location the stuff was recorded in ..some churches ,.,.halls etc
Old 4 weeks ago
  #13
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Sigma's Avatar
on a side note WHO THE HELL has fluorescent lights on while working????..other than the tech guy when no one else is in the room UGHHH!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #14
Gear Nut
 
Pale Rider's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
if you do some research a lot of that "reverb" is the location the stuff was recorded in ..some churches ,.,.halls etc
if you do some research, you'll find
"I know room and mics make all the difference, but I am interested in what sounds like the classic units but doesn't cost $16K or $4K-"

but thanks for the free obvious mansplaining

Old 3 weeks ago
  #15
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OHM GHOST's Avatar
 

From an interview In Tape Op w/ Jan E. Kongshaug:

In 1970 the EMT plate was the reverb we used, and that was it. Then the Lexicon came, so we combined the EMT plate and the Lexicon reverb. But now we have a lot of different reverb machines. I can use eight different stereo reverbs, which have different rooms — large room, church, or a small space. So, on a snare drum, I can have three different reverbs. A good thing in working with analog is it is much easier to control. I have 16 sends from each channel. I don't use that all of the time, but for special pop productions I have a lot of different reverbs and delays and things. I think it's really nice to have the hardware. I have the Lexicon 960L and a TC Electronic System 6000, which is a Danish machine. Bricasti Designs' M7 is a new one I have, which I love.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OHM GHOST View Post
From an interview In Tape Op w/ Jan E. Kongshaug:

In 1970 the EMT plate was the reverb we used, and that was it. Then the Lexicon came, so we combined the EMT plate and the Lexicon reverb. But now we have a lot of different reverb machines. I can use eight different stereo reverbs, which have different rooms — large room, church, or a small space. So, on a snare drum, I can have three different reverbs. A good thing in working with analog is it is much easier to control. I have 16 sends from each channel. I don't use that all of the time, but for special pop productions I have a lot of different reverbs and delays and things. I think it's really nice to have the hardware. I have the Lexicon 960L and a TC Electronic System 6000, which is a Danish machine. Bricasti Designs' M7 is a new one I have, which I love.
jan erik kongshaug is a genious and was reponsible for getting things done in a very tasty manner on so many ecm records (way more than manfred eicher claimed to be but that's another discussion...) - imo the point he's making is having a choice!

i'd add to the list quantec and eventide - and sony , yamaha, roland, infernal machine, ams, klark or whatever...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #17
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robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHM GHOST View Post
From an interview In Tape Op w/ Jan E. Kongshaug:

. . . . .
I thought I had found everything Kongshaug had said that was available on the internet! Thanks for this quote!

Eicher adopted the Lexicon starting with the 224 very early. I'll bet he or one of his engineers got one of the first ones off the production line.

Konsghaug is the master of the ECM reverb sound. Another is Stefano Amerio and his studio in Udine, Artesuono. Amerio's sound is more surround-ish, using the 480L, TC 6000 and recently the M7.

A fellow I recently communicated with who had done some work in Rainbow Studio (Jan Erik's place) said Kongshaug used several reverbs in parallel, EQing the sends and possibly even the returns. My impression is that he does not use a lot of compression - not sure if the reverb sends have any dynamic control on them.

What's most interesting to me is that the ECM "sound" gets achieved whether it's in Rainbow or Artesuono or Studio La Buissonne in Provence or Avatar in NY. I'm inclined to think it's not which particular unit is used, but more how it's fed and EQed and blended. There are several algorithms available in the old Lex units, with two or more engines, which makes the possibilities almost endless. I'm also inclined to think these guys are taking their secrets to their graves! There is some serious alchemy to getting that level of reverb goodness.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #18
Gear Nut
 
Pale Rider's Avatar
 

So, I guess I'm sort of wondering now if
a Bricasti M7 is the best way of getting this done now-
even at the expense, the size and ease of use, along with the modernity
of the unit might make it the best choice for a small studio

I have the Eventide Space and Strymon Big Sky, along with
sping units like the Great British Spring, but I'd love a plate that just
kills and is easy to use
Old 3 weeks ago
  #19
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Plush's Avatar
Move towards Lexicon 300 and t.c. electronic 4000 machines.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Move towards Lexicon 300 and t.c. electronic 4000 machines.
...and/or lexicon pcm96s, quantec 2496 and sony dre-s777 for surround.

(only problem is they are faaar beyond the op's price point unless s/he is lucky to find them used and in good shape somewhere)
Old 3 weeks ago
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Move towards Lexicon 300 and t.c. electronic 4000 machines.
You mean these two sub $1.5K units over the $3.8K unit?
I'm assuming you mean the rack units that are pretty new
one you'd start with first for any reason?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #22
Gear Nut
 

In the sub $1k category is building your own plate. Looking for a good plate sound in hardware lead me down that path recently and I spent somewhere around $800 (usd) building one that’s awful close to to an EMT 140 in size. That includes a linear actuator/control board for remote control of the damper, surface mount transducer and pickups and paying someone to do the welding for me. Using a crown d75 to power the transducer and piezo preamps from Zeppelin Design the noise is low and the sound is tunable with a torque wrench. Took a while to get it together and tuned how I liked but the results are more than worth the time and expense.
Attached Thumbnails
chasing classic ECM reverb-61627392-aa1e-4798-b92e-450e10576601.jpg   chasing classic ECM reverb-ceab00df-5b3c-4c50-8eb6-bb1e0406c462.jpg  
Old 3 weeks ago
  #23
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robert82's Avatar
Although Jan Erik Kongshaug said he used a plate in 1970, that's not central to the ECM sound. He somehow managed to make it sound "not" like a plate, IOW, he got his own sound . . . but once the 224 came out, it was all or mostly Lexicon from then on.

I'm with Plush and a couple others - if you insist on doing this with hardware (keep in mind the Relab LX480 is almost indistinguishable from the hardware) I'd go with the Lex M300, TC 4000, even the PCM series.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #24
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Although Jan Erik Kongshaug said he used a plate in 1970, that's not central to the ECM sound. He somehow managed to make it sound "not" like a plate, IOW, he got his own sound . . .
I guess the early sound is what comes to mind for me when I think of ECM -- wow, a fretless bass with verb on it! -- but it always sounded pretty darn "platey" to me. But not just any old 140 would do it. There were and still are a lot of crappy ones around. Or maybe they're good ones that nobody knows how to properly tweak.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I guess the early sound is what comes to mind for me when I think of ECM -- wow, a fretless bass with verb on it! -- but it always sounded pretty darn "platey" to me. But not just any old 140 would do it. There were and still are a lot of crappy ones around. Or maybe they're good ones that nobody knows how to properly tweak.
Kongshaug has stated that "Combining different reverbs, that's my art." He's been honing reverb for 50 years. I think a lot of his sound is "how" he feeds the signal to the device, in addition to "tweaking". I'd love to be a fly on the wall during one of his ECM sessions.

Here's a thread about the ECM sound:
ECM recording techniques
Old 3 weeks ago
  #26
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Here's a thread about the ECM sound:
ECM recording techniques
Seen that, thanks for the reminder.

That guy started in 2003 -- that ECM sound, while still darn wet, is pretty different from what they started out with. To me, anyway.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #27
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p.s. although i very much like(d) the way jek used reverb on many ecm albums, it should be noted that it wasn't always to all musician's liking (as i found out when working with some of them)...

not meant to put down jek's achievements! possibly just another (yet typical) case for bias between engineer's, producer's, musician's and the audience's take on things, different expectations, perception etc.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
You mean these two sub $1.5K units over the $3.8K unit?
I'm assuming you mean the rack units that are pretty new
one you'd start with first for any reason?
No, I'm saying that you should try to find used equipement. Start with looking for used Lexicon 300. Commonly found used for $800-$1200.

t.c. is found for even less.

Both have excellent sounds.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #29
I think that a pretty large part of it comes from judicious use of pre-delay. Kongshaug is kind of amazing at making things really wet, but never in a way that obscures the detail of the attack of the sound. It sounds huge, but also very detailed and close at the same time. Sorcery.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #30
Gear Nut
 
Pale Rider's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Although Jan Erik Kongshaug said he used a plate in 1970, that's not central to the ECM sound. He somehow managed to make it sound "not" like a plate, IOW, he got his own sound . . . but once the 224 came out, it was all or mostly Lexicon from then on.

I'm with Plush and a couple others - if you insist on doing this with hardware (keep in mind the Relab LX480 is almost indistinguishable from the hardware) I'd go with the Lex M300, TC 4000, even the PCM series.
you really love that Relab LX480 plugin?
I could be persuaded, if it's that good
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