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It's about 3 things, performance, microphone and preamp.. Change my mind.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #61
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Originally Posted by bob2018 View Post
I must say, since I got a (studio) dog/puppy, people who come in the studio are x10 happier when seeing my pup.
Happier = beter vibes = good feeling = beter vocal performance = beter song


Oh yeah nearly forgot, "Happier Ears", I ain't blasting no more
100% a dog can really make the studio a more relaxing place.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
Yuck
Ariel pink, Grimes, Tame Impala, etc.... editing is one of the biggest parts of these artists production. There’s not a lot of. ‘performing’ going on. Just enough to sample. But the result can still be music. It's also the sound of radio today, so I though it should be mentioned!

Last edited by hebjam; 4 weeks ago at 12:27 PM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hebjam View Post
Editing. For a bunch of the artists I’m into. If your editing skills are good enough you can take almost anything and turn it into something
There is a lot of truth to this and many of the top charting records are done this way today. Ahh the power of the DAW...

I guess it shows my age because I prefer artist and/or bands rehears before they go to the studio. Before anyone says "where is the spontaneity"? You can still be spontaneous with well rehearsed music, it just means you have a better foundation to build upon.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hebjam View Post
Ariel pink, Grimes, Tame Impala, etc.... editing is one of the biggest parts of these artists production. There’s not a lot of. ‘performing’ going on. Just enough to sample. But the result can still be music. It's also the sound of radio today, so I though it should be mentioned!
Agreed but I gotta say Pink is one hell of a performer!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #65
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasCat View Post
Agreed but I gotta say Pink is one hell of a performer!
Wrong pink (but yes she is)!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #66
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasCat View Post
There is a lot of truth to this and many of the top charting records are done this way today. Ahh the power of the DAW...

I guess it shows my age because I prefer artist and/or bands rehears before they go to the studio. Before anyone says "where is the spontaneity"? You can still be spontaneous with well rehearsed music, it just means you have a better foundation to build upon.
For a band/performance based record, I absolutely agree.

But the aesthetic of much music these days is not that. How would an EDM artist rehearse for their recording? How would James Blake or Billie Eilish perform their song in “one take” (with all vocal layers etc). The editing is part of the construction as much as a kick mic is for an AC/DC recording.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #67
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I really think Rap really changed the way pop music works now. 'Recording in your bedroom' has become the modern aesthetic. The visions tend to be far more singular. And a lot more people can do it without getting the cops called on them (quieter)! Even the artists that go into big studios maintain this aesthetic now.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #68
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It’s obviously about EVERYTHING. Every aspect has an impact. Not an equal impact of course. It’s a false choice, is it this or that. There is a hierarchy of importance. Is it the script, cinematography, acting, directing, set design, editing etc?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Wrong pink (but yes she is)!


Lord I just feel older everyday...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #70
It's about 3 things, performance, microphone and preamp..

You're lumping in widely varying contributions/concepts to a presumable musical product, the latter (preamp) being largely insignificant. Gear boards like this one would have you believe otherwise.

Obviously the performance is by far the most important. It's our job to capture it in a way the listener can enjoy it. The preamp's job is first and foremost to amplify the signal. It can color the signal, too, depending on the preamp and how it's used, but not enough to produce a hit. The common listener won't know the difference, or care. You might. Priorities.

Personally, I can get away with any preamp that isn't broken, and I have plenty of outboard pres, but will often just use my interface preamps. There are many other ways to attain color, too, including mic selection and placement. And let's not forget post production.

As far as the less important things beyond the performance and song, the room plays a huge part in the sound, as well as mic selection and placement as mentioned, all of which thoroughly trump (no capital T) the preamp, IMO.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Autechre? DJ Shadow? Venitian Snares? Amon Tobin?

(if he's talking punk, then I'd kind of agree with you!)
Point taken.

I just hate records in style that are more people focused (not sequence and sample focused) that have a ton of often quite obvious editing. I'd rather spend time doing almost anything else in the studio, and I think the clients agree.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #72
A perfect, stellar performance of a ****ty (garbage) song will result in a ****ty (garbage) recording, no matter what is done after the song is written.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoodle View Post
There is only one thing that matters....and that is envisioning the final mix.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
But that ain't how popular music works. You have to leave space for serendipity to intervene. That's always some of the best stuff.
This debate has me pondering both sides. I listen to a lot of home grown music so I'm looking at it from that perspective.

I can usually tell when I'm hearing a song that has been planned out closely right from the start as it sounds tighter and the flow just really clicks. If the performances are strong and emotive these tunes really tend to stand out to me as "sounding like a record".

Then there are those guys who pretty much write and record on the fly (). Again, with emotive performances these tunes still work.

Maybe the best scenario is a perfectly planned production where serendipity still crashes the party at some point.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #74
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For me the two big things are
1-creative idea/ concept
2-execution

Execution could be great performance or talent at sound design. Gear and all that stuff is way down the list. If you are a studio owner though, I can see how you would have a bunch of other considerations though...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #75
With regard to editing, it was always my impression that there were more than a couple of pretty noticeable edits in Nirvana's Nevermind album. Miles Davis was also reportedly a big fan of editing in certain parts of his career. Across genres, it's part of the studio magic tool set, for sure. Some folks eschew it, but lots of folks use it, sometimes reluctantly, sometimes enthusiastically.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Some folks eschew it, but lots of folks use it, sometimes reluctantly, sometimes enthusiastically.
Use a tool enough and you get better with it. Whoever it was that edited "Nevermind" ought to be pretty good by now.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclenny View Post
Maybe the best scenario is a perfectly planned production where serendipity still crashes the party at some point.
That, I think is the real deal. Don't get too locked in to a pre-prodction plan. Let things flow a bit.

Of course, this was in response to a statement about having the entire thing laid out 100% before hitting the AC switch. I don't think that's possible, much less best practices.
That's like interviewing someone; you ask how was the flight? And they respond, "The plane was evacuated because of a bomb threat!" Your next question is "So what did they serve for lunch?"
Old 4 weeks ago
  #78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Use a tool enough and you get better with it. Whoever it was that edited "Nevermind" ought to be pretty good by now.
Are you suggesting I need more timely references?


tl;dr for below: old guy going on; very skippable...


I always enjoyed editing as a kid. How many 11 year olds have their own (admittedly ****ty) splicing block?

And when I got my first four track, there were only so many tools at my disposal (being young and broke) -- but one thing I spent resolutely on was a good, precisely tooled splicing block. (It was $20 or $25 for single hunk of metal! ) I loved the sudden magic of juxtaposition. (I'd done a little 16 mm movie making by then and had edited a 12 minute movie, thought a lot about montage theory and I was interested in how it applied to and differed from musical juxtaposition. In the 80s, I interned in a cable TV production facility, mostly doing cam work, but also got a chance to sit as editor on a couple projects.)

In the 1990s I took on a German public radio journo as an ongoing client. At first we were tracking to ADATs -- but after a couple of ADAT-style machine synched- punch-edits -- which were more white knuckle than fun -- she was arguing that we should edit on one of my 1/4" machines. I had one last card up my sleeve in the form of Cool Edit 96, the first two track editor I'd found that was much good or fast enough to be practical. After a hardware upgrade improved performance considerably, I fell into a good, fast edit groove with it. [And also got into nonlinear video editing, though I haven't done anything narrative/theatrical; I'd like to at least once before the final clock out.]

Anyhow, editing. I've always had a soft spot. But then I always liked shortcuts and tricks and... studio magic.

(When the studio magic works. Which is why I have remained largely stayed away from vocal tuning, which mostly doesn't, for me.)
Old 4 weeks ago
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hebjam View Post
Ariel pink, Grimes, Tame Impala, etc.... editing is one of the biggest parts of these artists production. There’s not a lot of. ‘performing’ going on. Just enough to sample. But the result can still be music. It's also the sound of radio today, so I though it should be mentioned!
I know that's the sound of radio today. And that's a big part of what turns me off of a lot of music. I hate doing that in the studio, and I hate listening to it, most of the time. There are exceptions, its just not what I care for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasCat View Post
There is a lot of truth to this and many of the top charting records are done this way today. Ahh the power of the DAW...

I guess it shows my age because I prefer artist and/or bands rehears before they go to the studio. Before anyone says "where is the spontaneity"? You can still be spontaneous with well rehearsed music, it just means you have a better foundation to build upon.
same

Quote:
Originally Posted by hebjam View Post
I really think Rap really changed the way pop music works now. 'Recording in your bedroom' has become the modern aesthetic. The visions tend to be far more singular. And a lot more people can do it without getting the cops called on them (quieter)! Even the artists that go into big studios maintain this aesthetic now.
This is quite true. A lot of music has little to no human element left.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Coates View Post
A perfect, stellar performance of a ****ty (garbage) song will result in a ****ty (garbage) recording, no matter what is done after the song is written.
No, its a good recording of a ****ty song. The song being bad doesn't make the recording bad. I probably makes the recording useless, and it definitely makes it unappealing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
With regard to editing, it was always my impression that there were more than a couple of pretty noticeable edits in Nirvana's Nevermind album. Miles Davis was also reportedly a big fan of editing in certain parts of his career. Across genres, it's part of the studio magic tool set, for sure. Some folks eschew it, but lots of folks use it, sometimes reluctantly, sometimes enthusiastically.
Cutting large chunks of takes to assemble into final masters is VERY different from the modern esthetic of mico editing within each track that people seem to think is necessary to make a record. We're not talking "taking the bridge from take 3 and spicing it into take 4, with the outro of take one." We're talking about every track having everything editied to the grid. There's a producer that I know of who has an overnight guy who edits every track of every song that was worked on that day. I'd rather be a garbage man than have that gig. I know a a guy near here who is usually making edits before the band even hears the take.

i personally have no interest in that style of working or listening.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Are you suggesting I need more timely references?
Suggesting that Nirvana needed a better editor. But it's relative -- Sly Stone needed a way better editor. With a razor blade that didn't have drugs on it. Check out some of the singles -- yowza.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #81
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwdummer0 View Post
Change my mind.
Ok I'll try...it's about marketing

Old 4 weeks ago
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
I know that's the sound of radio today. And that's a big part of what turns me off of a lot of music. I hate doing that in the studio, and I hate listening to it, most of the time. There are exceptions, its just not what I care for.
I get it. I think by 'editing' I actually meant 'loop based composing'. i'm mostly a thrash Metal-head, but lately I've been loving the new Snoop Dog album, Blood Orange, Nipsey Hussle etc.... Not a ton of real 'performances' on those. But the production is like a performance so.... But yea. Tons of edits in Rock music aren't great to listen to.

Last edited by psycho_monkey; 4 weeks ago at 01:30 AM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
Point taken.

I just hate records in style that are more people focused (not sequence and sample focused) that have a ton of often quite obvious editing. I'd rather spend time doing almost anything else in the studio, and I think the clients agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hebjam View Post
I get it. I think by 'editing' I actually meant 'loop based composing'. i'm mostly a thrash Metal-head, but lately I've been loving the new Snoop Dog album, Blood Orange, Nipsey Hussle etc.... Not a ton of real 'performances' on those. But the production is like a performance so.... But yea. Tons of edits in Rock music aren't great to listen to.
I think it’s all dependent on the style, and how well it’s done.

For example, the libertines 2nd album sounds like a fairly cool ramshackle performance, but it was heavily edited together in pro tools - they only managed 2 weeks recording before the band fell apart again, and it was left to the producer to salvage quite a bit of it!

As far as I’m aware..

At the same time I think there’s songs that are spoiled by a lack of editing - there’s a Ray Lamontagne song where it’s live drums against a drum machine loop, and it goes off and flams in places...totally destroys the illusion. Why not tighten the machine to the live drummer?

Also band of horses “no-ones gonna love you..” - the delay on the guitar is meant to be tempo synced but it wobbles and for me makes the whole band wobble.

Contrast that with A’s “Nothing”. It’s heavily edited (one of the first properly pro toolsed up records), it’s a kind of Brit punk take on what later became my-metal I guess - but it still sounds like a band with attitude to me!

It’s all taste. I did a recording earlier this week where the band (including vocals and acoustic) was live, then we added extra guitars, keys and BVs. I chopped between Vox/acoustic takes to get the best performance, and I then remapped the click to the live drums and just nipped and tucked a few of the hits (well more than a few, just making the feel consistent bar to bar) and fixed any bass and guitar moments that flammed against that.

The result is something that doesn’t feel locked to grid, but does feel tight, with no distracting wobbles, and as a bonus it’s a real performance. I don’t feel guilty about that!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
I know that's the sound of radio today. And that's a big part of what turns me off of a lot of music. I hate doing that in the studio, and I hate listening to it, most of the time. There are exceptions, its just not what I care for.


same


This is quite true. A lot of music has little to no human element left.


No, its a good recording of a ****ty song. The song being bad doesn't make the recording bad. I probably makes the recording useless, and it definitely makes it unappealing.


Cutting large chunks of takes to assemble into final masters is VERY different from the modern esthetic of mico editing within each track that people seem to think is necessary to make a record. We're not talking "taking the bridge from take 3 and spicing it into take 4, with the outro of take one." We're talking about every track having everything editied to the grid. There's a producer that I know of who has an overnight guy who edits every track of every song that was worked on that day. I'd rather be a garbage man than have that gig. I know a a guy near here who is usually making edits before the band even hears the take.

i personally have no interest in that style of working or listening.
I tend to think of that as music construction. I also tend to think of it as a solo/ivory tower sort of thing.

I mean, if you know you're going to construct your music in such fashion, why even have a band? For public appearances and videos?

That said, that's how it's done these days, I guess. Songwriting and production teams. Cross-promotions and guest star appearances in other folks' songs.

But I'm not in the trenches. It's been a long time since I was. And, to be frank, I'm not sure I was ever cut out for the trenches. I mean, I stopped listening to commercial radio around 1987 because I just couldn't take what passed for pop and rock radio in LA at that point. And, you know, you gotta keep up, it always seemed to me; musicians were always talking about the stuff on the radio. Radio probably doesn't play as big or the same kind of role, anymore, but what's hot is always going to be, you know, what's hot. The latest cool trick, the hottest production effect, will always be something you're expected to know.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Suggesting that Nirvana needed a better editor. But it's relative -- Sly Stone needed a way better editor. With a razor blade that didn't have drugs on it. Check out some of the singles -- yowza.
With regard to the edits on Nevermind,* you have to keep in mind that my very favorite act of the mid 90s was Portishead. I thought of the brash edits on Nevermind as bold post-modernism.


* I had ignored the album for a few years -- as mentioned, I didn't listen to commercial radio by then -- but, having investigated grunge scene early on [going as far as Seattle], I'd decided that rock really was moribund. I'd tuned out by the time Nevermind started making cultural waves.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I think it’s all dependent on the style, and how well it’s done.

For example, the libertines 2nd album sounds like a fairly cool ramshackle performance, but it was heavily edited together in pro tools - they only managed 2 weeks recording before the band fell apart again, and it was left to the producer to salvage quite a bit of it!

As far as I’m aware..

At the same time I think there’s songs that are spoiled by a lack of editing - there’s a Ray Lamontagne song where it’s live drums against a drum machine loop, and it goes off and flams in places...totally destroys the illusion. Why not tighten the machine to the live drummer?

Also band of horses “no-ones gonna love you..” - the delay on the guitar is meant to be tempo synced but it wobbles and for me makes the whole band wobble.

Contrast that with A’s “Nothing”. It’s heavily edited (one of the first properly pro toolsed up records), it’s a kind of Brit punk take on what later became my-metal I guess - but it still sounds like a band with attitude to me!

It’s all taste. I did a recording earlier this week where the band (including vocals and acoustic) was live, then we added extra guitars, keys and BVs. I chopped between Vox/acoustic takes to get the best performance, and I then remapped the click to the live drums and just nipped and tucked a few of the hits (well more than a few, just making the feel consistent bar to bar) and fixed any bass and guitar moments that flammed against that.

The result is something that doesn’t feel locked to grid, but does feel tight, with no distracting wobbles, and as a bonus it’s a real performance. I don’t feel guilty about that!
This is a great post. I bolded "Its all taste." I feel like that's the key. I feel like a lot of what I hear sound so much like "well...this is how we do it now." with no regard to what is sounds like. I feel like i've heard things that I'd SWEAR the editor did their job with out the speaker even powered up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I tend to think of that as music construction. I also tend to think of it as a solo/ivory tower sort of thing.

I mean, if you know you're going to construct your music in such fashion, why even have a band? For public appearances and videos?

That said, that's how it's done these days, I guess. Songwriting and production teams. Cross-promotions and guest star appearances in other folks' songs.

But I'm not in the trenches. It's been a long time since I was. And, to be frank, I'm not sure I was ever cut out for the trenches. I mean, I stopped listening to commercial radio around 1987 because I just couldn't take what passed for pop and rock radio in LA at that point. And, you know, you gotta keep up, it always seemed to me; musicians were always talking about the stuff on the radio. Radio probably doesn't play as big or the same kind of role, anymore, but what's hot is always going to be, you know, what's hot. The latest cool trick, the hottest production effect, will always be something you're expected to know.
I guess, anymore, I take the Roy Hallee style of not really knowing what others are doing, because I'm just worried about making the records I'm working on.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
That, I think is the real deal. Don't get too locked in to a pre-prodction plan. Let things flow a bit.

Of course, this was in response to a statement about having the entire thing laid out 100% before hitting the AC switch. I don't think that's possible, much less best practices.
That's like interviewing someone; you ask how was the flight? And they respond, "The plane was evacuated because of a bomb threat!" Your next question is "So what did they serve for lunch?"
Hot wings?
Chris
Old 4 weeks ago
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasCat View Post
Agreed but I gotta say Pink is one hell of a performer!
And if she ever gets into Reggae, she could be Pink I.
Chris
Old 4 weeks ago
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
slightly off topic but i'd like to share a memory:

years ago, i got invited to a birthday party of a famous psychologist who became friends with yehudi menuhin; he also joined the party, bringing along one of his rather expensive violins (in a plastic bag btw) - later that evening, he played a few tunes pretty much in a street musician's manner, rushing over more complicated parts but everything con sentimento! he was incredibly funny and entertaining and we all were completely floored by his presence (he possibily could have played pretty much anything in any possible way).
mr menuhin seemed to be very well aware of his effect on the party people (which included numerous intellectuals and artists) and seemed to enjoy it a lot!

___


now if this would have been recorded, i'm not sure whether the discussion would have been about what gear to use (i think one better uses all great gear on a great artist!) but about whether any of this what we experienced would translate to the recording and if so, what led to this; here i'm pretty sure i'd relate to dozens of other factors, none of them dealing with gear...
Did he play "Jung Americans"? Or "Dixie Freud Chicken"?
Chris
Old 4 weeks ago
  #90
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funny how some folks think to exactly know what matters (out of a veeeery limited choice of factors) and in what order... - i'm more with those who keep adding relevant factors (i'd like to add education and experience) and stay away from generic classification: it depends on just a bit too many things and the order imo can hardly ever get nailed down with certainty (and hence doesn't really matter much).



p.s. anyway, is anyone around here, being older than say 50 years, still listening to AND liking current commercial music (or however things are getting called)?

p.p.s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
Did he play "Jung Americans"? Or "Dixie Freud Chicken"?
Chris
lol, but no, he seemed to be more into dixie dregs than dixie chickens! - the young gods would have been a good match too since the psychologist actually studied with c.g. jung as her teacher and the party was in a restaurant in bern, switzerland: buy/play local...

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 4 weeks ago at 09:58 AM.. Reason: edited
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