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Would I have problems using Yamaha HS7 in a small room?
Old 9th September 2019
  #31
Deleted e09cd8e
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
Most pros do have multiple references. But I doubt you could find many (or any?) pros who have main speakers with 5” or 3” woofers. So this isn’t really a positive argument for small speakers.
Your post implies that all 8” speakers are the same. But within the category of 8” studio monitors there are wide ranges of box sizes, front/back/no porting, porting of various sizes, shapes and depth, cone weight, cone material, cone rigidity, crossover, amplifier design, amplifier power... the list could go on. There isn’t a generic sound that all 8” studio monitors have, because the don’t all perform and sound the same.
In the old school pro studios, 8” speakers are not considered large. Double 15” soffited monitors are considered large.
The OP wanted to know if 8” speakers were too large for a small room. Your “answer” is that 8” woofers are universally awful.
I didn’t know that, possibly because it isn’t true.
Most 8" woofer, 1" dome tweeter monitors have an awful midrange. Sorry the truth hurts. The HS8 is one of the only ones that maintains the midrange response but it still has issues.

8" is large for a nearfield speaker. Most 8" woofer, two-way nearfield speakers are rather unsuitable for use as the sole set of nearfield monitors. A 5-7" pair tends to work better in that situation. Combine the 8" woofer pair with a pair of NS10m type stuff and the situation changes but such a setup is rather impractical with small rooms and small budgets.
Old 9th September 2019
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctambulant View Post
Most 8" woofer, 1" dome tweeter monitors have an awful midrange. Sorry the truth hurts. The HS8 is one of the only ones that maintains the midrange response but it still has issues.

8" is large for a nearfield speaker. Most 8" woofer, two-way nearfield speakers are rather unsuitable for use as the sole set of nearfield monitors. A 5-7" pair tends to work better in that situation. Combine the 8" woofer pair with a pair of NS10m type stuff and the situation changes but such a setup is rather impractical with small rooms and small budgets.
What you are saying is opinion. You are SAYING it is the truth, which is both intellectually dishonest and not useful information for the OP or any other reader.
Is your opinion based on any objective studies? Is it based on extensive experience in speaker design? How many different 8” studio monitor designs have you mixed on?
Old 9th September 2019
  #33
Deleted e09cd8e
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
What you are saying is opinion. You are SAYING it is the truth, which is both intellectually dishonest and not useful information for the OP or any other reader.
Is your opinion based on any objective studies? Is it based on extensive experience in speaker design? How many different 8” studio monitor designs have you mixed on?
I don't give a flying **** about your Ayn Rand, all-caps audio gear objectivism. It is the truth for me. I've used 8" woofer two-way stuff from the Behringer TRUTH B2031A to the Quested V2108. None of them maintain the midrange presence as well as smaller woofer, two-way monitors. None. Zero. Nada. Deal with it.
Old 9th September 2019
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted e09cd8e View Post
I don't give a flying **** about your Ayn Rand audio gear objectivism. I've used 8" woofer two way stuff from the Behringer B2031A to the Quested V2108. None of them maintain the midrange presence as well as smaller woofer two-way monitors or three-ways. None. Zero. Nada. Deal with it.
You going somewhat raving bonkers isn’t something I have to deal with. Your anger is your problem. If this is your usual reaction when someone disagrees with you, think about seeking help.
I do understand your opinion (which you keep stating) and that your opinion is based on whatever individual experience you have.
I hope you understand the difference between a strong opinion and a provable fact. Or at least that other readers do.
Old 9th September 2019
  #35
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Brian M. Boykin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctambulant View Post
That thread completely ignores the fact that additional crossovers kill detail and smaller woofers are more accurate in the all critical midrange. I’ve heard exactly one brand of three way monitors I’d take over most two ways, ATC, and I’d still take a few two-way nearfields over ATCs for general mixing work. For tracking monitors yes, head room is very important but for mixing, often those large, 8” monitors and most three ways will be much less useful than a 5-7” woofer one. All too often the best monitor in the line isn’t the biggest one, eg the JBL 308 is far worse than the 305. Then one of the smaller monitors will bring better mixing results faster. The huge mains monitors go unused in commercial studios much of the time by the engineer for making any real decisions. Two-way nearfield monitors are the most popular for many reasons beyond price.

HS8s are a good monitor and sound wide open without too much midrange recession but many styles of music have nothing really below 40hz. I’d still recommend it over the 5 and 7 because it’s a much better sounding speaker. They are one of the more normal sounding 8” two ways but the presence region is a little dull and the always on limiter prevents hearing punch and very fine compression super accurately. I can get better results faster from smaller monitors from other brands that have enough low end extension and a better midrange. They’re rough mix monsters but not perfect as a sole monitor and the electronics in them are gimped. As is that woofer.
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve written. I can’t confirm or deny your opinions on the different monitors because I’ve never heard them. I’m still using Event 20/20 BAS’s. I have a set of Yamaha ns500m’s and their only purpose is to check the low end and for cranking so we can feel the music, not for critical decisions. So I understand what your saying. I was throwing out another train of thought contrary to “small room means small speakers.” I don’t think 8” woofers are “huge” by any stretch. I don’t know the OP’s entire situation, but hopefully he’s not stuck in that room forever. Once he starts getting into medium sized rooms he’ll be able to get usefulness from an extended low end. I’d hate to see him buy twice, even though that’s probably reality.
Old 9th September 2019
  #36
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Brian M. Boykin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted e09cd8e View Post
I don't give a flying **** about your Ayn Rand, all-caps audio gear objectivism. It is the truth for me. I've used 8" woofer two-way stuff from the Behringer TRUTH B2031A to the Quested V2108. None of them maintain the midrange presence as well as smaller woofer, two-way monitors. None. Zero. Nada. Deal with it.
Your applying personal experience with a few monitors across an entire range of monitors. Bushman was a mastering engineer from the mid 70’s into the 80’s. I’ve gleamed countless amounts of knowledge from his expertise. Don’t discount him. You want to get serious about your claims post the REW results that support them. Without actual data and knowing how your room is treated any midrange issues your making could be coming from any number of Acoustical deficiencies in your room. We’re making general claims with no “definitive” while your making claims with definitives about all monitors with 8” woofers.
Old 9th September 2019
  #37
Lives for gear
My nearfields are HS80M. My room is about 12' x 15' x 9'(sloped). Works out well for a rental house. The I think the yamaha line of speakers are great bang/buck. They dont flatter the sound, they make you fight for the mix like the old NS-10's, the corssover point is well done. Perfect for the cash. Full spectrum enough to not need subs. One EQ knob to match with the room. Decent mid-level stuff.

The only downside is they are not as easy to listen too for many hours vs. stuff that costs more. Have to draw the line somewhere.
Old 9th September 2019
  #38
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dc_r's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
This gets hashed over on GS three or four times a year. There is a very persistent myth (and it is a myth) that large speakers don’t sound good in small rooms. The opposite is more often true. Tiny speakers don’t sound very good unless you are recording tiny instruments and listening at low levels.
Within most manufacturers’ product lines, as the size and cost of the speakers go up, the quality of playback goes up. The speakers cover a wider frequency range and will play louder without failure or distortion. That isn’t a bad thing in any room.
If your small room can’t be treated and has awful low frequency peaks and dips, there are hardware and software means to limit bandwidth or compensate somewhat for resonances.
Deliberately buying monitors with anemic low frequency response is like buying a car that is unable to go faster than 65 mph on a flat highway. You are not buying serious performance in either case.
This is totally untrue. This is not a myth but is all about how sound waves get bounced around a small room... I would liken it to a very large light in a small room- the output of which is so high that you cannot control it...
Old 9th September 2019
  #39
Gear Addict
 

@OP I also make music in a small room, I was not happy how my Dynaudio BM6a MK2 sounded in there. Long story short there was no bass at the listing position no matter what I tried. I decided to give a pair of Genelec 8010a's a try and the sound in my little to is now wonderful.

I have tight focused bass at the listening position and when I walk around the sound is balanced and equal.

I loved my BM6's but they were simply too large for the room both in terms of power and physical size.
Old 9th September 2019
  #40
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_r View Post
This is totally untrue. This is not a myth but is all about how sound waves get bounced around a small room... I would liken it to a very large light in a small room- the output of which is so high that you cannot control it...
Let’s suppose that your room has some nasty peaks around 80 hz. If the 5” speakers roll off at 120 Hz and the 8” roll off at 60 Hz, yes, the larger speakers will excite those problem modes more than the smaller speakers. If you are unable or unwilling to fix the problem with treatment or speaker positioning, you could adjust the response of the 8” speakers with hardware or software. Since you can make those adjustment specific to the problem frequencies, you can get the same performance from both speakers at the problem frequencies while getting more low frequency performance from the larger speakers at frequencies that are not resonant in your room.
Old 9th September 2019
  #41
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Brian M. Boykin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
Let’s suppose that your room has some nasty peaks around 80 hz. If the 5” speakers roll off at 120 Hz and the 8” roll off at 60 Hz, yes, the larger speakers will excite those problem modes more than the smaller speakers. If you are unable or unwilling to fix the problem with treatment or speaker positioning, you could adjust the response of the 8” speakers with hardware or software. Since you can make those adjustment specific to the problem frequencies, you can get the same performance from both speakers at the problem frequencies while getting more low frequency performance from the larger speakers at frequencies that are not resonant in your room.
My approach is to leave the speakers flat and filter out those frequencies in the mix per instrument. Highpass the bass, kick, etc from 35hz to 45hz. Just get rid of it. If your having it mastered then ask your mastering engineer how he’d like you to deal with it. You can’t fix what your playback system has been EQ’d not to play back. You can, however, EQ out in the mix what your playback system cannot reproduce. I may be saying the same thing you are but worded differently.
Old 9th September 2019
  #42
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konkon's Avatar
Noctambulant, Bushman, Brian & Dc_r - Even though you guys may have disagreements, I appreciate your input and willingness to get to the bottom of this issue.

In my particular case though, I am very limited by circumstances and budget and this is just one small part of my overall issue. I am just wondering how to make a decision at least an "acceptable" set of monitors to get some acceptable work done to send to some industry people on a very limited time frame and budget.

I am just not really sure whether to go big or small. I guess it's hard to come up with a concrete answer to this. I also can't afford the time or money to buy and try then buy and try again to make comparisons so need to take an educated guess on this.

There's no way of trying any of these where I live either other than buying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ak75 View Post
Hs8 is too big for your space. I have them and older yamaha msp5....5" bass...I make better choices with msp5 in my small space. I only check bass in hs8. I would say "5 monitor and sub is good way to go. Sub mostly off, just checking bass sometimes. Too much bass while mixing and your mids are not focused.
Thanks. I was thinking, too big or not, it's probably unnecessary. I am sort of glad to hear that because I can't really afford it anyway. I just need to make an educated guess as to what I CAN use that will be acceptable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by elegentdrum View Post
My nearfields are HS80M. My room is about 12' x 15' x 9'(sloped). Works out well for a rental house. The I think the yamaha line of speakers are great bang/buck. They dont flatter the sound, they make you fight for the mix like the old NS-10's, the corssover point is well done. Perfect for the cash. Full spectrum enough to not need subs. One EQ knob to match with the room. Decent mid-level stuff.

The only downside is they are not as easy to listen too for many hours vs. stuff that costs more. Have to draw the line somewhere.
Well the Yamaha stuff seems more affordable than a lot of those more expensive brands, most of which are simply out of my reach currently. It's more of a question of which size I should try to aim for I guess? Then again, people have even said JBL LSR305 is a good option and those are absolutely affordable. I am sure they have the same sort of limitations as the Yamaha HS5 though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethem View Post
@OP I also make music in a small room, I was not happy how my Dynaudio BM6a MK2 sounded in there. Long story short there was no bass at the listing position no matter what I tried. I decided to give a pair of Genelec 8010a's a try and the sound in my little to is now wonderful.

I have tight focused bass at the listening position and when I walk around the sound is balanced and equal.

I loved my BM6's but they were simply too large for the room both in terms of power and physical size.
Oh, interesting. Do you think the Genelec would be a better option than the Yamaha models?
Old 9th September 2019
  #43
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konkon's Avatar
I have also seen some Eve SC207 going cheap. They are still more than any of the Yamaha and out of my budget but damn, they are less than half the new price. I am wondering if I can find a way to stretch to those if they will be considerably better than any of the Yamaha options?!
Old 9th September 2019
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
I have also seen some Eve SC207 going cheap.
As a general thing, don’t buy used monitors unless you can audition them first or return them for a full refund if they are not right. People sometimes sell monitors because they know they have problems but still work.

Thanks for your further explanation of your project. Based on that, don’t let me complicate your original thinking. Buy some decent small monitors (JBL 305 seem to be a popular choice with some resale value), do your work, send it on and then assess where you are regarding your investment in audio.
Good luck!
Old 9th September 2019
  #45
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
As a general thing, don’t buy used monitors unless you can audition them first or return them for a full refund if they are not right. People sometimes sell monitors because they know they have problems but still work.

Thanks for your further explanation of your project. Based on that, don’t let me complicate your original thinking. Buy some decent small monitors (JBL 305 seem to be a popular choice with some resale value), do your work, send it on and then assess where you are regarding your investment in audio.
Good luck!
Alright. Thanks for the tip.

Sorry I had not explained in more detail. I had in another thread but that was about the main gear I am assembling.

The 305 is the absolute cheapest I can get hold of that people don't say is terrible, so yeah maybe that is a good idea!

Thanks a lot.
Old 9th September 2019
  #46
Deleted e09cd8e
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
You going somewhat raving bonkers isn’t something I have to deal with. Your anger is your problem. If this is your usual reaction when someone disagrees with you, think about seeking help.
I do understand your opinion (which you keep stating) and that your opinion is based on whatever individual experience you have.
I hope you understand the difference between a strong opinion and a provable fact. Or at least that other readers do.
I wasn’t angry. I just tend to be super dismissive and snappy on this site due to the constant barrage of misinformation and shilling. I just take offense to the notion of an objective, universal truth to this stuff in general and never mean my posts to be read as such overall. I do not mean that something is always true. I believe we are both right. I just prefer to do the bulk of the critical work on small monitors and then set the percussive levels, drum compression, and bus compression on something way ballsier (or bigger) than the HS8 while making sure it still can be heard on the smaller speaker. I’d take a KRK V8S4 or Quested V2108 instead for that to stick to 8” stuff but this is not the thread for that. I can do without the big monitors if I can car check but then of course it takes longer.
Old 9th September 2019
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted e09cd8e View Post
I wasn’t angry. I just tend to be super dismissive and snappy on this site due to the constant barrage of misinformation and shilling. I just take offense to the notion of an objective, universal truth to this stuff in general and never mean my posts to be read as such overall. I do not mean that something is always true. I believe we are both right. I just prefer to do the bulk of the critical work on small monitors and then set the percussive levels, drum compression, and bus compression on something way ballsier (or bigger) than the HS8 while making sure it still can be heard on the smaller speaker. I’d take a KRK V8S4 or Quested V2108 instead for that to stick to 8” stuff but this is not the thread for that. I can do without the big monitors if I can car check but then of course it takes longer.
That all makes sense. No harm, no foul.

I do have to congratulate you on penning one of my favorite all time bulging vein, spittle flying sentences...

“I don't give a flying **** about your Ayn Rand, all-caps audio gear objectivism.”

That’s a movie-quality keeper!
Old 9th September 2019
  #48
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konkon's Avatar
It seems that no matter what I researched, based on what I can actually afford to get at what price, it comes back to the same few models that I can get affordably.

However, turns out I can get Yamaha HS5, HS7, HS8 for almost the same price. I mean small difference in price, but negligible. If I go for one of these, assuming they're about the same price, would it be stupid not to just go for the HS8 regardless of room?

The fourth one it comes back to is the JBL LSR305 but I am concerned about lack of bass and noise issues that I have heard about considering they will be my ONLY monitors.

Any input? Thanks again guys.
Old 10th September 2019
  #49
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I don’t think I’ve ever heard any of the three Yamahas or the JBL 305. The specs indicate the 5” models from both manufacturers seem about equal in low frequency response. The JBLs might have more built in room correction EQ. If your content is not genre where extremely low frequency music or fx are critical, you might not need anything that only the 8” woofer could reproduce. My completely arbitrary choices, depending on genre, would be the JBL 5” or the Yamaha 8”. I’ve seen “noise” threads about a lot of monitors, but have only encountered it as noticeable in one sub (not from either of these companies).
I don’t think you can make a major mistake with either of these companies. They hang around because they offer affordable quality.
Old 10th September 2019
  #50
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
I don’t think I’ve ever heard any of the three Yamahas or the JBL 305. The specs indicate the 5” models from both manufacturers seem about equal in low frequency response. The JBLs might have more built in room correction EQ. If your content is not genre where extremely low frequency music or fx are critical, you might not need anything that only the 8” woofer could reproduce. My completely arbitrary choices, depending on genre, would be the JBL 5” or the Yamaha 8”. I’ve seen “noise” threads about a lot of monitors, but have only encountered it as noticeable in one sub (not from either of these companies).
I don’t think you can make a major mistake with either of these companies. They hang around because they offer affordable quality.
The JBL are far cheaper than any of the Yamaha's for me to get hold of. Although any are doable possibly.

Well it's fusion with a rock-ish sound. I am guessing you are talking about clubbing electronic stuff (whatever you call it) when you refer to extreme low frequency?

If it's not going to make a big difference then the JBL would save me a ton of money I could put into my recording gear.

Thanks for the tips so far.
Old 10th September 2019
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
If it's not going to make a big difference then the JBL would save me a ton of money I could put into my recording gear.
.
For the music you are mixing in an untreated room, yeah, get the JBLs and spend the savings on other gear or software.
Old 10th September 2019
  #52
Deleted e09cd8e
Guest
They're both fairly cheap. I'd much rather listen to the HS8 due to them sounding less boxy and more real world headroom but the JBL 305 v2 translates pretty well. It's all preference. JBL 305 v2 + some panels vs the HS8 untreated in a small room, I'd say go JBL + some treatment of the first reflection points and some base trapping. Especially if price is an issue. The JBL just lacks low end headroom and that waveguide makes everything sound huge.
Old 10th September 2019
  #53
Deleted e09cd8e
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
That all makes sense. No harm, no foul.

I do have to congratulate you on penning one of my favorite all time bulging vein, spittle flying sentences...

“I don't give a flying **** about your Ayn Rand, all-caps audio gear objectivism.”

That’s a movie-quality keeper!
Sorry I come across as a raging maniac sometimes. I just think the snobs, dentists dropping stacks on recording equipment, and cheapskates with Behringer gear they think sounds good but they're fighting it the whole time just haven't experienced the ability to just nail something on an Auratone 5C or Fostex 6301b and it just works everywhere. That there are modern small active ported monitors now that actually sound fairly normal but sacrifice some tightness is a big advancement. Some of them are cheap too. Tons of stuff that sounds good on massive monitors and massive hifis will collapse on smaller speakers. Getting stuff like sub sub heavy kicks to come out on blown car speakers is always a fun challenge with any gear and room.
Old 10th September 2019
  #54
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
Oh, interesting. Do you think the Genelec would be a better option than the Yamaha models?
I have not heard the Yamahas so I couldn't say, I'm sure they will be more than adequate for your music production needs. I took a look at the H range and if I were you I would get the H5's.

I think it's important to think about you desk, do you really want huge speakers on it. That was the main reason I went for the 8010as.
Old 10th September 2019
  #55
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
For the music you are mixing in an untreated room, yeah, get the JBLs and spend the savings on other gear or software.
Yeah this is what my own logic was telling me, though I am what you would call a "noob", so my logic is not necessarily based on extensive education regarding the subject, just what knowledge I could pick up within a matter of weeks.

By the way, I have actually treated the room as best I can. At least as much as I could afford to. It seems to have made a noticeable improvement when drums are played in the room. Far from adequate, yes, but better than it was.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted e09cd8e View Post
They're both fairly cheap. I'd much rather listen to the HS8 due to them sounding less boxy and more real world headroom but the JBL 305 v2 translates pretty well. It's all preference. JBL 305 v2 + some panels vs the HS8 untreated in a small room, I'd say go JBL + some treatment of the first reflection points and some base trapping. Especially if price is an issue. The JBL just lacks low end headroom and that waveguide makes everything sound huge.
Yeah, none of these models seem too crazy, but I can get the JBL far cheaper than the rest. By the way, I did treat the room a bit as I was saying above, so maybe I will be okay with the JBLs then, as you said.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethem View Post
I have not heard the Yamahas so I couldn't say, I'm sure they will be more than adequate for your music production needs. I took a look at the H range and if I were you I would get the H5's.

I think it's important to think about you desk, do you really want huge speakers on it. That was the main reason I went for the 8010as.
Thanks. Well if I am going for 5 inch regardless and it becomes an HS5 vs JBL battle, I can get the JBL for about half the price of the Yamaha, so maybe I should go with that. I am not convinced the Yamaha will be "double" better, if you know what I mean. I get the impression they're kinda close-ish, so not worth me paying double for 5-10% difference.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #56
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
Oh, interesting. Do you think the Genelec would be a better option than the Yamaha models?
I'm not show if they will sound better as thats subjective and Yamaha make great stuff across the board! the 8010a's will be a lot smaller than teh smallest Yamaha.

Like I said before i'm really happy with them and make a broard range of music. I still can't beleive they are so small!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #57
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethem View Post
I'm not show if they will sound better as thats subjective and Yamaha make great stuff across the board! the 8010a's will be a lot smaller than teh smallest Yamaha.

Like I said before i'm really happy with them and make a broard range of music. I still can't beleive they are so small!
Thanks for the reply. I ended up with HS7 as my mains and MSP5 as secondary monitors.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #58
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
Thanks for the reply. I ended up with HS7 as my mains and MSP5 as secondary monitors.
man this thread was funny to read ... you only wanted to know if the hs5 or hs7 fits your room and needs more ... and they all got crazy but never give an answer to the question

i bought the hs5 a few days ago, but i find a good deal for the hs7 ...so i'm considering shipping the hs5 back and get the hs7

any regrets getting the hs7? ....did you get the msp5 for cheap or why did you choose to get a secondary pair?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #59
I have a room that is only slightly larger and I have HS8's and they sound fantastic there. I do have Bass trapping on the rear wall corners floor to ceiling and front corners and they are positioned around 4" from the front wall and almost perpendicular to the front of the corner traps on the front wall. Just my 2 cents.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_r View Post
This is totally untrue. This is not a myth but is all about how sound waves get bounced around a small room... I would liken it to a very large light in a small room- the output of which is so high that you cannot control it...
I missed this when it was written. Your light analogy assumes that there is no dimmer on the lights (and no volume control on the monitors). Given the same listening volume and the same placement in the same room, various size speakers in the same product line from the same manufacturer will usually sound similar. The sound waves will get bounced around in almost exactly the same way by each of the speakers.

But I love your last line... “the output of which is so high that you cannot control it”. Isn’t that the point in bad science fiction films where the villain blows himself up with his super-powerful creation?
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