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Is mixing/mastering ITB or OTB determined by your stage of life?
Old 16th September 2019
  #391
Gear Addict
 

ITB makes recall 100% easier which is essential for underground music now where even if they purchase studio time, they're out of there in a few hours and the engineer at the studio probably hasn't even heard of the artists the artists being tracked wants to sound like so they get someone else to mix it. Physical releases are also essential. Why stick your stuff on spotify when you can get 300 CDs and move them at shows, various distros, and online? Many of these artists don't even want to be in some workout playlist. The artist is much more likely to recoup the cost of making the recording that way than through streaming revenue.

The plugins that resemble analog hardware make transitioning a breeze with proper gain staging. I don't even use a daw controller anymore because it was just an extra piece of hardware to operate that got in the way. I still miss outboard summers and being able to slam stuff like an analog console but time has moved on. DAWs have gotten better and the plugins that resemble analog hardware are very easy to operate. The better interfaces have gotten much, much better and beat the two channel converters from 15 years ago easily. A mixer can buy Logic or Reaper for practically nothing, get some nice cheap/free plugins that will eat the Slate/Waves/UAD stuff for breakfast, buy a high quality interface and some really good 8 channel stuff for a few thousand bucks, get a few really nice pres, a bunch of utility mics, a few nicer mics, and just get work done. If a band member lives far away, he can always get some cheap interface and di or play a midi kit into it. So many guys just refuse to gain stage properly itb so the records they record and work on all come out distorted, harsh, and small. Many still don't pull down the faders.

This is far better than the OTB stuff was for the type of music I record. Back in the day, even when I first started playing, that typically meant old digital consoles, pcb analog consoles, mackie boards, ADATs, Portastudios, and other types of mediocre or problematic junk where you would be lucky to get a Yamaha O2R. Pro Tools rigs were expensive. None of the artists could afford anything other than the cheapest studios. Good interfaces and DAWs are far better and more flexible than that. I sold off my O1V, D-Box, two channel converters, various interfaces, pci cards, and Tascam stuff for easy to use, easy to expand, super flexible MOTU AVB stuff and couldn't be happier. I miss nothing except for live and practice space use.
Old 16th September 2019
  #392
Quote:
Originally Posted by string6theory View Post

I've also found the ergonomics of OTB (twisting knobs and moving sliders, etc) to be much, much preferable to the ITB mousing (point & click) paradigm. .
I agree and I think there's a huge difference when you can use two hands at a time rather than just one.


I've spent a lot of time remapping USB devices so that compressors and EQs always layout the same regardless of the designer. I've also got the same box mapped to control faders and I've remapped my computer keyboard to control memory locations so that I never have to scroll.

Before this, I found ITB much harder.
Old 16th September 2019
  #393
Here for the gear
 

Yes and Prices will fall as the used high end gear hits the market when they start retiring and dying

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoskit View Post
Age of life or just age ?

eg will otb die out with aging users or will younger folks move to it ?

Music genre makes a difference too, imho
Old 16th September 2019
  #394
People dont trust their ears.
Because our ears are so good in adapting and can easily get fooled.

Thats why many mixing engineers develop "standards" over the years.
They make choices because they are approved. Even Pro engineers do that.
That makes decisions much easier and faster.

IMO thats quite often the reason for choosing a certain hardware, reaching for that "Bass Drum EQ", using that Lexicon 480L etc etc...

I heard ITB mixes that sounded super analog and analog mixes that sounded harsh/cold/digital.
For me it really comes down to the engineers experience, his "standards".
No matter if ITB or OTB.
If you got a certain sound/ image in your head, than go ahead and "trust your ears"
Old 16th September 2019
  #395
Here for the gear
So I started completely in the box when it wasn't that great because I couldn't afford the hardware. I'd do my demos and some basic work at home and then go to my friend's (professional) studio for the real deal.

About 8 years into my adventure (my late 20s) I was working a good job and playing a decent amount (I somehow wrangled a creative job from the road whilst touring 2-3 days a week). I was single so a lot of that money started going towards gear. First a few synths and then some crucial fx pieces (re-201) and then some decent but not bank-breaking preamps (Black Lion 173s, etc). Digi002 with 2 channels of apogee in was a game-changer and then I started systematically upgrading and purchasing. I did that until I got married and we started having kids, and now I'll trade design work for hardware or sell a piece I'm not using, etc.

I mostly work in the box, but I have the hardware for the magic things they do. One of my go-to pieces on almost every track is a Gates SA-28. Just something magic that it does that I haven't found a plugin for. I still think my real VocalStressors are better than the +10db plugin, but it's a very good approximation. The H3000 Factory plugin lacks the two primary algorithms I love in it - crystal echoes and canyon.

Maybe it's the AD/DA and the transformers doing what they do, but there's still something special about the hardware. I'm not mixing on a big console or anything, so this hardware is often what little I can do to spice it up. I've got a Calrec sidecar that I use for tracking and will eventually figure out how to route through it for my A-E sub mixes before summing.

So yes, totally dependent on phase in life and the other things I was doing.
Old 16th September 2019
  #396
Gear Nut
 

I guess if one is "Old School" and mixing OTB and in their 90's pretty soon they'll be ITB.
Old 16th September 2019
  #397
Gear Addict
 
Tousana's Avatar
 

I've been doing this for about 36yrs. and do a hybrid thing. Totally in the box, but summing to analog board. Then out through a nice 2 bus chain and print back into the box. Summing to the console is no big deal, when recalling a mix just have a good source for a tone to get the faders leveled out and you're good to go. Sometimes I like to send to outboard when necessary, like the EMT Gold Foil Reverb or the RE201 Space Echo, but always printing the results with the mix. Plugins have gotten much better, but some things only come close. Most of my hardware is used only to track. I do it this way not because of age, but because there is less and less time given to mix (cost issue), but the stages of analog keep me happy.
Old 16th September 2019
  #398
Gear Nut
 

I started in the early 90's and scored lots of analog rack stuff and still use it. It just sounds and feels better. So yep the older you are the more analog you are in my opinion.
Old 16th September 2019
  #399
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robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkuchar View Post
I started in the early 90's and scored lots of analog rack stuff and still use it. It just sounds and feels better. So yep the older you are the more analog you are in my opinion.
Well, given the age-related onset of arthritis, I sure ain't more "digital" as I get older!
Old 16th September 2019
  #400
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Well, given the age-related onset of arthritis, I sure ain't more "digital" as I get older!
I'm lucky enough to have mostly dodged arthritis so far, but I swear I'm gonna catch it from computer mice.
Old 16th September 2019
  #401
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tymish's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I'm lucky enough to have mostly dodged arthritis so far, but I swear I'm gonna catch it from computer mice.
Unfortunately carpal tunnel syndrome and bad elbow tendonitis have kept my guitars gathering dust a lot for the good part of 7 years now. Arrgh! Guess my aggressive playing style had some drawbacks after time, but tell that to a 20 year old rocker lol... Sure, I can do the same runs and bends on my acoustic, no problem! But I do think my most recent tendon issues in my right elbow and hand are mouse related. Bought a much bigger and semi sideways mouse to try and alleviate iut. I have kinda big hands, most mice are way too small.
Old 16th September 2019
  #402
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tymish View Post
Unfortunately carpal tunnel syndrome and bad elbow tendonitis have kept my guitars gathering dust a lot for the good part of 7 years now.
Interesting. I get a bit of carpal tunnel from DAW editing, and schlepping my wife's farmers' market crap is tough on my elbows. Playing guitar -- acoustic and aggressively -- actually seems to help both of those things. So does staying away from red wine, which I love except for the inflammation it causes.
Old 16th September 2019
  #403
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tymish's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Interesting. I get a bit of carpal tunnel from DAW editing, and schlepping my wife's farmers' market crap is tough on my elbows. Playing guitar -- acoustic and aggressively -- actually seems to help both of those things. So does staying away from red wine, which I love except for the inflammation it causes.
One of my orthos thinks it's party to mostly genetic. He's about 80 now. He says some folks were born with 50,000 mile tires and some with 30,000.. I figure maybe i got the lower mileage ones, and of course used up tread doing doughnuts and stuff. My muscles and bones are stronger than their connectors. Next time the carpal flares up it's time for the knife. Hard to work never mind play when you can't feel your fingers. Doc won't shoot me with any more corticos
Old 16th September 2019
  #404
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robert82's Avatar
This arm rest has helped a lot.
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Old 16th September 2019
  #405
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tymish's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
This arm rest has helped a lot.
Interesting, thanks. Check out the Autley vertical mouse. Puts the wrist in a much more comfortable rotation without being too odd to use. especially when mixing ITB which all those tiny repetitive tweaky motions for plugins really seem to cause me some issues.
Old 16th September 2019
  #406
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robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tymish View Post
. . . . especially when mixing ITB which all those tiny repetitive tweaky motions for plugins really seem to cause me some issues.
So this thread is about ITB/OTB vis. age/stage of life. I think there is still room to create a crossover hardware piece that allows us to do those tweaks on knobs that are, like, 3.5 pixels across on the computer screen. Some kind of hybrid interface.

Or maybe we'll all just go the way of the dinosaur . . .I swear, kids have evolved a new form of opposing thumb - the way they text, hell, I can't do that!
Old 16th September 2019
  #407
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tymish's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
So this thread is about ITB/OTB vis. age/stage of life. I think there is still room to create a crossover hardware piece that allows us to do those tweaks on knobs that are, like, 3.5 pixels across on the computer screen. Some kind of hybrid interface.

Or maybe we'll all just go the way of the dinosaur . . .I swear, kids have evolved a new form of opposing thumb - the way they text, hell, I can't do that!
Holy moly! Did we accidentally come back around to the question in the post? Huzzah! I'm not quite at AARP yet but my body has some complaints and I'm starting to get their junk mail lol. I seriously don't know how folks manage to type so quickly on a smart phone screen. My fat fingers cause so many typos i either spend 3x the time fixing something or send a completely auto-spellchecked and unintelligible text.

As I answered earlier I'm ITB because of budget. I'm not doing music production for a living anymore so this is for my own stuff. Would I like a nice console etc? Yep, i do miss the tactile way of tweaking. I always found sounds so much faster. I think because my tech brain didn't get enough time to get in the way of my art/music brain. Turn highs knob up and down till you hear it, done. ITB it's so slow to change that parameter whatever the UI and somehow by the time I get close my mind starts going.. maybe parametric? What Q? Different plug in? Change center freq? ho I should have moved that snare hit 10 samples to the left.. where was i?

OTOH I can stop somewhere in a project. Not have time for weeks to look at it. Sit down open it and be right where I left off.
Old 16th September 2019
  #408
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
So does staying away from red wine, which I love except for the inflammation it causes.
Most modern "progressive" diseases are due to the consumption of carbohydrates, CVD, T2 diabetes, auto-immune issues such as arthritis, high cholesterol. Stop eating carbs (all carbs including wheat etc) and your supposedly age-related health issues will disappear within 6 months. You will return to your natural weight, blood pressure will normalise - type 2 diabetes will go into regression. Chuck your meds - you won't need them. Stick to good quality fatty cuts of grass fed meat and leafy green veg (no root veg) all cooked in good quality butter and plenty of salt (a must). Modern fruit is just a fructose bomb which will give you a fatty liver - you don't need fruit - green veg has all the vitamin C etc you require. Lookup Ketogenic diets - the immediate health benefits from following such a diet are simply staggering. You'll be able to enjoy red wine on a Keto diet - without side effects. The best bit about a Keto diet is you only need to eat once a day once you're adapted, as you'll never feel hunger - more time for music!
Old 16th September 2019
  #409
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robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Playing guitar -- acoustic and aggressively -- actually seems to help both of those things.
Barre chords are killing me these days.
Old 16th September 2019
  #410
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robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scragend View Post
Lookup Ketogenic diets - . . .
I thought religion was off limits here . . . .

Old 16th September 2019
  #411
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
I thought religion was off limits here . . . .

I hear you brother! the thing is, keto has made such a profound change to my health - and that of two other people I know who, like me, were heading for early graves - to the point I haven't felt healthier since I was 20 - and my blood stats are now that of a 25 year old (I'm nearly 60). The rubbish carb-laden food big-industry plies us with is killing us - roughly 50% of the population get away with it (less sensitivity to carbs) lucky them - for the rest of us, someone has to spread the word - big phama won't, they're making billions off treating the symptoms of metabolic disorders caused by poisonous carbs and doctors just toe the line. So sorry for preaching, but you can understand why I'm so evangelical! If I can help just one person (even better, a fellow muso) it's worth it! This is kind of related to stages of life and I want to stay out the box for a while yet! (I'll shut up now!!)
Old 16th September 2019
  #412
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougS View Post
No, the analogy of pies for mix revisions fails because mixes can be revised after their completed and pies cant. Me thinks that's where we get the term - "its baked in."


not only that, but the whole "pie" doesn't usually get "sent back" - it get gets "eaten" - which is to say it gets listened to and enjoyed each time. And the recall is requests for the next pie. A little more reverb on the backing vocals, fade the guitar solo down a little faster. They are not 'rejecting' your pie, they making suggestions for improvements.
Old 17th September 2019
  #413
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Blaine Misner's Avatar
 

i know there is a thread on here from a few years ago that asked how old people were...
... but how old are you guys?

i'm 35 and suspect younger than a lot of the cats chiming in, but i've been working in a commercial studio for almost 14 years. i think its more experience than age... ive used the stuff. i know what the stuff sounds like. it's up to my judgement to pick what is the most appropriate.

... also carpal tunnel from editing is no joke, i haven't played the guitar in about a year due to the pain and frustration...

Last edited by Blaine Misner; 17th September 2019 at 12:47 AM.. Reason: grammar
Old 17th September 2019
  #414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I'm lucky enough to have mostly dodged arthritis so far, but I swear I'm gonna catch it from computer mice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tymish View Post
Unfortunately carpal tunnel syndrome and bad elbow tendonitis have kept my guitars gathering dust a lot for the good part of 7 years now. Arrgh! Guess my aggressive playing style had some drawbacks after time, but tell that to a 20 year old rocker lol... Sure, I can do the same runs and bends on my acoustic, no problem! But I do think my most recent tendon issues in my right elbow and hand are mouse related. Bought a much bigger and semi sideways mouse to try and alleviate iut. I have kinda big hands, most mice are way too small.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tymish View Post
Interesting, thanks. Check out the Autley vertical mouse. Puts the wrist in a much more comfortable rotation without being too odd to use. especially when mixing ITB which all those tiny repetitive tweaky motions for plugins really seem to cause me some issues.
I was going to suggest a vertical mouse (I personally use the Logitech ones, which I find suit my hand perfectly).
Old 17th September 2019
  #415
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I was going to suggest a vertical mouse (I personally use the Logitech ones, which I find suit my hand perfectly).
I like those, and also the big Kensington trackball. I just need to break the habit of stretching my thumb out from the trackball to hit stuff on the keyboard. Nobody needs to be in that much of a hurry.
Old 17th September 2019
  #416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I like those, and also the big Kensington trackball. I just need to break the habit of stretching my thumb out from the trackball to hit stuff on the keyboard. Nobody needs to be in that much of a hurry.
I’ve never got on with trackballs (they tense my whole arm - tennis elbow inducing?) but I know many love them. I’m also pretty good st not touching the mouse for longer periods!
Old 17th September 2019
  #417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian M. Boykin View Post
346,000 streams on Spotify is $1373.62. If it was 1990 and all those streams equated to people buying the album for the one song, gross would be $3,456,540. That’s at $9.99 a CD. According to an article I read artists kept about 11% of that after label, studio, etc, but still $380,219.14. Now this is assuming everyone of those streams was someone different and that each of them would have bought the album. You also have to consider if it was 1990 she might not ever get her stuff out and the $1373.62 she’s made from streaming might not have been made at all.
That's 346,000 listens. in 1990, one single play on a radio station would have gotten three times as many listens and the payment would have been a fraction of a penny.

There's no way a single listen equates to purchase of a single, much less an album.
Old 17th September 2019
  #418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
There's no way a single listen equates to purchase of a single, much less an album.
I agree - but in terms of chart position, it’s something like 50 listens = 1 sale. Which is obviously daft too, since no one listens to a new purchase 50 times either (or at least rarely!).

Which I guess will become irrelevant once there are no physical singles but still...
Old 17th September 2019
  #419
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Brian M. Boykin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
That's 346,000 listens. in 1990, one single play on a radio station would have gotten three times as many listens and the payment would have been a fraction of a penny.

There's no way a single listen equates to purchase of a single, much less an album.
Just trying to put the numbers into perspective. You have a perspective now correct? Most people have no perspective and just accept the new reality. As someone trying to attract business and set an hourly rate vs a percentage of sales, it’s very bleak for both the small studio and the no name band. I don’t think that’s anything new. I represent maybe the 1st generation of musicians that started building DAW based home studios in the late 1990’s and early 2000’s. I’m nearing the end of my “real job” and entertaining a small studio for local bands to get their music down. I’m developing a business model based on the current market. It’s not to promising.

Now, I listen to the local radio station in my car which plays local music. Local bands are my potential clients anyways. I gave up on stations in San Antonio long ago. Austin has some better stations that I pick up on random days but I rarely bother to tune in. I stream for casual listening in the house. Most everyone I know, and I’m 45, is streaming. My children definitely stream and they range from 7 to 22. I don’t think streaming is going away and I don’t want it to, but I do feel it needs to be revamped so bands can actually make real money off half a million streams.

Last, I’m not invested in recording financially so that I have to be successful. I can make business decisions based on preference and not on efficiency or grabbing the biggest part of the market I can. I like it that way. I’ve already lost some potential clients because I don’t run Protools or have racks full of 1176’s and La2a’s. I’ve been listening very closely to the apex pros on this thread, and recall matters. I’d be hard pressed to push out 3 mixes in a day with my set up being OTB. That would be a long day and assuming I nailed the mixes. Push them back to me and I’m screwed. No doubt. Not even gonna argue I wouldn't be. I’m not sure I’d enjoy that kind of pressure anyways. And I f-ing excel under pressure in my real job. It’s where I want to be when I go to work.

Sorry for the ramble. This thread has been all over the place and I just dumped.
Old 17th September 2019
  #420
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"So bye bye American Pie"
Chris
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