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Easy to use hardware effects like Midiverb II
Old 19th August 2019
  #31
Awesome replies!

I have the Dim D on my UAD and have used it for years, but not in quite awhile.

I was almost convinced on the TC M350. Its layout, workflow, ease of use would be absolutely perfect for me. I then listened to a good few demos on Youtube and as James Lehmann mentioned, it was very plain and boring. I was pretty disappointed by this, but nothing stood out as being exciting at all, about it.

I was looking into something with more creative excitement. It was mentioned to look into the Deltalabs Effectron II and in looking up videos on that, THIS unit certainly excited me. The flanger, chorus, doubler and echos were perfect at adding movement and variation to the inputted signal and the infinite repeat (sampler) mode was really sweet too. I think if I am going to get any effects unit, it would have be something along these lines. There are no Effectron II on Ebay, or Reverb at the moment and in reading forum posts on it, it is only rated for -10, so apparently it is a real pain in the ass to get working on +4 systems, as it clips so quickly and easily?
Old 19th August 2019
  #32
Lives for gear
Not high end, but the old Electrix units like Mo-Fx are easy to use.
Old 19th August 2019
  #33
Lives for gear
 
James Lehmann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantankerous View Post
I am wanting to add another effects unit to my rack, but am concerned about which to get, as I need another that is super simple to use, pretty much preset based and without many parameters to worry about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantankerous View Post
I was almost convinced on the TC M350. Its layout, workflow, ease of use would be absolutely perfect for me. I then listened to a good few demos on Youtube and as James Lehmann mentioned, it was very plain and boring. I was pretty disappointed by this, but nothing stood out as being exciting at all, about it.
So... "simple to use", "preset-based", "few parameters" and "exciting"?

You may struggle to fulfil all those criteria in one unit.

If you want really 'exciting' you need an Eventide Eclipse but that thing gave me conniptions in terms of the dizzying number of parameters and its menu-driven UI.

Is it a multi-FX you want? Or just reverb or just delay? This might help narrow it down.

Another unit I thoughts of was the old Roland DEP-5 - a bit noisy but a nice old-school Roland sound with knobs for all parameters.
Old 19th August 2019
  #34
Ya, I had a feeling I was causing more trouble then I need too!

Ideally, that is exactly what I would want, but I realize I am likely not going to find it, so with that said, I am going to have to make a compromise and get the middle ground, where cost, size and parameters are a nice balance.

I do have some very good models suggested and I can't thank everyone enough, for their time and help through all this. You have all been very patient.
Old 21st August 2019
  #35
I think I have narrowed it down. Since I made things much more difficult then I thought they would become, I figured I would get a unit that offered more, even if I do have to deal with some programming. I will just 'try' to limit myself from going down a rabbit hole while using it. I didn't want to sacrifice too much on sound and effect types, just for ease... so...

Alesis Quadraverb Plus, or Yamaha SPX990 are my choices.
Old 21st August 2019
  #36
DEMETER Spring Reverb! Only has one setting (basically) and sounds great on EVERYTHING!
Old 21st August 2019
  #37
Interesting! Another I have never heard of! I was wanting more than just reverbs, but am going to check it out anyways, as I am curious!

Thanks for sharing!
Old 22nd August 2019
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantankerous View Post
I think I have narrowed it down. Since I made things much more difficult then I thought they would become, I figured I would get a unit that offered more, even if I do have to deal with some programming. I will just 'try' to limit myself from going down a rabbit hole while using it. I didn't want to sacrifice too much on sound and effect types, just for ease... so...

Alesis Quadraverb Plus, or Yamaha SPX990 are my choices.
A few things to keep in mind:

The QuadraVerb Plus is a true multi-effects unit, with up to 4 simultaneous effects possible (depending upon configuration), while the SPX990 is a "multi-effect" unit, with many different types of effects, but only one available at a time. On the SPX990, you can use EQ, compression or a "Harmonic Driver" before and/or after your main effect, but your main effect is either delay, reverb or some type of modulation--but only one.

As with the Alesis and any other type of digital outboard gear, using EQ or compression in-line in a digital effects box can be problematic. If your mix setting on the box is 100% wet, then you get all the EQ and/or compression you're trying to get. But if you roll back the mix because you don't want a 100% wet reverb or delay/flanger/etc. signal (which you're using as part of the effect), you lose much of your EQ and/or compression--and you introduce phasing issues.

I've always liked the sound of the Yamaha SPX reverbs, but some people think they tend sound a bit "metallic". (I think it's part of their charm!) That may be exactly what you're going for (or not!), but you won't really know until you hook it all up...and by then, you've probably already bought the box, so....

Finally, the SPX990 uses balanced XLR or TRS connections; the QuadraVerb uses standard, 1/4" connections.

All that said, I still think the Yamaha would add a nice character to your sound, and move you a bit further away from the "Alesis" sound. (There's nothing wrong with the "Alesis" sound, but sometimes it's nice to hear how other effects boxes sound.) Of course, there's still the new, dual-effect, tc electronic box I mentioned earlier (the M-ONE XL), which can do most of what the Alesis does, and is designed for live use, with a minimum of fuss in dialing in the effects you want.

Steve
Old 22nd August 2019
  #39
Thank you so much!

You have been an invaluable help throughout this thread, really, I am extremely grateful and appreciative of your help and support through this.

Some very good info and advice to keep in mind, in terms of how the boxes operate. I am very glad to have this knowledge, as I wasn't actually aware of those details and they change things a lot.

From what it sounds like, the Yamaha box may be the way to go. It was actually the way I was leaning anyways, but with you mentioning it would be a different sound that I am currently getting, while still having character, it seems exciting. I have no clue if this point is true, but perhaps the Yamaha box will be easier to use, as it is only one effect at a time, and not multiple, like the Alesis? Is this true? If so, that would be a bonus, as the entire point of this thread was to get a good unit, that was quick and easy to use, while not being buried in parameters that would stress me out.

I was going to get an SPX90, or 90 II, but I hear they are very prone to failure, due to shoddy power supply design, which the SPX990 apparently doesn't have, so that is why I am leaning that way.

Would you say the Yamaha box is hard/slow to work with?

Thanks again for mentioning the M-One XL, as I had actually missed that! I looked into the TC M350 which looked perfect for me, in terms of how it operates, but seemed very boring, bland and not creative/inspiring at all. I wanted something with a bit more oomph, character and excitement.

Sorry to keep rambling here. You mentioned the Yamaha box is balanced, with TRS connectors. Can I still used unbalanced, Mogami cables, or would that be a problem?

Thanks again for all your help, you are very patient and kind.
Old 22nd August 2019
  #40
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicalnyc View Post
Roland SDD-320 Dimension D
Dunno about your country but that is one of the hardest to find and most expensive fx units...
Old 22nd August 2019
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantankerous View Post
Thank you so much!

You have been an invaluable help throughout this thread, really, I am extremely grateful and appreciative of your help and support through this.

Some very good info and advice to keep in mind, in terms of how the boxes operate. I am very glad to have this knowledge, as I wasn't actually aware of those details and they change things a lot.

From what it sounds like, the Yamaha box may be the way to go. It was actually the way I was leaning anyways, but with you mentioning it would be a different sound that I am currently getting, while still having character, it seems exciting. I have no clue if this point is true, but perhaps the Yamaha box will be easier to use, as it is only one effect at a time, and not multiple, like the Alesis? Is this true? If so, that would be a bonus, as the entire point of this thread was to get a good unit, that was quick and easy to use, while not being buried in parameters that would stress me out.

I was going to get an SPX90, or 90 II, but I hear they are very prone to failure, due to shoddy power supply design, which the SPX990 apparently doesn't have, so that is why I am leaning that way.

Would you say the Yamaha box is hard/slow to work with?

Thanks again for mentioning the M-One XL, as I had actually missed that! I looked into the TC M350 which looked perfect for me, in terms of how it operates, but seemed very boring, bland and not creative/inspiring at all. I wanted something with a bit more oomph, character and excitement.

Sorry to keep rambling here. You mentioned the Yamaha box is balanced, with TRS connectors. Can I still used unbalanced, Mogami cables, or would that be a problem?

Thanks again for all your help, you are very patient and kind.
No worries, my friend--I like to help!

Even though it will operate at +4 dBU or -20 dBV, the Yamaha is really made for "semi-pro" use, so you'd want to convert your Mogami cables to TRS (if they're 1/4"). That's not ideal, since you don't gain the noise-reduction benefits of a "balanced" cable, but it'll work.

As I mentioned previously, the Yamaha box is a bit "different" in the way it does things, but it's not difficult to use. To me, it just wasn't as intuitive as some of the other boxes I'd used back then. But everything is clearly laid out on the SPX, and since it only does one effect at a time (more on that in a second), you don't have too much "menu-diving" from the front panel. You may not have to do any at all, if you're satisfied with the presets, but even if you want to tweak a bit, I doubt you'd get lost inside the box.

Let me clarify something I mentioned about the 990 earlier. Yes, the SPX is one effect at a time (if you don't count the EQ/compression before and/or after that one effect), and the effects aren't quite the same as what the Alesis offers, but there are a few "dual-effect" programs, such as "Chorus + Reverb" or a dual-delay or dual-reverb program. I'd forgotten about these, because they weren't terribly useful. Here's why: They use a mono input (so they sum whatever you're running into the box into mono before processing it), and the options for the individual effects aren't as extensive as the "full" version of those effects, elsewhere in the box. So while a "dual-reverb" effect sounds interesting in theory, each reverb has a mono audio input source; you don't have quite the depth and breadth of control you do with the reverb programs otherwise (and they're quite deep on their own!); you have limited control over the order of the effects; and the output audio is matrixed back in with the input audio to create a "stereo" effect sound at the output.

Basically, the "dual-effect" programs on the SPX 990 work best in a live audio setting where you can send individual mono audio signals to the left and right audio inputs, where you'll process them separately before bringing them back into a mix.

Have you considered the SPX 1000? As the 990's big brother, it does what the 990 does--but it does it a bit better and easier. Gone are the TRS or XLR audio inputs and outputs--you just use standard, 1/4" connectors (so your Mogami stuff would be fine). It can still operate at +4 if you want, however. It has digital audio inputs and a couple more types of effects (including "distortion"), though the dual-effect programs have the same limitations as the SPX 990's programs.

If you want to check out the SPX 990 a bit more, I'd suggest combing through the manual: http://www.easdaleislandhall.org/spx990.pdf

Here's the SPX 1000's manual, just in case you want to check it out: http://www.nordicsales.dk/imgdb/docs/SPX1000_965.pdf

If you're used to the MIDIVerb II's sound, then you're used to "matrixed" audio, where the audio inputs are summed before an effect is applied, and the original audio is mixed back in a bit, to simulate a stereo effect for the reverbs or modulation effects. The SPX series isn't really very different, except that you might find yourself using the left input for one effect, and the right input for another. That's after the inputs were summed for the EQ/compression at the input. I thought about this a bit more for what you'd planned to do, and I'm not sure this would give you the type of sound--let alone control over the sound--that you want.

The QuadraVerb Plus also has matrixed audio; all semi-pro (and many "pro") boxes from the late '80s/early '90s did, since A/D converters weren't cheap back then.

Alesis QuadraVerb Plus: http://www.plzi.com/aanta/manuals/qu...ual___v1.0.pdf

If you're really concerned about the best audio you can get from an outboard digital effects box, The M-ONE XL has balanced XLR audio inputs and outputs, digital S/PDIF audio in and out, and independent A/D converters, which keeps your audio from being matrixed for processing. It's a dual-effects box, but the effects it offers seem to be ready to go right out of the box, with little tweaking necessary.

SOS review of the M-ONE XL: https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews...tronic-mone-xl

M-ONE XL manual: http://cdn-downloads.tcelectronic.co...al_english.pdf

Of course, you could just as easily say sod it all! and grab a MIDIVerb 4. With its standard, unbalanced 1/4" inputs and outputs, its limited number of adjustable parameters and its dual- or triple-effect programs, you might get everything you want, all in one box. You might even grab two, since they're very cheap on the used market. (You could buy almost 5 of them for the price of one new M-ONE XL.)

Alesis MIDIVerb 4 page: https://www.alesis.com/products/legacy/midiverb4

I know this was a lot, and it may not quite have been what you wanted to hear, but I wanted to make sure you had enough information to make an informed decision. I hope this helped.

Steve
Old 22nd August 2019
  #42
Lives for gear
 

Quadraverb plus is excellent!
The menus aren't too deep to dive. And it offers all of the 'standard' efx you expect from a multifx unit.
Old 22nd August 2019
  #43
Lives for gear
 

I love the midiverb II for the same reason...enough to get more. Like the flanger alot to for some reason.

Anyway if you want simple you could maybe look into some guitar pedals too....lots of them have on/off and just 1/2 knobs...often pretty cheap too. I have a similar thing going on where I build "signal chains" for my synths plugging direct in and just leave them. Plus for not to much you can try out a whole bunch if different fx and resell/return if you dont like them.

Also lexicon reflex is pretty dope too. Not midiverb simple but pretty simple.
Old 22nd August 2019
  #44
Great read ShadowsOfLife, thank you!

Thanks for clarifying how the SPX works. To be honest, I am not too fussed about its limitations, as that is actually desirable for me. One effect at a time, or combo effects is fine as well. For the kind of music I do (early 90's rave/Jungle), it was all about working with what you had and getting the most from the least. That is why I am trying to source gear that would have actually been around and used at that time, as opposed to newer stuff. With that being said, I am actually not going after the 'best audio' I can get. It is actually why I am hesitant on getting brand new boxes, as they may be too clean and crisp for my liking. Considering all my synths are mid 90's based and the Midiverb II is late 80's based, that is the actual sound I am going for. Lower resolution, slightly noisy, darker, etc. I think 16bit convertors, with 44.1khz and less is perfect. 24bit, 128x oversampling, 96khz will likey stand out too much in the mix, against everything else that is much lower in quality.

I am quite happy with what the Midiverb II does to my pads, etc, so if this 'matrixed' sound is suppose to be a problem, I am ok with that! If other boxes work the same, that is great too, as then the sound will be as expected and uniform!

In regards to my unbalanced Mogami cables, I was thinking of just sticking with those, even if it isn't technically 'as good', sound quality wise. The outputs of my synths are unbalanced anyways, so I see no benefit of going unbalanced into balanced. With a high quality cable such as Mogami being used and at only 3ft in length, I shouldn't have a problem right, unless there is something else I am missing outside of 'possible extra noise' being heard?

I have not looked into the SPX 1000, from reading quickly last night, It seemed the 990 was actually better in some regards? I will definitely look into the 1000 though, to see what I can come up with!

So many decisions, but I know with all this help, I will make the best one possible and have a unit that I can enjoy, for years to come!

Thanks so much again for all your time and efforts ShadowsOfLife (and everyone!)
Old 23rd August 2019
  #45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantankerous View Post
Great read ShadowsOfLife, thank you!

Thanks for clarifying how the SPX works. To be honest, I am not too fussed about its limitations, as that is actually desirable for me. One effect at a time, or combo effects is fine as well. For the kind of music I do (early 90's rave/Jungle), it was all about working with what you had and getting the most from the least. That is why I am trying to source gear that would have actually been around and used at that time, as opposed to newer stuff. With that being said, I am actually not going after the 'best audio' I can get. It is actually why I am hesitant on getting brand new boxes, as they may be too clean and crisp for my liking. Considering all my synths are mid 90's based and the Midiverb II is late 80's based, that is the actual sound I am going for. Lower resolution, slightly noisy, darker, etc. I think 16bit convertors, with 44.1khz and less is perfect. 24bit, 128x oversampling, 96khz will likey stand out too much in the mix, against everything else that is much lower in quality.

I am quite happy with what the Midiverb II does to my pads, etc, so if this 'matrixed' sound is suppose to be a problem, I am ok with that! If other boxes work the same, that is great too, as then the sound will be as expected and uniform!

In regards to my unbalanced Mogami cables, I was thinking of just sticking with those, even if it isn't technically 'as good', sound quality wise. The outputs of my synths are unbalanced anyways, so I see no benefit of going unbalanced into balanced. With a high quality cable such as Mogami being used and at only 3ft in length, I shouldn't have a problem right, unless there is something else I am missing outside of 'possible extra noise' being heard?

I have not looked into the SPX 1000, from reading quickly last night, It seemed the 990 was actually better in some regards? I will definitely look into the 1000 though, to see what I can come up with!

So many decisions, but I know with all this help, I will make the best one possible and have a unit that I can enjoy, for years to come!

Thanks so much again for all your time and efforts ShadowsOfLife (and everyone!)
I'm glad this is helping you narrow down your choices!

That said, I'm not sure the 990 was "better" in some regards than the 1000. Are there specific differences or issues you're thinking of? Remember, it's the SPX 990 which has the balanced audio inputs and outputs; the 1000 has the standard, unbalanced audio inputs and outputs. While balanced audio inputs and outputs are nice in a studio, they won't help you in your situation. For your setup, the SPX 1000's standard, unbalanced audio inputs would interface quickly and easily with your existing Mogami cables; you wouldn't need to get adapters or deal with connection issues, and you could use the cables you already have. With the SPX 990, you'd need to convert the Mogami cables from your synths to the SPX 990 into balanced audio cables (for the inputs to the box), and then adapt other cables to take the balanced audio from the SPX 990 to your mixer (or wherever you're sending it).

Hope that helps!

Steve
Old 23rd August 2019
  #46
Yes, things are definitely becoming easier for me!

I just went again and looked at the difference between the 990 and the 1000 and besides it being odd that the lower model had the balanced inputs and I have no clue why that is, it was mentioned that the 990 has more memory slots and also has the memory card slot. Besides that, is there any other differences? Does the 990 have any programs/presets/effects that the 1000 doesn't, or are they literally the same in that regard, with the 1000 having even more?

I just want to make sure I know what I am missing out on, if anything, with the 1000. I just never heard of the 1000 mentioned much, it seems to be the 90, 90 II and 990 mentioned all the time. I believe the 1000 is older and the 990 is actually an improved version of that? I don't get their descending numbering scheme, for later models.

Thanks so much again for all your help.
Old 23rd August 2019
  #47
Lives for gear
If you want a wide selection of easy to use effect. Get a reamp box and use stomp box's. Lots of those on the market to pick from.
Old 23rd August 2019
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantankerous View Post
Yes, things are definitely becoming easier for me!

I just went again and looked at the difference between the 990 and the 1000 and besides it being odd that the lower model had the balanced inputs and I have no clue why that is, it was mentioned that the 990 has more memory slots and also has the memory card slot. Besides that, is there any other differences? Does the 990 have any programs/presets/effects that the 1000 doesn't, or are they literally the same in that regard, with the 1000 having even more?

I just want to make sure I know what I am missing out on, if anything, with the 1000. I just never heard of the 1000 mentioned much, it seems to be the 90, 90 II and 990 mentioned all the time. I believe the 1000 is older and the 990 is actually an improved version of that? I don't get their descending numbering scheme, for later models.

Thanks so much again for all your help.
You might want to compare the list of effects in the .PDFs I've linked here; both lists are in the Table of Contents, right at the beginning of the .PDF. The SPX 1000 has more different types of effects than the 990, including things like "distortion", panning, "freeze" reverbs and more. Of course, I can't say if any of those would be of any interest to you, but they're there, in addition to the same basic reverbs, delays and modulation effects the 990 has. Also, in some cases, the algorithms for the reverbs and the pitch change effects in the 1000 were "improved" somewhat over what was in the 990. (From what I read, they were tweaked a bit by UK/US programmers for those markets, instead of Yamaha's Japanese programmers.) Again, whether that's the sound you want, I can't say. That's subjective; I'm trying to stay objective.

The 1000 doesn't have the memory slot, but like the 990, it saves programs via SYSEX, so you don't need to deal with the old memory cards which can be very expensive, and don't store much. Another concern with the memory cards (as I found with mine) is that the battery will eventually fail--taking everything you stored on the card with it. And you can't simply replace the battery with data on the card, because the data will be erased when you remove the old battery. So again, the 1000 and the 990 can store virtually unlimited numbers of presets via SYSEX to your sequencer--even if that's just in one of your synths. As long as you have something that will record a SYSEX dump, you won't have to worry about losing presets. But yes, if you want to get a couple of the old memory cards, the 990 does offer a fairly convenient way to store some presets on a card.

And yes what you read about their "birth order" is true--and confusing. Apparently, the SPX 990 came out after the SPX 1000, and it was more of an "update" to the SPX 900 than an "upgrade" from the 1000. (When you consider that Yamaha released the higher-numbered DX7 before the DX5 and the DX1, it all makes a bit more sense.)

It would be great if you could hear a few examples of them with your synths. You can certainly hear some examples of them in YouTube videos, but the quality of the video/audio production is usually pretty bad. If you can find some good ones and listen with good headphones, you might be able to get an idea of how each box might sound with your gear.

Here are some examples of the SPX990's delays and reverbs on vocals: https://www.vintagedigital.com.au/ya...ssor/#tab-id-2

Steve
Old 23rd August 2019
  #49
Hi Steve,

From comparing the two manuals, there is definitely quite a few differences in listed effects. Same general idea, but unless the names are simply different for the same thing, there is definitely some differences.

Some of the top ones I see mentioned are Delay L C R, Symphonic and Freeze, which are listed in both and that is good. Outside of those, I just want decent reverb, delay and modulation like phaser, flanger, chorus etc and I think either unit will be fine for those choices.

Anything is better than what I have now, which is nothing outside of my Midiverb II and I still refuse to want to use plugins, so I think I may look into the SPX1000, simply because it will interface to my existing equipment better, as per your suggestion. From doing a quick look, the price is no different really, between the 990 and the 1000. Now it is just finding one in half decent shape that I am happy with!



You have been most valuable to helping me make this decision Steve. I do appreciate your long and detailed replies.

Don't take this wrong everyone else though, I do appreciate ALL the suggestions and replies that were made. Really, thank you all!
Old 23rd August 2019
  #50
I’m glad you’re on your way to getting something which you feel you can work with, and which will help you make music, my friend! That’s what these forums are all about, right?!

Let us know how it works out for you—and share some music when you’ve made it!

Steve
Old 23rd August 2019
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowsOfLife View Post
I’m glad you’re on your way to getting something which you feel you can work with, and which will help you make music, my friend! That’s what these forums are all about, right?!

Let us know how it works out for you—and share some music when you’ve made it!

Steve
Thanks Steve! I certainly am looking forward to getting it! I am not that hard to please actually, as long a I have something that 'I' think sounds good and is easy to use, to get results I desire, then I am happy. I just didn't want it on the back of my mind that I made an impulse purchase, without properly looking at all my options, cause then it would bother me, that perhaps I could have had something better and would always wonder. I think more than enough effort was put into narrowing down this unit, so I should be quite pleased with it.

Old 24th August 2019
  #52
In looking for some good conditioned units on ebay of the Yamaha SPX990/1000, I came across another highly mentioned/regarded effects box, the Boss SE-70. It is only a half rack, but seems to pack quite a punch, for its selection of really unique effects. Seems pretty straight forward to program too!

Any thoughts, or experience with this one?
Old 6 days ago
  #53
Thanks again to everyone for all their time and patience while dealing with me, regarding this topic. I have since settled on an SPX990 and it is working great. I am really glad that it doesn't have the power supply failure issues, that the older SPX90 units do and having balanced connections, allowed me to interface it with my more modern equipment, with ease. The battery was even self replaceable, as it was in a socket, rather than soldered, so that was a bonus for me too.

I really appreciate everyone's input, as I couldn't have done this without you guys, so thank you so much, yet again.
Old 5 days ago
  #54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantankerous View Post
Thanks again to everyone for all their time and patience while dealing with me, regarding this topic. I have since settled on an SPX990 and it is working great. I am really glad that it doesn't have the power supply failure issues, that the older SPX90 units do and having balanced connections, allowed me to interface it with my more modern equipment, with ease. The battery was even self replaceable, as it was in a socket, rather than soldered, so that was a bonus for me too.

I really appreciate everyone's input, as I couldn't have done this without you guys, so thank you so much, yet again.
That's why we're all here, right? I'm glad it worked out well for you!

Steve
Old 5 days ago
  #55
Gear Nut
 
zukan's Avatar
 

I used to love the TC Electronics D2, the Korg AM8000R....simple and powerful.
Old 5 days ago
  #56
TC Electronic M300 or the slightly newer M350 might suit you - easy to store memory for some recall but no screen and all knobs. Plus, the 2 engines can used independently so can be used as 2 separate mono effects. Good choice of bread and butter effects too.
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