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Old 11th September 2019
  #151
Here for the gear
 

You'll need to mic everything and see what can you do. Only 10 inputs right? Double bass drum mic is out of the picture xD
Old 11th September 2019
  #152
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeagVzla View Post
You'll need to mic everything and see what can you do. Only 10 inputs right? Double bass drum mic is out of the picture xD
not necessarily- there are plenty of other compromises you could make

like having a mono overhead
no hi-hat mic
no snare under mic
no tom mics



which are things I often do anyway, lots of the time. Even when I am not "tight" for tracks and even when the drummer has only one kick.

If the drummer is really using double kicks well and they are integral to his style or the band's style, capturing them separately might take priority over a lot of other things.
Old 12th September 2019
  #153
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
not necessarily- there are plenty of other compromises you could make

like having a mono overhead
no hi-hat mic
no snare under mic
no tom mics



which are things I often do anyway, lots of the time. Even when I am not "tight" for tracks and even when the drummer has only one kick.

If the drummer is really using double kicks well and they are integral to his style or the band's style, capturing them separately might take priority over a lot of other things.
I’m not sure I’ve ever had to record a double kick!

Without a proper summation of how they’ll be used it’s difficult to say what to do, but I’d be struggling to think how to treat them. For example, are they both panned centrally? If so, why not just have a double beater on a single kick?

If panned slightly L/R, is the drummer mainly playing one kick or is he always alternating? Either way, you’ve got a slightly weird stereo effect going on - either your kick is mostly off centre, or every hit is panning.

Unless there’s a really good reason why not, I’d strongly suggest recording with a single kick and double kick pedal. If nothing else, it’s one less thing for an inexperienced recordist to have to deal with - it can be hard enough getting a great kick tone without having to do it twice over?

I must admit it’s not my area of musical knowledge - does anyone know if the drummers famous for using 2 kicks live (Carmen Appice for example?) use 2 in the studio? Any good examples of double kick recordings someone can show to demonstrate how it can work practically?
Old 12th September 2019
  #154
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I’m not sure I’ve ever had to record a double kick!

Without a proper summation of how they’ll be used it’s difficult to say what to do, but I’d be struggling to think how to treat them. For example, are they both panned centrally? If so, why not just have a double beater on a single kick?

If panned slightly L/R, is the drummer mainly playing one kick or is he always alternating? Either way, you’ve got a slightly weird stereo effect going on - either your kick is mostly off centre, or every hit is panning.

Unless there’s a really good reason why not, I’d strongly suggest recording with a single kick and double kick pedal. If nothing else, it’s one less thing for an inexperienced recordist to have to deal with - it can be hard enough getting a great kick tone without having to do it twice over?

I must admit it’s not my area of musical knowledge - does anyone know if the drummers famous for using 2 kicks live (Carmen Appice for example?) use 2 in the studio? Any good examples of double kick recordings someone can show to demonstrate how it can work practically?
Most metal drummers who aren’t sample replaced use two kicks in the studio since the days of Motörhead. Single kick is less common unless they’re doing heel to toe hits like Nicko McBain in Iron Maiden. There’s a lot of judicious micing and compression needed but you have to start somewhere.
Old 12th September 2019
  #155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctambulant View Post
Most metal drummers who aren’t sample replaced use two kicks in the studio since the days of Motörhead. Single kick is less common unless they’re doing heel to toe hits like Nicko McBain in Iron Maiden. There’s a lot of judicious micing and compression needed but you have to start somewhere.
I think "most" is a stretch...many I'm sure use double kick pedals (which means you can play the same parts, even if the drum doesn't react the same).

I'm asking for specific mixing advice/examples of treatment - show me how to get round the issues I raised (please!).

found this while googling:

https://drummagazine.com/double-bass...short-history/

I did find this quite pertinent:

"A new frontier in bass drumming is being blazed by drummers that treat their feet just like their hands and play more complicated, and often more interesting patterns (though Bellson and others did practice rudiments with their feet). These new drum set patterns, so far, are emerging mostly in drum clinics, though some have made it into actual musical applications.

Bozzio, Virgil Donati, Thomas Lang, Marco Minnemann, and a handful of others are becoming notorious for having feet that can keep up with their hands, and mixing combination strokes into dense drum set beats. Most of these players remain solo artists, whose fantastically complex technique is so extreme that it overcomes most types of performances."
Old 12th September 2019
  #156
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I think "most" is a stretch...many I'm sure use double kick pedals (which means you can play the same parts, even if the drum doesn't react the same).

I'm asking for specific mixing advice/examples of treatment - show me how to get round the issues I raised (please!).

found this while googling:

https://drummagazine.com/double-bass...short-history/

I did find this quite pertinent:

"A new frontier in bass drumming is being blazed by drummers that treat their feet just like their hands and play more complicated, and often more interesting patterns (though Bellson and others did practice rudiments with their feet). These new drum set patterns, so far, are emerging mostly in drum clinics, though some have made it into actual musical applications.

Bozzio, Virgil Donati, Thomas Lang, Marco Minnemann, and a handful of others are becoming notorious for having feet that can keep up with their hands, and mixing combination strokes into dense drum set beats. Most of these players remain solo artists, whose fantastically complex technique is so extreme that it overcomes most types of performances."
After a certain point, to make fast double kick work be audible through a mix on hifi stuff, you’ll have to make it unnatural ime. Cut anything muddy like a madman, compress them to hell, and most importantly, boost the attack of the beater head. You might even have to make that insane NS10able fake fundamental in addition to the lower real one for consumer speaker playback. Don’t be afraid if it sounds awful when soloing the kicks. Don’t be afraid of applying a really high HPF. Old death metal did it originally without total replacement and it worked on the first couple of Morbid Angel and Immolation records. Now the insane “technical” stuff and later work from both bands? Those are eqed and compressed samples and triggered live because real drums don’t do that. For samples, anything goes. That’s what I know. Double bass drum legends to me are Philthy Animal Taylor and Pete Commando Sandoval.

Edit: Also, for a less artificial sound, I’ll use multiple rounds of warmer compressors after the initial gain reduction instead of one high ratio and low threshold. It helps it not stand out in a mix as much and be questioned by the listener depending on the drum sound and part.
Old 12th September 2019
  #157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctambulant View Post
After a certain point, to make fast double kick work be audible through a mix on hifi stuff, you’ll have to make it unnatural ime. Cut anything muddy like a madman, compress them to hell, and most importantly, boost the attack of the beater head. You might even have to make that insane NS10able fake fundamental in addition to the lower real one for consumer speaker playback. Don’t be afraid if it sounds awful when soloing the kicks. Don’t be afraid of applying a really high HPF. Old death metal did it originally without total replacement and it worked on the first couple of Morbid Angel and Immolation records. Now the insane “technical” stuff and later work from both bands? Those are eqed and compressed samples and triggered live because real drums don’t do that. For samples, anything goes. That’s what I know. Double bass drum legends to me are Philthy Animal Taylor and Pete Commando Sandoval.

Edit: Also, for a less artificial sound, I’ll use multiple rounds of warmer compressors after the initial gain reduction instead of one high ratio and low threshold. It helps it not stand out in a mix as much and be questioned by the listener depending on the drum sound and part.
Yep, I'm aware of this sort of stuff - but it can be applied to single kick, double pedal too!

I'm keen to hear how to treat double kicks so that it makes it worth actually recording double kick drums.

(totally hearing you re triggers - I've seen projects arrive for mixing which are a pair of overheads and a set of midi triggers!).
Old 12th September 2019
  #158
Lives for gear
 
konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeagVzla View Post
You'll need to mic everything and see what can you do. Only 10 inputs right? Double bass drum mic is out of the picture xD
Yeah I mean to be honest even I only had 6 channels I could do something like snare, kick, kick, overheads (including hi-hat) and kinda toms and maybe a shared tom mic or one for the room. It's just more individually mic'd drums means I can have more control over the stereo image, but even with less than 6 channels I could make do. It just wouldn't be my preference.

Yeah the kicks at least need a mic each, but in and out would be ridiculous to use 4 channels for kicks. I'm sure one per kick would be fine though. They're not huge boomy floppy kicks. They're small, tight, punchy and tuned. Also there will be fast double stroke roll going on so it would be more blurry with a single kick and double pedal. Then again, recording wise who knows. This is aside from having the ability to split them up for panning.


Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
not necessarily- there are plenty of other compromises you could make

like having a mono overhead
no hi-hat mic
no snare under mic
no tom mics


which are things I often do anyway, lots of the time. Even when I am not "tight" for tracks and even when the drummer has only one kick.

If the drummer is really using double kicks well and they are integral to his style or the band's style, capturing them separately might take priority over a lot of other things.
Yeah I have even thought of a ton of ways I could do it with only 8 channels or less. Even 6. It's just that I would lose some control over being able to move things around the stereo field (as said above). I could make do though with even 6 or less. It just wouldn't be my ideal preference.

Yes they are integral to my compositions and arrangements as well as his drumming. They are definitely priority along with the obvious snare.


Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I’m not sure I’ve ever had to record a double kick!

Without a proper summation of how they’ll be used it’s difficult to say what to do, but I’d be struggling to think how to treat them. For example, are they both panned centrally? If so, why not just have a double beater on a single kick?

If panned slightly L/R, is the drummer mainly playing one kick or is he always alternating? Either way, you’ve got a slightly weird stereo effect going on - either your kick is mostly off centre, or every hit is panning.

Unless there’s a really good reason why not, I’d strongly suggest recording with a single kick and double kick pedal. If nothing else, it’s one less thing for an inexperienced recordist to have to deal with - it can be hard enough getting a great kick tone without having to do it twice over?

I must admit it’s not my area of musical knowledge - does anyone know if the drummers famous for using 2 kicks live (Carmen Appice for example?) use 2 in the studio? Any good examples of double kick recordings someone can show to demonstrate how it can work practically?
I thought about panning. I figured it might make the power of the track off center if I do that though, I would have to try and see in the mix I think. I was thinking it may depend on the song too and I could even setup differently per song, though it would waste more time.

I figured sometimes I might be able to center them and sometimes off-center them left and right depending on the song, or even within the same song. I wouldn't have that control though without the 2 separate kicks.

The other point is he will do a lot of fast 32nd note double stroke roll and I want the clarity and punch of each note to be there which might get blurred by using a double pedal. And as stated above, the kicks are a priority in this case. Like imagine a metal drummer kicks really fast on a double kick, but using double stroke roll, my drummer has 2 kicks to a normal guy's every one kick because he is doing a double with each foot and then alternating those.

The good news is the kicks are small and tuned and very punchy.

I am not sure what every other guy does but it will be a lot faster than Carmine Appice style. I think the other guys that kick like that always use 2 kick drums, but I haven't really researched every single one ever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctambulant View Post
Most metal drummers who aren’t sample replaced use two kicks in the studio since the days of Motörhead. Single kick is less common unless they’re doing heel to toe hits like Nicko McBain in Iron Maiden. There’s a lot of judicious micing and compression needed but you have to start somewhere.
Yeah another point, although I just mentioned it above, he will be doing a lot of double stroke roll pretty fast, so it's like 2 kicks for every normal guy's one kick. So it's like a combo of the two things you stated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I think "most" is a stretch...many I'm sure use double kick pedals (which means you can play the same parts, even if the drum doesn't react the same).

I'm asking for specific mixing advice/examples of treatment - show me how to get round the issues I raised (please!).

found this while googling:

https://drummagazine.com/double-bass...short-history/

I did find this quite pertinent:

"A new frontier in bass drumming is being blazed by drummers that treat their feet just like their hands and play more complicated, and often more interesting patterns (though Bellson and others did practice rudiments with their feet). These new drum set patterns, so far, are emerging mostly in drum clinics, though some have made it into actual musical applications.

Bozzio, Virgil Donati, Thomas Lang, Marco Minnemann, and a handful of others are becoming notorious for having feet that can keep up with their hands, and mixing combination strokes into dense drum set beats. Most of these players remain solo artists, whose fantastically complex technique is so extreme that it overcomes most types of performances."
Yeah, that's more like the ballpark. This list of guys is more like what we are talking about. In fact you can say at least someone on that list learned a few tricks from my drummer. So I guess you can try to picture those types of guys when considering this scenario.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctambulant View Post
After a certain point, to make fast double kick work be audible through a mix on hifi stuff, you’ll have to make it unnatural ime. Cut anything muddy like a madman, compress them to hell, and most importantly, boost the attack of the beater head. You might even have to make that insane NS10able fake fundamental in addition to the lower real one for consumer speaker playback. Don’t be afraid if it sounds awful when soloing the kicks. Don’t be afraid of applying a really high HPF. Old death metal did it originally without total replacement and it worked on the first couple of Morbid Angel and Immolation records. Now the insane “technical” stuff and later work from both bands? Those are eqed and compressed samples and triggered live because real drums don’t do that. For samples, anything goes. That’s what I know. Double bass drum legends to me are Philthy Animal Taylor and Pete Commando Sandoval.

Edit: Also, for a less artificial sound, I’ll use multiple rounds of warmer compressors after the initial gain reduction instead of one high ratio and low threshold. It helps it not stand out in a mix as much and be questioned by the listener depending on the drum sound and part.
If it helps, I can say that we have recorded live in a far from ideal scenario and you can still hear the separation clearly enough to grasp what's going on. The kicks DID each still have a mic though. However, we used 10 channels for the whole band. Leaving 6 for drums (and percussion).

I can't remember exactly but I know there was 1 mic for snare and 1 for each kick. Then 2 overheads I think. And then I think another overhead above the congas.

It was nowhere near what I want for a studio recording but it was all kinda audible, that's all I am saying. I think it helps that he uses small, punchy, tuned kick drums.

I will include a link at the bottom of this post so maybe you guys can get more of a picture of what will happen with the kicks, although not sure it's the best example of what I am talking about, at least you can get the point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Yep, I'm aware of this sort of stuff - but it can be applied to single kick, double pedal too!

I'm keen to hear how to treat double kicks so that it makes it worth actually recording double kick drums.

(totally hearing you re triggers - I've seen projects arrive for mixing which are a pair of overheads and a set of midi triggers!).
We won't be using triggers or samples in this scenario but I think the punch will be fine as long as the kicks are mic'd separately, considering the clarity of the actual drums used and the drummer's technique. It's more of a question of how to mix them after. I think no matter what I will be using 1 mic per kick. It would've just been a bonus if I could have inside and outside per kick. However, that could be a headache to have so many channels to deal with. And it's probably not plausible on my budget anyway.

As I mentioned in one of the above replies though, it was still audible even on a far from ideal live recording, so I think that it's probably fine to just allocate a mic for each kick as long as I use a bit of common sense, etc., when tracking.

PS - Guys, here is a link to a live video. Our sound engineer managed to at least get a cleanish recording of us on 10 tracks even though conditions were far from ideal and at least we managed to capture everything with the kicks still being audibly separate (I think) and that's including congas, etc., without percussion being overdubbed separately (as it would be in the studio) since it is a live scenario.

In terms of how the kicks will be played, maybe if you take a look at around 12:05 to 13:30 you can see a reasonable example of what I am talking about although he is still played rather relaxed in this instance... In most cases it won't need to be much faster than this, but it could possibly be depending on the song.

Of course this recording is not as good as what we are hoping to get in the studio and it's not exactly the best performance we could do, but it's the best example I have at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXzJ5DOhqvM
Old 12th September 2019
  #159
Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
Yeah I mean to be honest even I only had 6 channels I could do something like snare, kick, kick, overheads (including hi-hat) and kinda toms and maybe a shared tom mic or one for the room. It's just more individually mic'd drums means I can have more control over the stereo image, but even with less than 6 channels I could make do. It just wouldn't be my preference.

Yeah the kicks at least need a mic each, but in and out would be ridiculous to use 4 channels for kicks. I'm sure one per kick would be fine though. They're not huge boomy floppy kicks. They're small, tight, punchy and tuned. Also there will be fast double stroke roll going on so it would be more blurry with a single kick and double pedal. Then again, recording wise who knows. This is aside from having the ability to split them up for panning.




Yeah I have even thought of a ton of ways I could do it with only 8 channels or less. Even 6. It's just that I would lose some control over being able to move things around the stereo field (as said above). I could make do though with even 6 or less. It just wouldn't be my ideal preference.

Yes they are integral to my compositions and arrangements as well as his drumming. They are definitely priority along with the obvious snare.




I thought about panning. I figured it might make the power of the track off center if I do that though, I would have to try and see in the mix I think. I was thinking it may depend on the song too and I could even setup differently per song, though it would waste more time.

I figured sometimes I might be able to center them and sometimes off-center them left and right depending on the song, or even within the same song. I wouldn't have that control though without the 2 separate kicks.

The other point is he will do a lot of fast 32nd note double stroke roll and I want the clarity and punch of each note to be there which might get blurred by using a double pedal. And as stated above, the kicks are a priority in this case. Like imagine a metal drummer kicks really fast on a double kick, but using double stroke roll, my drummer has 2 kicks to a normal guy's every one kick because he is doing a double with each foot and then alternating those.

The good news is the kicks are small and tuned and very punchy.

I am not sure what every other guy does but it will be a lot faster than Carmine Appice style. I think the other guys that kick like that always use 2 kick drums, but I haven't really researched every single one ever.




Yeah another point, although I just mentioned it above, he will be doing a lot of double stroke roll pretty fast, so it's like 2 kicks for every normal guy's one kick. So it's like a combo of the two things you stated.




Yeah, that's more like the ballpark. This list of guys is more like what we are talking about. In fact you can say at least someone on that list learned a few tricks from my drummer. So I guess you can try to picture those types of guys when considering this scenario.




If it helps, I can say that we have recorded live in a far from ideal scenario and you can still hear the separation clearly enough to grasp what's going on. The kicks DID each still have a mic though. However, we used 10 channels for the whole band. Leaving 6 for drums (and percussion).

I can't remember exactly but I know there was 1 mic for snare and 1 for each kick. Then 2 overheads I think. And then I think another overhead above the congas.

It was nowhere near what I want for a studio recording but it was all kinda audible, that's all I am saying. I think it helps that he uses small, punchy, tuned kick drums.

I will include a link at the bottom of this post so maybe you guys can get more of a picture of what will happen with the kicks, although not sure it's the best example of what I am talking about, at least you can get the point.




We won't be using triggers or samples in this scenario but I think the punch will be fine as long as the kicks are mic'd separately, considering the clarity of the actual drums used and the drummer's technique. It's more of a question of how to mix them after. I think no matter what I will be using 1 mic per kick. It would've just been a bonus if I could have inside and outside per kick. However, that could be a headache to have so many channels to deal with. And it's probably not plausible on my budget anyway.

As I mentioned in one of the above replies though, it was still audible even on a far from ideal live recording, so I think that it's probably fine to just allocate a mic for each kick as long as I use a bit of common sense, etc., when tracking.

PS - Guys, here is a link to a live video. Our sound engineer managed to at least get a cleanish recording of us on 10 tracks even though conditions were far from ideal and at least we managed to capture everything with the kicks still being audibly separate (I think) and that's including congas, etc., without percussion being overdubbed separately (as it would be in the studio) since it is a live scenario.

In terms of how the kicks will be played, maybe if you take a look at around 12:05 to 13:30 you can see a reasonable example of what I am talking about although he is still played rather relaxed in this instance... In most cases it won't need to be much faster than this, but it could possibly be depending on the song.

Of course this recording is not as good as what we are hoping to get in the studio and it's not exactly the best performance we could do, but it's the best example I have at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXzJ5DOhqvM
Right. watching that vid, he's still mainly playing one kick for the downbeat, and the 2nd when the doubles are needed (and I get the point about them being small!).

I personally really hate the idea of things moving within the song - like one minute the kick is central, and the next they're wide - it kind of goes against the concept of capturing the kit itself - but it's up to your taste I suppose! you also are then chasing your tail on phase if you're not careful.

Other than that, drum clinic drummers aren't really my thing, so I'm probably not the best person to advise! I would still like to hear how double kicks are treated in studio sessions from those who've done this successfully (particularly relating to the stereo field).

(your drummer could be my older brother btw )
Old 12th September 2019
  #160
Lives for gear
 
konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Right. watching that vid, he's still mainly playing one kick for the downbeat, and the 2nd when the doubles are needed (and I get the point about them being small!).

I personally really hate the idea of things moving within the song - like one minute the kick is central, and the next they're wide - it kind of goes against the concept of capturing the kit itself - but it's up to your taste I suppose! you also are then chasing your tail on phase if you're not careful.

Other than that, drum clinic drummers aren't really my thing, so I'm probably not the best person to advise! I would still like to hear how double kicks are treated in studio sessions from those who've done this successfully (particularly relating to the stereo field).

(your drummer could be my older brother btw )
Yes exactly, though it's not always necessarily going to be like that. It depends on the song. This is the only decent quality video I have though. I mean, I have others but they're badly recorded.

Yeah I thought the thing moving might be bad. I thought most likely I will just keep it all center, but I do want to try experimenting while mixing JUST incase it becomes interesting. Or there maybe a song where it works L/R. I really don't know until I get my gear setup done and then try recording and get to the mixing stage. I think very likely I will end up just keeping it all (or mostly) centered.

Good point about phase too, this is something I was also concerned about.

Are those guys considered clinic drummers? I didn't realize hahah. I thought they just do clinics as a side thing. I've heard those guys a bit but don't follow everything they do. I mainly grew up on Billy Cobham, Narada Michael Walden, Lenny White, etc. Guys like that.
Old 12th September 2019
  #161
Here for the gear
 

To be honest, if you're going to mic those drums. 1 mic for each bass drum, 2 for toms, 2 for overheads. How many you got left? You'll need 2 on a snare too. How many more pieces?
Old 12th September 2019
  #162
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I’m not sure I’ve ever had to record a double kick!
A friend of mine lent me his drum set while he was away for the summer. I set it up with my own kit to have a sort of Ginger Baker/Billy Cobham kind of kit. It was a blast. These kinds of setups are usually about more than just two kick drums - they often are to encourage a full ambidexterity as far as right and left hand "leading".

Quote:
Without a proper summation of how they’ll be used it’s difficult to say what to do, but I’d be struggling to think how to treat them. For example, are they both panned centrally? If so, why not just have a double beater on a single kick?
I remember owning some albums from the 60's where they would pan them full left and right, but because it was going to vinyl much of the low-frequency stuff was channelized into mono. You could still hear the "click" of the beater on the sides, though.

Quote:
If panned slightly L/R, is the drummer mainly playing one kick or is he always alternating? Either way, you’ve got a slightly weird stereo effect going on - either your kick is mostly off centre, or every hit is panning.
Many drummers are using the double-kick for sheer speed- fast left right rolls or inserting a quick 16th "in-between". I always looked at the double-pedal thing as a 'convenience' for small stages and not enough roadies.

Quote:
Unless there’s a really good reason why not, I’d strongly suggest recording with a single kick and double kick pedal. If nothing else, it’s one less thing for an inexperienced recordist to have to deal with - it can be hard enough getting a great kick tone without having to do it twice over?
I only had the setup for a few months, but I tuned the two drums differently and I think there was something there that could easily become an 'integral' part of someone's playing. Something that you would have a hard time talking them out of.

Like trying to tell a 6-string bass player he only needs a 4-string bass.
Quote:
Any good examples of double kick recordings someone can show to demonstrate how it can work practically
I think its true that the majority usage of two kick drums is just for sustained speed. Most double bass drumming have the drums only slightly apart in panning and in tuning. They are usually meant to be heard almost as one really fast drum. The kick drum Part is IMO, usually one part, not two parts. But there are exceptions.


On "Politician", Ginger Baker really seems to use it as a "4th" limb- an independent voice,. Go to about 1:20 WOPDzD_P9gg&list=PLzEG2f9QAl8Np-6-4lbJtBpDeJXJG12ZF&index=6


Mike Portnoy - Dream Theater - these sound tuned the same but they also sound like they might be samples - they are panned slightly L-R of center - go to the 11:05 minute mark. These are quite loud in the mix, but not fully panned and so fast that, IMO you don't really have time to fell the mix "shifting". To the extent you do, it may well be intentional.

Billy Cobham - Mahavishnu Orchestra - Birds of Fire. Slightly panned.


Red Hot Mötley Crüe


And then there are guys like this: Thomas Crémier - he is triggering and does a double stroke on each pedal for some inhuman speeds.
Old 13th September 2019
  #163
Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
Yes exactly, though it's not always necessarily going to be like that. It depends on the song. This is the only decent quality video I have though. I mean, I have others but they're badly recorded.

Yeah I thought the thing moving might be bad. I thought most likely I will just keep it all center, but I do want to try experimenting while mixing JUST incase it becomes interesting. Or there maybe a song where it works L/R. I really don't know until I get my gear setup done and then try recording and get to the mixing stage. I think very likely I will end up just keeping it all (or mostly) centered.

Good point about phase too, this is something I was also concerned about.

Are those guys considered clinic drummers? I didn't realize hahah. I thought they just do clinics as a side thing. I've heard those guys a bit but don't follow everything they do. I mainly grew up on Billy Cobham, Narada Michael Walden, Lenny White, etc. Guys like that.
It’s more that they’re drummers playing for other drummers, more than as a part of the music. Very few drummers manage to make crazy technique and intense parts work musically, at least musically that works for non musicians.

(That’s not limited to drummers - the same is true for every virtuoso, with the exception perhaps of classical pianists?!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
A friend of mine lent me his drum set while he was away for the summer. I set it up with my own kit to have a sort of Ginger Baker/Billy Cobham kind of kit. It was a blast. These kinds of setups are usually about more than just two kick drums - they often are to encourage a full ambidexterity as far as right and left hand "leading".



I remember owning some albums from the 60's where they would pan them full left and right, but because it was going to vinyl much of the low-frequency stuff was channelized into mono. You could still hear the "click" of the beater on the sides, though.



Many drummers are using the double-kick for sheer speed- fast left right rolls or inserting a quick 16th "in-between". I always looked at the double-pedal thing as a 'convenience' for small stages and not enough roadies.



I only had the setup for a few months, but I tuned the two drums differently and I think there was something there that could easily become an 'integral' part of someone's playing. Something that you would have a hard time talking them out of.

Like trying to tell a 6-string bass player he only needs a 4-string bass.


I think its true that the majority usage of two kick drums is just for sustained speed. Most double bass drumming have the drums only slightly apart in panning and in tuning. They are usually meant to be heard almost as one really fast drum. The kick drum Part is IMO, usually one part, not two parts. But there are exceptions.


On "Politician", Ginger Baker really seems to use it as a "4th" limb- an independent voice,. Go to about 1:20 WOPDzD_P9gg&list=PLzEG2f9QAl8Np-6-4lbJtBpDeJXJG12ZF&index=6


Mike Portnoy - Dream Theater - these sound tuned the same but they also sound like they might be samples - they are panned slightly L-R of center - go to the 11:05 minute mark. These are quite loud in the mix, but not fully panned and so fast that, IMO you don't really have time to fell the mix "shifting". To the extent you do, it may well be intentional.

Billy Cobham - Mahavishnu Orchestra - Birds of Fire. Slightly panned.


Red Hot Mötley Crüe


And then there are guys like this: Thomas Crémier - he is triggering and does a double stroke on each pedal for some inhuman speeds.
Yeah I get that, and I’m not a drummer nor do I really care about intensely technical music anymore, so I’m probably not the audience. But still - where does the main “1 and 3” fall, to left or right on a panned kick kit?! I get how it could be cool for the wig out bits, it’s the regular moments I want to know about!
Old 13th September 2019
  #164
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeagVzla View Post
To be honest, if you're going to mic those drums. 1 mic for each bass drum, 2 for toms, 2 for overheads. How many you got left? You'll need 2 on a snare too. How many more pieces?
I wasn't sure if top and bottom snare is necessary, however, if it is, then 2 for snare, 2 for kicks, 2 overheads, 1 hi-hat, 4 toms and maybe a room mic would be 12. That would be maximum. But yeah the toms could share 2 to 1 mic and the hi-hat could be caught by the overhead if necessary. Then we are down to 9 (or 8 if 1 for snare). And not sure if there's a point having the room mic either in such a small room.


Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
A friend of mine lent me his drum set while he was away for the summer. I set it up with my own kit to have a sort of Ginger Baker/Billy Cobham kind of kit. It was a blast. These kinds of setups are usually about more than just two kick drums - they often are to encourage a full ambidexterity as far as right and left hand "leading".



I remember owning some albums from the 60's where they would pan them full left and right, but because it was going to vinyl much of the low-frequency stuff was channelized into mono. You could still hear the "click" of the beater on the sides, though.



Many drummers are using the double-kick for sheer speed- fast left right rolls or inserting a quick 16th "in-between". I always looked at the double-pedal thing as a 'convenience' for small stages and not enough roadies.



I only had the setup for a few months, but I tuned the two drums differently and I think there was something there that could easily become an 'integral' part of someone's playing. Something that you would have a hard time talking them out of.

Like trying to tell a 6-string bass player he only needs a 4-string bass.


I think its true that the majority usage of two kick drums is just for sustained speed. Most double bass drumming have the drums only slightly apart in panning and in tuning. They are usually meant to be heard almost as one really fast drum. The kick drum Part is IMO, usually one part, not two parts. But there are exceptions.


On "Politician", Ginger Baker really seems to use it as a "4th" limb- an independent voice,. Go to about 1:20 WOPDzD_P9gg&list=PLzEG2f9QAl8Np-6-4lbJtBpDeJXJG12ZF&index=6


Mike Portnoy - Dream Theater - these sound tuned the same but they also sound like they might be samples - they are panned slightly L-R of center - go to the 11:05 minute mark. These are quite loud in the mix, but not fully panned and so fast that, IMO you don't really have time to fell the mix "shifting". To the extent you do, it may well be intentional.

Billy Cobham - Mahavishnu Orchestra - Birds of Fire. Slightly panned.


Red Hot Mötley Crüe


And then there are guys like this: Thomas Crémier - he is triggering and does a double stroke on each pedal for some inhuman speeds.
Yeah, there are so many possibilities, as you pointed out. I think the summary of what you said basically amounts to: There are no rules. Hahah.

And yeah depends on the music. In my particular case, I don't need the bassist to have 6 strings, 4 is fine, but in a different instance maybe they need 6. However, I absolutely DO need 2 kicks. it's a big part of the songs. I don't need a ton of toms, but I might i a different scenario. Although we do have a ton of toms anyway as a bonus, but we could manage without it, but not without the kicks.

In some scenarios, like really limited gigs, we have to use a double pedal and a basic kit, but then we don't play the same stuff. We cannot play it all without congas, a bunch of pedals (aside from the 2 kicks), etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
It’s more that they’re drummers playing for other drummers, more than as a part of the music. Very few drummers manage to make crazy technique and intense parts work musically, at least musically that works for non musicians.

(That’s not limited to drummers - the same is true for every virtuoso, with the exception perhaps of classical pianists?!)



Yeah I get that, and I’m not a drummer nor do I really care about intensely technical music anymore, so I’m probably not the audience. But still - where does the main “1 and 3” fall, to left or right on a panned kick kit?! I get how it could be cool for the wig out bits, it’s the regular moments I want to know about!

I find the most interesting people are those that can manage both, yes. I mean, I think people polarize to extreme sides as a defence mechanism for their weaknesses. On the one hand there can be virtuosos that have great skill, but can't do much interesting with it (although not talking about any of these guys) and then there are people that say they have no feel because they themselves basically can't play and have no ability. So their defense is to make faces while playing and claim to have feel whilst saying anyone better than them is just technique and no feel.

Of course, as with all things in life, extreme sides are usually wrong and the truth is somewhere in the middle. I personally prefer when people exhibit both, rather than be incomplete and stuck to one side or the other. For example, as a guitarist I would love John McLaughlin or Al Di Meola on an given day, but I am not into shredder guitarists at all. Those are the guys that are complete and have both "sides" covered.

Anyway I guess this is all off topic now, hahah...
Old 13th September 2019
  #165
Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
I find the most interesting people are those that can manage both, yes. I mean, I think people polarize to extreme sides as a defence mechanism for their weaknesses. On the one hand there can be virtuosos that have great skill, but can't do much interesting with it (although not talking about any of these guys) and then there are people that say they have no feel because they themselves basically can't play and have no ability. So their defense is to make faces while playing and claim to have feel whilst saying anyone better than them is just technique and no feel.
sure - but you're still thinking like a musician. Even Steve Vai once said "a guitar solo is morse code to most people". A non-musician doesn't have a "defence mechanism". They just don't get moved by shredding guitarists or busy drummers - they want something that they can dance to, or a lyric that moves them. Anything that doesn't support that gets in the way.

Which is why the historically over busy drummers (from your vid, mitch mitchell is a good example!) have to have something else to make it work.

Quote:
Of course, as with all things in life, extreme sides are usually wrong and the truth is somewhere in the middle. I personally prefer when people exhibit both, rather than be incomplete and stuck to one side or the other. For example, as a guitarist I would love John McLaughlin or Al Di Meola on an given day, but I am not into shredder guitarists at all. Those are the guys that are complete and have both "sides" covered.

Anyway I guess this is all off topic now, hahah...
It is I guess, but interesting too perhaps?

I'm honestly not really familiar with the fan makeup of those players, but I'd wager a heavy amount of musicians amongst the audience of any one gig!

Of modern day guitarists who are amazing players but cross over into mass popularity, the ones that spring to mind are Matt Bellamy from Muse (who's hardly a "new name" now, but did some pretty amazing things over Muse's 3rd to 5th albums), and I'd even suggest John Mayer - stuff like "Neon" which I was trying to learn the other night is really intricate and yet beautiful at the same time. Basically guys that mean you don't hear the technique.

There's any number of decent metal players too, but it's still niche until you write songs that your skills can support. A decent number of metal fans aren't players (unlike someone like dream theatre perhaps). that's the difference - people who play songs for people versus people who play for other musos. Both are I suppose valid, but only one really connects. It's not a matter of saying someone doesn't have "feel", but it's not feeling insecure to say that someone with great technique might not play to the song.

At the same time, the best players know when to use that technique and when not to!
Old 13th September 2019
  #166
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
It’s more that they’re drummers playing for other drummers, more than as a part of the music. Very few drummers manage to make crazy technique and intense parts work musically, at least musically that works for non musicians.
there is this thing of competitive speed drumming. It is 100% non-musical - the only thing they have to do is play the most amount of "notes" in a 60 second time period. There is a machine that counts the strikes and the most successful technique is apparently a kind of buzz roll thing with multiple bounces of each stick.

As a drummer, I would consider this a 'cheating' kind of speed and probably the people organizing the competition might have originally agreed with me, but obviously it is forced upon them by their technology. I think it would be very very difficult to invent a machine that was capable of "disqualifying" bounces or buzzes.

It doesn't merely sound like 'nothing special', that would be too good. It actually sounds like 'a mess'.

Quote:
Yeah I get that, and I’m not a drummer nor do I really care about intensely technical music anymore, so I’m probably not the audience. But still - where does the main “1 and 3” fall, to left or right on a panned kick kit?!
Mostly this stuff seems panned off center, but not full left and right.

The thing I often hear are these continuous 16th note "rides" on the kicks. This is constantly going under the verse or chorus. Besides the “1 and 3” , there are 14 other notes in every measure so it hardly matters. I suppose most drummers are right-handed, which implies they are also right-footed, so the the right foot would be probably leading on the downbeats.

When the playing is sparser, some of the drummers have slightly different tunings of the the kicks and may opt to play one or the other or both. The Ginger Baker/Cream video above is a good example. He may play the right on some spots, the left on others and both drums together on still others. I think Baker approaches the theoretical ideal where the use of his feet is just like the use of his hands.

Double kicks are also used for fills. A popular fill figure for these setups might be something like: RH, LH, RF, LF, over and over again as a quadruplet.


Quote:
I get how it could be cool for the wig out bits, it’s the regular moments I want to know about!
I think in a lot of the really heavy styles it's all "wig out bits" with very few "regular moments"!
Old 13th September 2019
  #167
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
I wasn't sure if top and bottom snare is necessary, however
I say it is not. It has been so long since I used the snare bottom mic in a mix, that I stopped setting it up. Haven't missed it. Certainly if I was tight for channels, I would sacrifice it first. My trick is that when I want more snare wires in the recording, I place a small plywood board under the snare. The drum kit is normally on rugs but the board will reflect some of that snare sound back up to the snare mic and overheads. It's just enough, IMO.

Quote:
the toms could share 2 to 1 mic
you can also look into the "knee mic" idea. An omni mic just over the drummers right knee is just inches away from most of your toms. And from the kick and snare.

Quote:
and the hi-hat could be caught by the overhead if necessary.
and don't worry, it will pick up. Gearslutz is full of threads where people are asking how to lower the hi-hat bleed. It's the second most popular thread topic after "What preamp is best for..."
Old 13th September 2019
  #168
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
I say it is not. It has been so long since I used the snare bottom mic in a mix, that I stopped setting it up. Haven't missed it. Certainly if I was tight for channels, I would sacrifice it first. My trick is that when I want more snare wires in the recording, I place a small plywood board under the snare. The drum kit is normally on rugs but the board will reflect some of that snare sound back up to the snare mic and overheads. It's just enough, IMO.
And you could always trigger a gritty snare sample to blend in.
Old 13th September 2019
  #169
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpanderson80 View Post
And you could always trigger a gritty snare sample to blend in.


In fact, once you are triggering, you can cover all kinds of stuff with just triggers.

Once I did that thing where you "reamp" the snare by laying a speaker on top of the snare, playing the snare track into it and miking the underside. That worked ok, but it was just for a "test", I didn't really need it.

I also tried side-chaining a gate with white noise behind it, but I didn't care for that as much.
Old 14th September 2019
  #170
As far as conserving mics, I’d say this: 1 on snare, left OH can be over snare to pick up more if that. 2 OH. 2 on both kick reso’s. Right OH can be closer to floor Tom to pick more of that up. So far that’s 5. I’d think creative for a close mic to grab kick beater and snare side. I’ve had decent luck placing a mic close to the floor Tom but pointing towards snare side with the kick beater in its path. If this is panned mono that’s some nice punch. So that’s 6. Tons kind come out good in OH but I do like a hi hat mic. I agree room mics in a not so good room aren’t super helpful. I know cause that’s my deal too. But 1 can be nice. I point mine at the ceiling to get more reflection and just blend a little. That’s 8.
Old 15th September 2019
  #171
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
sure - but you're still thinking like a musician. Even Steve Vai once said "a guitar solo is morse code to most people". A non-musician doesn't have a "defence mechanism". They just don't get moved by shredding guitarists or busy drummers - they want something that they can dance to, or a lyric that moves them. Anything that doesn't support that gets in the way.

Which is why the historically over busy drummers (from your vid, mitch mitchell is a good example!) have to have something else to make it work.

It is I guess, but interesting too perhaps?

I'm honestly not really familiar with the fan makeup of those players, but I'd wager a heavy amount of musicians amongst the audience of any one gig!

Of modern day guitarists who are amazing players but cross over into mass popularity, the ones that spring to mind are Matt Bellamy from Muse (who's hardly a "new name" now, but did some pretty amazing things over Muse's 3rd to 5th albums), and I'd even suggest John Mayer - stuff like "Neon" which I was trying to learn the other night is really intricate and yet beautiful at the same time. Basically guys that mean you don't hear the technique.

There's any number of decent metal players too, but it's still niche until you write songs that your skills can support. A decent number of metal fans aren't players (unlike someone like dream theatre perhaps). that's the difference - people who play songs for people versus people who play for other musos. Both are I suppose valid, but only one really connects. It's not a matter of saying someone doesn't have "feel", but it's not feeling insecure to say that someone with great technique might not play to the song.

At the same time, the best players know when to use that technique and when not to!
Well I guess I should not get into an actual music debate since it will be too far off topic. I can say the last line is absolutely not possible to disagree with though hahah.

In general though I must admit, yes I am a musician and yes I am thinking like one, but I am fully aware that I do and believe that I should be able to. Too many musicians get abused if they don't dumb themselves down for everyone to understand. There are enough musicians in the world catering to that so I don't think the planet needs another.

Admittedly, I am more of the stance that what benefits and pushes the boundaries of music as a subject is more important, at least to me, then anyone, whether that be musicians or audiences. Of course it is preferable and necessary to present something that audiences can understand and relate to, but this doesn't necessarily need to be something super-basic. My personal goal would be to package something musically viable, or even potentially progressive in a way that can be appreciated by everyone. Not an easy task, but I don't see why it cannot be done. I think that your last line needs to be taken heavily into account for that to happen though for sure, so I do agree on that.

I also think that if non musicians claim that music is their life, as many do, they should take responsibility for educating themselves a bit, because although everyone likes to rage fit over subjects like this and cling on to how "subjective" music is, in reality nothing is 100% subjective or objective and yes, people can have their own taste and opinion, but it's delusional to think that is not shaped by a person's education in the subject. If I go to a baseball game, I wouldn't dream of having an opinion about which player I liked since I don't understand anything about how the game works and if I really was interested in it, I would think I had better learn about it first before having any kind of strong opinion.

So my goal as a musician would be to try to introduce something that pushes and widens the spectrum of what people can understand and appreciate, whilst making it relatable. I am not saying this isn't an ardent task. It is. However, that would be my "ideal" goal, even if subtle and gradual. I think musicians and non-musicians should be able to meet somewhere in the middle, otherwise music and understanding of music will never get collectively better and more eclectic on Earth. Not to mention, it can even go backwards.

Anyway this is getting too far off topic, sorry, but anyway, that's how I see music as a subject. Yes, people should like what they like, but be aware that what they understand about the subject can at least to some degree dictate what they will like. If they learn and experience more music, those tastes can change and evolve.

The problem for me is, if you understand something, you can't then make yourself not understand it and therefore you can see the beauty or feeling in something that is just noise to someone else.

Maybe a better example would be if a quantum physicist had discovered the secrets to how the universe works and was giving a lecture to someone (or some people) that couldn't understand a word he was saying about the subject, though he would be expressing something profound and incredible, it would be boring to people who can't understand the language and they would just zone out or have no interest in it. That doesn't mean it is not profound and incredible. It just means those people are not capable of being able to see that incredible aspect without learning more about the subject.

Or the most epic story ever told could be written in a language a person can't understand, therefore, to them, they would not be able to understand, see or appreciate that story. However, if they learned the language, they could potentially then see the value in the story and learn to love it. The story still is what it is, it's just that a person would need to understand the language it's written in to enough of a degree. Otherwise they would just tune out and not be able to comprehend or appreciate it.

The problem is that people are adamant that somehow music is an exception and every person on the planet is equally qualified to hold a strong opinion. I know I don't dare have a strong opinion on any subject if I am not thoroughly versed in it. There are only two subjects that I would dare have a strong opinion on. There are millions I am fully aware I am not qualified to judge and need to learn more about before forming a view.

This is what I see as the ultimate dilemma of music in this world. That is further exacerbated by an industry that is afraid of exposing people to anything different because they think they know what people like. I strongly believe any kind of music, if pushed to the level popular music is, for long enough and is all people get to hear and get used to everywhere they go, would do just as well. It may take a long time to reprogram the industry in this way, but I am sure that if people had exposure to enough of something, they would get used to it and learn to appreciate it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
there is this thing of competitive speed drumming. It is 100% non-musical - the only thing they have to do is play the most amount of "notes" in a 60 second time period. There is a machine that counts the strikes and the most successful technique is apparently a kind of buzz roll thing with multiple bounces of each stick.

As a drummer, I would consider this a 'cheating' kind of speed and probably the people organizing the competition might have originally agreed with me, but obviously it is forced upon them by their technology. I think it would be very very difficult to invent a machine that was capable of "disqualifying" bounces or buzzes.

It doesn't merely sound like 'nothing special', that would be too good. It actually sounds like 'a mess'.

Mostly this stuff seems panned off center, but not full left and right.

The thing I often hear are these continuous 16th note "rides" on the kicks. This is constantly going under the verse or chorus. Besides the “1 and 3” , there are 14 other notes in every measure so it hardly matters. I suppose most drummers are right-handed, which implies they are also right-footed, so the the right foot would be probably leading on the downbeats.

When the playing is sparser, some of the drummers have slightly different tunings of the the kicks and may opt to play one or the other or both. The Ginger Baker/Cream video above is a good example. He may play the right on some spots, the left on others and both drums together on still others. I think Baker approaches the theoretical ideal where the use of his feet is just like the use of his hands.

Double kicks are also used for fills. A popular fill figure for these setups might be something like: RH, LH, RF, LF, over and over again as a quadruplet.

I think in a lot of the really heavy styles it's all "wig out bits" with very few "regular moments"!
I think this reinforces the fact that there are so many possibilities and no rules. Hahah. I think I will just have to start recording and mixing and see how the kick panning works out and sounds. I may find it's too weird not to keep it all centered but I think I should at least experiment a bit first.

I'm assuming, for the most part, I will end up keeping everything centered and only if it contributes creatively to the "theme" of a song I may do some left and right action.


Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
I say it is not. It has been so long since I used the snare bottom mic in a mix, that I stopped setting it up. Haven't missed it. Certainly if I was tight for channels, I would sacrifice it first. My trick is that when I want more snare wires in the recording, I place a small plywood board under the snare. The drum kit is normally on rugs but the board will reflect some of that snare sound back up to the snare mic and overheads. It's just enough, IMO.

you can also look into the "knee mic" idea. An omni mic just over the drummers right knee is just inches away from most of your toms. And from the kick and snare.

and don't worry, it will pick up. Gearslutz is full of threads where people are asking how to lower the hi-hat bleed. It's the second most popular thread topic after "What preamp is best for..."
These are really interesting tips and I will consider these too when I am finally setup and trying to record! Thanks!


Quote:
Originally Posted by jpanderson80 View Post
And you could always trigger a gritty snare sample to blend in.
I think what I might rather do than that is to have an affected version of the real snare to blend a bit. I have seen people use tricks like this. I would again have to experiment because I am new to this and might end up finding it doesn't work.

I am quite reluctant to use any sort of sampling though if there's a way not to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by szyam View Post
As far as conserving mics, I’d say this: 1 on snare, left OH can be over snare to pick up more if that. 2 OH. 2 on both kick reso’s. Right OH can be closer to floor Tom to pick more of that up. So far that’s 5. I’d think creative for a close mic to grab kick beater and snare side. I’ve had decent luck placing a mic close to the floor Tom but pointing towards snare side with the kick beater in its path. If this is panned mono that’s some nice punch. So that’s 6. Tons kind come out good in OH but I do like a hi hat mic. I agree room mics in a not so good room aren’t super helpful. I know cause that’s my deal too. But 1 can be nice. I point mine at the ceiling to get more reflection and just blend a little. That’s 8.
Yeah, I think even with only like 5 mics you could even get aware with something like snare, kick, kick, overheads as bare minimum. I was just hoping to be able to experiment with having more separation for stereo options as I have been saying, but in worst case I can make do with even 5 I think. Or even less.

Those tips sound like good possibilities though and I will take them into consideration when I am setup and start trying to record. Depending how many channels I get to end up with. Thanks!
Old 15th September 2019
  #172
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konkon's Avatar
I know this is way off topic now, maybe I should start a new thread, but what do you guys think of compressor vs expansion vs neither on drum tracking? And high pass / low cut filtering? And if you think any are usable, what are your views on which drums / mics to use any of it on and which not to?

I am new to all this so still learning how it all works.

I would presume that an expander MIGHT be useful to minimize bleed if talking about drums, whereas a comp would bring up the bleed you don't want. On the other hand it might be able to even out or thicken a snare or kick sound? I know it could be good for a room mic to bring up room sound at least.

So far I only understand the basics of how comp/exp work. I don't even know what would happen if you team them up together. For example, if you expand to minimize bleed and noise, then compress, would that just undo the expansion? Or would there be a good way to expand to limit noise, then compress the parts you do want to even them out even more and bring up what you want to bring up?

I am sure there are many ways to do this, thinking logically, but not sure what the best way would be. Or would this be a dumb idea anyway and better not to bother at the tracking stage?

Anyway sorry if this has gone way off topic. Maybe I should make this a separate thread?!
Old 15th September 2019
  #173
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
I know this is way off topic now, maybe I should start a new thread, but what do you guys think of compressor vs expansion vs neither on drum tracking? And high pass / low cut filtering? And if you think any are usable, what are your views on which drums / mics to use any of it on and which not to?

I am new to all this so still learning how it all works.

I would presume that an expander MIGHT be useful to minimize bleed if talking about drums, whereas a comp would bring up the bleed you don't want. On the other hand it might be able to even out or thicken a snare or kick sound? I know it could be good for a room mic to bring up room sound at least.

So far I only understand the basics of how comp/exp work. I don't even know what would happen if you team them up together. For example, if you expand to minimize bleed and noise, then compress, would that just undo the expansion? Or would there be a good way to expand to limit noise, then compress the parts you do want to even them out even more and bring up what you want to bring up?

I am sure there are many ways to do this, thinking logically, but not sure what the best way would be. Or would this be a dumb idea anyway and better not to bother at the tracking stage?

Anyway sorry if this has gone way off topic. Maybe I should make this a separate thread?!
Unless you really know what you’re doing and you know exactly what you want, it’s always better to gain stage appropriately to not clip anything and track directly into the box. Then you can compress in the box later. The only really nice hardware compressors that are within your budget are the FMR Audio stuff anyway. I’ve had poor experiences trying the Warm 1176 stuff for tracking snares myself. It wasn’t anywhere near as close as or as flexible as just using a plugin, even stock ones in Logic, Cubase, and Reaper. The warm stuff was actually just noisy as hell.
Old 16th September 2019
  #174
Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
Well I guess I should not get into an actual music debate since it will be too far off topic. I can say the last line is absolutely not possible to disagree with though hahah.

In general though I must admit, yes I am a musician and yes I am thinking like one, but I am fully aware that I do and believe that I should be able to. Too many musicians get abused if they don't dumb themselves down for everyone to understand. There are enough musicians in the world catering to that so I don't think the planet needs another.

Admittedly, I am more of the stance that what benefits and pushes the boundaries of music as a subject is more important, at least to me, then anyone, whether that be musicians or audiences. Of course it is preferable and necessary to present something that audiences can understand and relate to, but this doesn't necessarily need to be something super-basic. My personal goal would be to package something musically viable, or even potentially progressive in a way that can be appreciated by everyone. Not an easy task, but I don't see why it cannot be done. I think that your last line needs to be taken heavily into account for that to happen though for sure, so I do agree on that.

I also think that if non musicians claim that music is their life, as many do, they should take responsibility for educating themselves a bit, because although everyone likes to rage fit over subjects like this and cling on to how "subjective" music is, in reality nothing is 100% subjective or objective and yes, people can have their own taste and opinion, but it's delusional to think that is not shaped by a person's education in the subject. If I go to a baseball game, I wouldn't dream of having an opinion about which player I liked since I don't understand anything about how the game works and if I really was interested in it, I would think I had better learn about it first before having any kind of strong opinion.

So my goal as a musician would be to try to introduce something that pushes and widens the spectrum of what people can understand and appreciate, whilst making it relatable. I am not saying this isn't an ardent task. It is. However, that would be my "ideal" goal, even if subtle and gradual. I think musicians and non-musicians should be able to meet somewhere in the middle, otherwise music and understanding of music will never get collectively better and more eclectic on Earth. Not to mention, it can even go backwards.

Anyway this is getting too far off topic, sorry, but anyway, that's how I see music as a subject. Yes, people should like what they like, but be aware that what they understand about the subject can at least to some degree dictate what they will like. If they learn and experience more music, those tastes can change and evolve.

The problem for me is, if you understand something, you can't then make yourself not understand it and therefore you can see the beauty or feeling in something that is just noise to someone else.

Maybe a better example would be if a quantum physicist had discovered the secrets to how the universe works and was giving a lecture to someone (or some people) that couldn't understand a word he was saying about the subject, though he would be expressing something profound and incredible, it would be boring to people who can't understand the language and they would just zone out or have no interest in it. That doesn't mean it is not profound and incredible. It just means those people are not capable of being able to see that incredible aspect without learning more about the subject.

Or the most epic story ever told could be written in a language a person can't understand, therefore, to them, they would not be able to understand, see or appreciate that story. However, if they learned the language, they could potentially then see the value in the story and learn to love it. The story still is what it is, it's just that a person would need to understand the language it's written in to enough of a degree. Otherwise they would just tune out and not be able to comprehend or appreciate it.

The problem is that people are adamant that somehow music is an exception and every person on the planet is equally qualified to hold a strong opinion. I know I don't dare have a strong opinion on any subject if I am not thoroughly versed in it. There are only two subjects that I would dare have a strong opinion on. There are millions I am fully aware I am not qualified to judge and need to learn more about before forming a view.

This is what I see as the ultimate dilemma of music in this world. That is further exacerbated by an industry that is afraid of exposing people to anything different because they think they know what people like. I strongly believe any kind of music, if pushed to the level popular music is, for long enough and is all people get to hear and get used to everywhere they go, would do just as well. It may take a long time to reprogram the industry in this way, but I am sure that if people had exposure to enough of something, they would get used to it and learn to appreciate it.




I think this reinforces the fact that there are so many possibilities and no rules. Hahah. I think I will just have to start recording and mixing and see how the kick panning works out and sounds. I may find it's too weird not to keep it all centered but I think I should at least experiment a bit first.

I'm assuming, for the most part, I will end up keeping everything centered and only if it contributes creatively to the "theme" of a song I may do some left and right action.




These are really interesting tips and I will consider these too when I am finally setup and trying to record! Thanks!




I think what I might rather do than that is to have an affected version of the real snare to blend a bit. I have seen people use tricks like this. I would again have to experiment because I am new to this and might end up finding it doesn't work.

I am quite reluctant to use any sort of sampling though if there's a way not to.




Yeah, I think even with only like 5 mics you could even get aware with something like snare, kick, kick, overheads as bare minimum. I was just hoping to be able to experiment with having more separation for stereo options as I have been saying, but in worst case I can make do with even 5 I think. Or even less.

Those tips sound like good possibilities though and I will take them into consideration when I am setup and start trying to record. Depending how many channels I get to end up with. Thanks!
All good, and you do what you want.

I would just say that don’t ever think of making music for non musicians as “dumbing down”. Technicians play drum clinics and guitar shows. Real musicians connect with people who may have zero understanding of what actually goes into music creation.

I also disagree that people should educate themselves about music - you can enjoy things without having to understand or be able to create it yourself. If you can’t connect to someone without them doing that - it’s not their fault!

At the same time, there’s plenty of musicians who only connect with other musos, there’s a market for that too.
Old 16th September 2019
  #175
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctambulant View Post
Unless you really know what you’re doing and you know exactly what you want, it’s always better to gain stage appropriately to not clip anything and track directly into the box. Then you can compress in the box later. The only really nice hardware compressors that are within your budget are the FMR Audio stuff anyway. I’ve had poor experiences trying the Warm 1176 stuff for tracking snares myself. It wasn’t anywhere near as close as or as flexible as just using a plugin, even stock ones in Logic, Cubase, and Reaper. The warm stuff was actually just noisy as hell.
Right, I was concerned about over-complicating things and getting into an unnecessary mess.

Oh really? I thought the Warm stuff was supposed to be another level than the FMR RNC. It seems to be in a much higher price range, that's for sure. I was considering FMR RNC and / or the Klark comps. Warm seems way too expensive for me anyway and if the FMR stuff is superior then why wouldn't I want to pay less and get more? Hahah.

Regarding Klark though, their 1176 seems to be kinda the same thing as the Warm one but for a fraction of the price. However, from what you're saying it sounds like I would be better off with FMR. Seems like I can get the Klark 1176 and the RNC for around the same kinda price anyway. The Klark LA2A a bit more.

Also, I have read stuff about trying to stay in the analog domain as long as possible before hitting the converters. Is that stuff basically pseudo-science or is there any validity in it?

Also what about using the outboard gear after tracking, in the mix, by sending it out and back in? I see a lot of people doing that, but others saying it is bad because it's not worth the conversion every time. Conflicting stuff!

I know most of this subject is about taste and personal preference, but there must be some factual science behind some of it that gives us some concrete answers, surely?
Old 16th September 2019
  #176
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
All good, and you do what you want.

I would just say that don’t ever think of making music for non musicians as “dumbing down”. Technicians play drum clinics and guitar shows. Real musicians connect with people who may have zero understanding of what actually goes into music creation.

I also disagree that people should educate themselves about music - you can enjoy things without having to understand or be able to create it yourself. If you can’t connect to someone without them doing that - it’s not their fault!

At the same time, there’s plenty of musicians who only connect with other musos, there’s a market for that too.
Hey sorry, I think maybe you misunderstood me a little. Maybe I didn't explain well and it seemed like I was saying every human should automatically learn about music. I didn't actually mean that. I meant IF they have strong opinions and are adamant about how right they are about any given aspect of music and IF they say things like "music is my life" and all they talk about is music, they should probably spend at least a LITTLE time learning about the subject. Otherwise they're simply not qualified to have such STRONG opinions.

If someone doesn't really care about music, then it's really fine for them to like what they like without understanding it, don't get me wrong. I just meant the people that want to come telling their opinions, etc., should probably learn a bit first. Honestly you must understand it is tiring being a musician and hearing people come giving you advice, etc., when they don't know the first thing about how music works. Hahah.

On the other hand, I know many people that don't really care about music and are aware they don't know much about it and like what they like and that's totally fine.

Also, I should clarify (which I failed to), I didn't necessarily mean people should learn about music technically. I kinda just meant at least expose themselves to more than just top 40 hits before having such strong opinions. At least give a chance to absorbing and getting used to different kinds of music before dismissing it. That's all I am saying. And that's IF people claim to be SO into music and hold strong opinions about it.

There's no way I would go telling Mike Tyson how to box unless I at least learned a bit about the subject first. Nor would I hold a strong opinion about which boxer is the best or worst, or which boxer I like, without at least learning what they're doing and how it works, at least a little. Or at least watching enough boxing matches to kinda absorb the subject a bit even if I don't know the technicalities of it. That's all assuming I even have interest in the subject. If I do though, then why wouldn't I want to expose myself to more of it and maybe learn a bit about it?

That's all I am saying.

I am just saying, things will never progress and people's understanding won't broaden if musicians don't use their position of "knowing a bit" to try to influence people to open their minds a little, rather than just pandering to what they think people like. I also find that when musicians do what they think people like, people don't care. They're not even paying attention. I have found that when I do what I can do with conviction, even if it's what musicians are afraid people won't like, if people actually get in front of it and see it and hear it, they always like it. Every time so far. I have never done a show doing serious music that people did not respond well to. I have done hundreds of functions and shows playing hits that everyone thinks people will like and they're not even listening. They're just chatting and using their phones. Sometimes they are dancing and partying yes, but not really caring about the music itself. That could be anything playing. They don't go to those things for the music, it's just to drink or socialise.

I think that musicians fearing presenting new things to people is just hindering the evolution of music as a subject. I am confident that if you can convince people to turn up and listen to it in the first place, they will like it if it's decent. Just getting people to accept something they're not used to is usually the problem. Once they're in though, I have never really had a bad reaction to people that have taken the time to see and hear. Most of the misdirected advice and opinions I get are usually from people who have never even listened and just assumed what you are like without actually hearing what you do, or just taking a quick 30 second look.
Old 16th September 2019
  #177
Gear Addict
 

At your budget, you should be all itb with compression. I wouldn’t touch warm or current klark technics stuff with a ten foot pole. You’ll regret it.
Old 16th September 2019
  #178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctambulant View Post
At your budget, you should be all itb with compression. I wouldn’t touch warm or current klark technics stuff with a ten foot pole. You’ll regret it.
I agree. Stay ITB and learn for a few years, then if/when you venture out you'll be ready with the skills to handle the hardware and the purchase well.
Old 16th September 2019
  #179
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctambulant View Post
At your budget, you should be all itb with compression. I wouldn’t touch warm or current klark technics stuff with a ten foot pole. You’ll regret it.
Ah I see. So it's not worth it below a certain standard price-point I guess?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpanderson80 View Post
I agree. Stay ITB and learn for a few years, then if/when you venture out you'll be ready with the skills to handle the hardware and the purchase well.
Thanks for the tips. Mainly I am doing this to get something to deliver to a big label and some sponsors in the short term with some sort of speed. So yes I am totally new to this.
Old 17th September 2019
  #180
Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
Hey sorry, I think maybe you misunderstood me a little. Maybe I didn't explain well and it seemed like I was saying every human should automatically learn about music. I didn't actually mean that. I meant IF they have strong opinions and are adamant about how right they are about any given aspect of music and IF they say things like "music is my life" and all they talk about is music, they should probably spend at least a LITTLE time learning about the subject. Otherwise they're simply not qualified to have such STRONG opinions.

If someone doesn't really care about music, then it's really fine for them to like what they like without understanding it, don't get me wrong. I just meant the people that want to come telling their opinions, etc., should probably learn a bit first. Honestly you must understand it is tiring being a musician and hearing people come giving you advice, etc., when they don't know the first thing about how music works. Hahah.

On the other hand, I know many people that don't really care about music and are aware they don't know much about it and like what they like and that's totally fine.

Also, I should clarify (which I failed to), I didn't necessarily mean people should learn about music technically. I kinda just meant at least expose themselves to more than just top 40 hits before having such strong opinions. At least give a chance to absorbing and getting used to different kinds of music before dismissing it. That's all I am saying. And that's IF people claim to be SO into music and hold strong opinions about it.

There's no way I would go telling Mike Tyson how to box unless I at least learned a bit about the subject first. Nor would I hold a strong opinion about which boxer is the best or worst, or which boxer I like, without at least learning what they're doing and how it works, at least a little. Or at least watching enough boxing matches to kinda absorb the subject a bit even if I don't know the technicalities of it. That's all assuming I even have interest in the subject. If I do though, then why wouldn't I want to expose myself to more of it and maybe learn a bit about it?

That's all I am saying.

I am just saying, things will never progress and people's understanding won't broaden if musicians don't use their position of "knowing a bit" to try to influence people to open their minds a little, rather than just pandering to what they think people like. I also find that when musicians do what they think people like, people don't care. They're not even paying attention. I have found that when I do what I can do with conviction, even if it's what musicians are afraid people won't like, if people actually get in front of it and see it and hear it, they always like it. Every time so far. I have never done a show doing serious music that people did not respond well to. I have done hundreds of functions and shows playing hits that everyone thinks people will like and they're not even listening. They're just chatting and using their phones. Sometimes they are dancing and partying yes, but not really caring about the music itself. That could be anything playing. They don't go to those things for the music, it's just to drink or socialise.

I think that musicians fearing presenting new things to people is just hindering the evolution of music as a subject. I am confident that if you can convince people to turn up and listen to it in the first place, they will like it if it's decent. Just getting people to accept something they're not used to is usually the problem. Once they're in though, I have never really had a bad reaction to people that have taken the time to see and hear. Most of the misdirected advice and opinions I get are usually from people who have never even listened and just assumed what you are like without actually hearing what you do, or just taking a quick 30 second look.
I understand - and agree with a lot of it.

The only thing I’ll say is that music, unlike having an opinion on (say) science or something else that’s factual (ie you can’t deny a given scientific phenomenon and have any weight to your opinion unless you really understand it and can argue your point!), music is largely taste. It’s fine to argue vehemently that you just like something and don’t like other things, even if you don’t understand them. Understanding - even a basic understanding - simply isn’t necessary - you listen, you get a feeling of enjoyment or not, and you listen to another piece.

The concept “if you only understood music better, you’d enjoy this song more” isn’t really a valid line of reasoning. The onus isn’t on the listener - they can be totally passive if they like. The onus is on the creator who, if they have ideas of complexity and/or that are challenging, to translate that to the listener.

Sting was relatively good at that - even if you don’t like his music, he managed to make some fairly complex ideas work in a pop context - eg odd time signatures for “7 days” and “I hung my head” (which also works as a song in 4/4 as Johnny Cash proved).

Or as I said you simply write music for the already enlightened, which will mostly be other musos which is perfectly valid too!
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