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Congrats to Drumsound
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Congrats to Drumsound

Tony SanFilippo, aka @ Drumsound has an opinion piece in the new "Tape Op" entitled "Think Like Tape." Clear thinking, really good writing. Suggest y'all check it out.

Last edited by Brent Hahn; 3 weeks ago at 04:43 PM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
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Drumsound's Avatar
Brent,

Thank so much for reading the piece. I'm really proud of it. It means a lot to me that you enjoyed it. I hope people find it helpful, or interesting.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
Brent,

Thank so much for reading the piece. I'm really proud of it. It means a lot to me that you enjoyed it. I hope people find it helpful, or interesting.
Thought-provoking for sure. Especially so coming from someone who sells time by the hour, where piling up overdubs puts more cash in your pocket. Twice, if you're mixing as well.

And FWIW, some people with budgets had a DAW mindset long before there were DAWs. When I first moved to LA I spent many a graveyard shift tracking endless overdubs onto slave tapes. A typical track sheet would be L/R Mix, 20 tracks of guitars, 23 open, 24 SMPTE.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Thought-provoking for sure. Especially so coming from someone who sells time by the hour, where piling up overdubs puts more cash in your pocket. Twice, if you're mixing as well.

And FWIW, some people with budgets had a DAW mindset long before there were DAWs. When I first moved to LA I spent many a graveyard shift tracking endless overdubs onto slave tapes. A typical track sheet would be L/R Mix, 20 tracks of guitars, 23 open, 24 SMPTE.
I know that sync allowed for such things and that a ton of records were made that way. There's a story about Whitney Houston filling a slave reel for "I will always love you" and then the producer made a comp. Then he made Whitney learn to sing the comp, and they filled ANOTHER slave reel full of takes of her singing the "comp style."
Old 3 weeks ago
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
[...]

And FWIW, some people with budgets had a DAW mindset long before there were DAWs. When I first moved to LA I spent many a graveyard shift tracking endless overdubs onto slave tapes. A typical track sheet would be L/R Mix, 20 tracks of guitars, 23 open, 24 SMPTE.
Cheer up... you might have ended up working for this guy...

Old 3 weeks ago
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Cheer up... you might have ended up working for this guy...
But I probably would have gotten more sleep.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #7
From Tony's End Rant in the June/July issue:
Quote:
I know a well-known Nashville producer who even sets his Pro Tools rig for destructive record -- there is no "undo." He also tries to convince bands that going over 24 tracks is a violation of the Musician's Union, and if they want to add more tracks they must pay a fine.


It was my normal policy not to lie to clients... but sometimes you have to serve the Greater Good.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
From Tony's End Rant in the June/July issue:

It was my normal policy not to lie to clients... but sometimes you have to serve the Greater Good.
Yeah, his reasoning is specific. I think the things a producer or directors (plays or films) will use different 'techniques" to achieve their desired results. As you say "for the greater good." I never heard back from said Nashberg cat, and I'm not sure why. That is why there isn't a name associated with the idea.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #9
Gear Guru
Yeah but what's the fun of an article. I can't troll it or start an argument. Much too civilized and makes much too much sense.....
Old 3 weeks ago
  #10
Gear Addict
 

Great article.
Every time I've read about projects with hundreds of tracks I always wondered what's going on there. I can't imagine since I have no experience of such recordings.
The song with the highest track number I've recorded had 31 tracks and, to me, it was already confusing

P.s. I've never recorded to tape
Old 3 weeks ago
  #11
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
Yeah but what's the fun of an article. I can't troll it or start an argument. Much too civilized and makes much too much sense.....
Thanks, man. I don't mind a discourse, or straight up disagreement. Its just something I've thought about a ton of times and I finally put pen to paper. Larry, John and the rest of the Tape Op family have always been great to me, and I feel like its a gift in my life to be part of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Logima View Post
Great article.
Every time I've read about projects with hundreds of tracks I always wondered what's going on there. I can't imagine since I have no experience of such recordings.
The song with the highest track number I've recorded had 31 tracks and, to me, it was already confusing

P.s. I've never recorded to tape
I wonder that too. Its a very different aesthetic, and different point of view.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #12
Gear Guru
Glad to see love for Tape Op on here!..... and congrats on a cool article, nice to hear the man behind the avatar.....
Old 3 weeks ago
  #13
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
Glad to see love for Tape Op on here!..... and congrats on a cool article, nice to hear the man behind the avatar.....
Thanks for reading and commenting.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
I wonder [about crazy track counts] too. Its a very different aesthetic, and different point of view.
There are two circumstances where I sorta get it.

One is where you want lush, layered, tuned BGV's. If you're using Autotune every track has to be one singer only. That's gonna wind up being a lot of tracks initially. But it should never arrive at the mix stage that way.

The other circumstance is string, woodwind and horn samples. I always feel like the net result is better if they're played and recorded one instrument at a time. That can also pile up in a hurry. But you can and should comp those down, too.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
There are two circumstances where I sorta get it.

One is where you want lush, layered, tuned BGV's. If you're using Autotune every track has to be one singer only. That's gonna wind up being a lot of tracks initially. But it should never arrive at the mix stage that way.

The other circumstance is string, woodwind and horn samples. I always feel like the net result is better if they're played and recorded one instrument at a time. That can also pile up in a hurry. But you can and should comp those down, too.
makes sense. The one time I mazed my PT rig out, the song had 3 part harmony, quadrupled, 8 bass viol tracks, electric and acoustic piano, a few synth and other SFX things, all in addition to the full band basics and overdubs.

Listen here
Old 3 weeks ago
  #16
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drezz's Avatar
Great article, thanks for that.

It's interesting, but i see a lot of artists now, who are looking for, and loving, the process of committing to the recording process by concentrating on performance, rather than adding all the bells and whistle and kitchen sink in the daw, ending up with loads to comp and edit and fix.
There seems to be a calibre of artist who've done all that and want to get back to basics, and work on all in one takes( or as close to as poss, minus a bit of punching in if necessary, and bouncing and moving on. Usually it's working on tape this way for sure, but also, in Pro Tools or whatever, not to keep on adding and adding. It seems a lot of great bands and artists have done the record at home or in the bands project studio, spent a year making the album, fiddled about endlessly, done a gadzillion takes, ended up after a year with a perfect, sterile thing they hate, and then come and see me or someone who takes a good sonic picture and thrash it out in a short space of time with rhythm section live and overdubs............
I see it with a lot of underground UK artists, there's very much a movement towards more classic approaches, and a rejection of the pro tools, comped, edited to **** kind of approach. Is this a hipster-ism cultural thing...........hmm, maybe a bit of that, but i just think the really great players and ensembles have naturally gravitated to it. The people who i tend o see who want to record on tape, and seek it out, seem to be at a level of expression and skill on their game, they can play and perform, so they tend to want to do it in the most straightforward and musically honest way they can......... it seems, at least in certain areas and styles, people just want to get back to simplicity and getting it in a rawer and immediate way.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #17
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Drumsound's Avatar
Thanks @ drezz
Old 3 weeks ago
  #18
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Is this the same "drumsound" that claims you need a compressor to get a fat sound? Regardless, congrats on the article !!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drezz View Post
and a rejection of the pro tools,
The problem really has more to do with thin sounding protools hardware like 002, 192 and HD. If you buy good converters , you don't need analog tape. It's not the fault of the DAW that most protool recordings sound bad. I'm not implying good digital hardware will automatically sound like an analog recording, but its a start. You will have a harder time with protools hardware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drezz View Post
comped, edited to **** kind of approach.
There is plenty of comping and editing with tape. It 's obviously not like it is today with the DAW but there was plenty of editing goign on. It is just more time consuming and requires a certain skill set.

IMO the challenge these days is to make digital recordings sound Analog. anyone at any experience level can use analog tape and make a recording sound analog. That is easy. That requires no effort. Try tricking the listener into thinking a digital recording is analog, that at least requires a little skill and some patience, but people do it everyday.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
IMO the challenge these days is to make digital recordings sound Analog. anyone at any experience level can use analog tape and make a recording sound analog. That is easy. That requires no effort. Try tricking the listener into thinking a digital recording is analog, that at least requires a little skill and some patience, but people do it everyday.
Sure, plenty of good records made digitally and sound pretty analogue, there's no disputing that, but it's not just about sound is it? The process is something that appeals, and dictates, to some extent, the outcome.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #21
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #22
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Magnus_N's Avatar
 

Thanks for the article! I enjoyed it.

/Magnus
Old 3 weeks ago
  #23
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Although the technical limitations of older gear and formats played a part, the key reason things were kept in check my opinion, was the cost of production and the fact that only 'real' producers produced records. The ability to break the song down into its most essential parts long before the record button was pressed means you don't need to record every part 100 different ways and times.

Everybody can afford a rig with hundreds of tracks in their home now and that makes them producers...so records now need hundreds of tracks and months to make. Unfortunately, telling people to "Think like tape" means little or nothing to people who have never worked with tape...or time and budget constraints. Then there is the tendency to want to use every "trick" they read about on forums, and so many modern recordings are essentially an assemblage of sounds.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #24
Gear Addict
 

It's the only way i know how to do it. Mostly I'm recording 3 - 5 piece rock type bands. Heck I can't even stand comping or even punching in guitar solos (when I'm the player), I want the solo to be one performance, just feels right. If I don't get it I retake the whole thing. I've usually only punched vocals, bass, keys and other tracks etc. I'm just recording my own stuff these days so i can do it how I like. In fact a couple months ago was the first time I ever even comped a lead vocal from multiple complete takes. Guess I'm a throwback dinosaur.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl2AySUVYGw
Old 3 weeks ago
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus_N View Post
Thanks for the article! I enjoyed it.

/Magnus
This makes me really happy. Thanks for taking the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Although the technical limitations of older gear and formats played a part, the key reason things were kept in check my opinion, was the cost of production and the fact that only 'real' producers produced records. The ability to break the song down into its most essential parts long before the record button was pressed means you don't need to record every part 100 different ways and times.

Everybody can afford a rig with hundreds of tracks in their home now and that makes them producers...so records now need hundreds of tracks and months to make. Unfortunately, telling people to "Think like tape" means little or nothing to people who have never worked with tape...or time and budget constraints. Then there is the tendency to want to use every "trick" they read about on forums, and so many modern recordings are essentially an assemblage of sounds.
You're not wrong. I think your second paragraph is addressing the same thing that Larry Crane and I first commented on that lead to the piece. The crux of the article (hopefully) it to think about what is needed, what is essential, and to "trim the fat" as part of the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tymish View Post
It's the only way i know how to do it. Mostly I'm recording 3 - 5 piece rock type bands. Heck I can't even stand comping or even punching in guitar solos (when I'm the player), I want the solo to be one performance, just feels right. If I don't get it I retake the whole thing. I've usually only punched vocals, bass, keys and other tracks etc. I'm just recording my own stuff these days so i can do it how I like. In fact a couple months ago was the first time I ever even comped a lead vocal from multiple complete takes. Guess I'm a throwback dinosaur.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl2AySUVYGw
Thanks for reading. Its nice to see people finding the value in performance,

Thanks for the King Crimson video, too. I saw that tour and it blew my mind!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #26
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drezz View Post
Great article <snip>

There seems to be a calibre of artist who've done all that and want to get back to basics, and work on all in one takes( or as close to as poss, minus a bit of punching in if necessary, and bouncing and moving on. Usually it's working on tape this way for sure, but also, in Pro Tools or whatever, not to keep on adding and adding. It seems a lot of great bands and artists have done the record at home or in the bands project studio, spent a year making the album, fiddled about endlessly, done a gadzillion takes, ended up after a year with a perfect, sterile thing they hate, and then come and see me or someone who takes a good sonic picture and thrash it out in a short space of time with rhythm section live and overdubs............
I see it with a lot of underground UK artists, there's very much a movement towards more classic approaches, and a rejection of the pro tools, comped, edited to **** kind of approach. Is this a hipster-ism cultural thing...........hmm, maybe a bit of that, but i just think the really great players and ensembles have naturally gravitated to it. The people who i tend o see who want to record on tape, and seek it out, seem to be at a level of expression and skill on their game, they can play and perform, so they tend to want to do it in the most straightforward and musically honest way they can......... it seems, at least in certain areas and styles, people just want to get back to simplicity and getting it in a rawer and immediate way.

Yes. My experience exactly. I suddenly have quite a few bands asking if they can do the "live in the studio" thing.

Have one booked next week. Should be lots of fun. Only problem is a lot of the time, the bands start second guessing their ability to "get it right" and some back out, lol.

Thumbsup @ Drumsound - I'm guessing I should have my TapeOp mag in a few days?!?! Can't wait to read the article!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #27
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
Yes. My experience exactly. I suddenly have quite a few bands asking if they can do the "live in the studio" thing.

Have one booked next week. Should be lots of fun. Only problem is a lot of the time, the bands start second guessing their ability to "get it right" and some back out, lol.

Thumbsup @ Drumsound - I'm guessing I should have my TapeOp mag in a few days?!?! Can't wait to read the article!
I'll be interested to hear your take on it.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #28
Good article. I like the fine idea.

Those of us of who grew up with limitations have a little advantage, but that doesn't mean they can't implemented today. Too many options can kill creativity, makes it hard on the listener and the mixer!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
Yes. My experience exactly. I suddenly have quite a few bands asking if they can do the "live in the studio" thing.
Most of the records I produce are made this way, especially when working with certain styles...reggae, blues, rock & roll and jazz. No other method can groove better than a tight rhythm section playing together.

Thing is though many players these days play with the do-over in mind.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #30
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robby in WA View Post
Good article. I like the fine idea.

Those of us of who grew up with limitations have a little advantage, but that doesn't mean they can't implemented today. Too many options can kill creativity, makes it hard on the listener and the mixer!
Good point! The last thing I want is a record that is hard for the listener to listen to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Most of the records I produce are made this way, especially when working with certain styles...reggae, blues, rock & roll and jazz. No other method can groove better than a tight rhythm section playing together.

Thing is though many players these days play with the do-over in mind.
I don't mind a do over scenario. Its the "how about we add this, and then this ad nauseam" never having a vision. That's where the tape mentality comes in. "lets keep this, lets lose that." I think getting rid of things can be so useful for moving forward.
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