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Congrats to Drumsound
Old 3 weeks ago
  #91
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
I do try to get a feel for what the artist wants and needs from me before the session. Being a one man shop, I do imply that I'm producing unless told otherwise. I know there are people who've not booked based on that, and others who've booked because of that.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #92
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
When there is the artist and literally one guy running the studio (in my case) its pretty clear. You can usually tell in initial tours and meeting how the sesion needs to be run.
It's only clear when it's said.

I have worked for years with a famous blues singer and guitarist, I do his live sound and record and mix a lot of his work. We are always recording in studios and hotel rooms all over the world and he's usually working with his long time producer or producing himself. Then out of the blue he asked me to produce and record a song of his, it went so well and record label liked it so much that they asked me to do another, and another, until we did most of the album which was nominated for a grammy. All the critics liked the songs I produced, recorded and mixed and the album was very successful.

He didn't ask me to produce the next record but I did record and mix some of the songs, but we're already talking about the next record, he wants me to produce that one when he's ready. My principle of never assuming the role of producer was always adhered to, despite our friendship and good working relationship, and we were often working alone in a studio or hotel room.

Whenever I'm proposed work, live or in the studio, my first order of business is to establish what my specific duties and responsibilities are...I charge based on this and I don't have to guess about my role which greatly reduces the chance of misunderstanding.

Last edited by Samc; 3 weeks ago at 09:19 PM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #93
Gear Guru
 
monkeyxx's Avatar
I sat in on a session like this before. I could absolutely feel the tension. I was very aware of my position and I only made one or two comments when I was damn sure that they were relevant and accurate.

When you're in a room full of strangers and maybe one person you know, with money and time being spent, silence is golden.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #94
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
It's only clear when it's said.

I have worked for years with a famous blues singer and guitarist, I do his live sound and record and mix a lot of his work. We are always recording in studios and hotel rooms all over the world and he's usually working with his long time producer or producing himself. Then out of the blue he asked me to produce and record a song of his, it went so well and record label liked it so much that they asked me to do another, and another, until we did most of the album which was nominated for a grammy. All the critics liked the songs I produced, recorded and mixed and the album was very successful.

He didn't ask me to produce the next record but I did record and mix some of the songs, but we're already talking about the next record, he wants me to produce that one when he's ready. My principle of never assuming the role of producer was always adhered to, despite our friendship and good working relationship, and we were often working alone in a studio or hotel room.

Whenever I'm proposed work, live or in the studio, my first order of business is to establish what my specific duties and responsibilities are...I charge based on this and I don't have to guess about my role which greatly reduces the chance of misunderstanding.
I hope you guys win a Grammy together! Great story.
Chris
Old 3 weeks ago
  #95
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
It's only clear when it's said.

I have worked for years with a famous blues singer and guitarist, I do his live sound and record and mix a lot of his work. We are always recording in studios and hotel rooms all over the world and he's usually working with his long time producer or producing himself. Then out of the blue he asked me to produce and record a song of his, it went so well and record label liked it so much that they asked me to do another, and another, until we did most of the album which was nominated for a grammy. All the critics liked the songs I produced, recorded and mixed and the album was very successful.

He didn't ask me to produce the next record but I did record and mix some of the songs, but we're already talking about the next record, he wants me to produce that one when he's ready. My principle of never assuming the role of producer was always adhered to, despite our friendship and good working relationship, and we were often working alone in a studio or hotel room.

Whenever I'm proposed work, live or in the studio, my first order of business is to establish what my specific duties and responsibilities are...I charge based on this and I don't have to guess about my role which greatly reduces the chance of misunderstanding.
Transparency is good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
I hope you guys win a Grammy together! Great story.
Chris
Agreed!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #96
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
I hope you guys win a Grammy together! Great story.
Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
Agreed!
Thanks guys.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #97
Lives for gear
 

This thread, the High End thread where Henry got his 44 and Bock 251, along with Big Buddha's idea of starting a "Keeping a Studio Open" thread...

Are my three favorites recently. (quite a few other excellent threads though!)

Also Klaus has been posting much fantastic info n' insights lately too...
Chris
Old 3 weeks ago
  #98
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
This thread, the High End thread where Henry got his 44 and Bock 251, along with Big Buddha's idea of starting a "Keeping a Studio Open" thread...

Are my three favorites recently. (quite a few other excellent threads though!)

Also Klaus has been posting much fantastic info n' insights lately too...
Chris
It's almost shades of what this place once was.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #99
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

What never gets mentioned today is arrangers. Back when musicians actually got paid, the arranger played a key role in completing four songs within the budget in three hours. While session musicians improvised many of their parts, this was still within the framework of an actual arrangement including melodic elements such as bass lines. A brilliant arranger named Owen Bradley even told engineers where to place the microphones. He went on to become one of the world's top producers and launched Nashville as a major popular music recording center.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #100
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
Is this the same "drumsound" that claims you need a compressor to get a fat sound? Regardless, congrats on the article !!
it's always nice when a thread refuses to feed the trolls.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #101
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by themiracle View Post
it's always nice when a thread refuses to feed the trolls.
I blocked that guy a long time ago. He trolls sites and is nasty.....

Anyway, the resurgence of analogue tools and workflow to adapt to the perfect mirror of the digital age is wonderful. Having grown up with tape, I don't miss the inherent problems. The whole culture however did engender discipline since there were serious limitations and studio time was expensive.

We are so fortunate now to have the offerings both analogue and digital. Back in the day, you didn't have all the choices on offer these days. That you can get an amazing analogue chain for less than $1K is insane. Even on the instrument sign of things, choices galore.... Never been a better time to make music!.....

I loved the scene in the Johnny Cash movie where he had 5 minutes to impress the radio guy. The discipline of those guys to come in record a record in a few hours was essential. Norbert Putnam wrote a very cool book about what those sessions were like, and we're lucky to have people on here who have lived it.....
Old 2 weeks ago
  #102
Gear Guru
 
monkeyxx's Avatar
Just to hop in on the Troll Shaming I also blocked "that person" a long time ago. Well not a block but an ignore. It's the best you can do on gearslutz.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #103
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
What never gets mentioned today is arrangers. Back when musicians actually got paid, the arranger played a key role in completing four songs within the budget in three hours. While session musicians improvised many of their parts, this was still within the framework of an actual arrangement including melodic elements such as bass lines. A brilliant arranger named Owen Bradley even told engineers where to place the microphones. He went on to become one of the world's top producers and launched Nashville as a major popular music recording center.
Of course that is a HUGE thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
I blocked that guy a long time ago. He trolls sites and is nasty.....

Anyway, the resurgence of analogue tools and workflow to adapt to the perfect mirror of the digital age is wonderful. Having grown up with tape, I don't miss the inherent problems. The whole culture however did engender discipline since there were serious limitations and studio time was expensive.

We are so fortunate now to have the offerings both analogue and digital. Back in the day, you didn't have all the choices on offer these days. That you can get an amazing analogue chain for less than $1K is insane. Even on the instrument sign of things, choices galore.... Never been a better time to make music!.....

I loved the scene in the Johnny Cash movie where he had 5 minutes to impress the radio guy. The discipline of those guys to come in record a record in a few hours was essential. Norbert Putnam wrote a very cool book about what those sessions were like, and we're lucky to have people on here who have lived it.....
Its really a golden age of good sounding affordable gear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by themiracle View Post
it's always nice when a thread refuses to feed the trolls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
Just to hop in on the Troll Shaming I also blocked "that person" a long time ago. Well not a block but an ignore. It's the best you can do on gearslutz.
YUP
Old 2 weeks ago
  #104
Lives for gear
Read the artical. Well done. I had a set of 4 ADATS as my first tracking system past a 2 track casset deck. ADAT's were a godsend allowing me to get into tracking bands without the cost of 2" tape.

I became hell on wheels punching in vocals using a BRC. I never comped, but I would punch (Distructivly) all the time. I even got to the point where setting up preroll and postroll did not even need a dry run. Pick the points...Punch.

I would alway hear the phrase "Fix it in the mix". In my mind I would think, you can't fix broken tracks. Eventually I did find a tool that would salvage some poorly recorded tracks. The TCE M5000. I called that the "Unsuck button". That was my first unit that could do anything (EQ, Compress, Good reverb, etc..). I bounced many tracks through it.

And there was the other side of that coin. "Real men don'e use EQ" Implying that the right source and mic are all that's needed. Almost never works in practice.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #105
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by elegentdrum View Post
Read the artical. Well done. I had a set of 4 ADATS as my first tracking system past a 2 track casset deck. ADAT's were a godsend allowing me to get into tracking bands without the cost of 2" tape.

I became hell on wheels punching in vocals using a BRC. I never comped, but I would punch (Distructivly) all the time. I even got to the point where setting up preroll and postroll did not even need a dry run. Pick the points...Punch.

I would alway hear the phrase "Fix it in the mix". In my mind I would think, you can't fix broken tracks. Eventually I did find a tool that would salvage some poorly recorded tracks. The TCE M5000. I called that the "Unsuck button". That was my first unit that could do anything (EQ, Compress, Good reverb, etc..). I bounced many tracks through it.

And there was the other side of that coin. "Real men don'e use EQ" Implying that the right source and mic are all that's needed. Almost never works in practice.
We used a momentary pedal to punch until we had the BRC.

I was once punched a sixteenth late in a guitar solo. It actually worked and made the beat sound like eighth and 2 sixteenths. Punching is just drumming!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #106
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
We used a momentary pedal to punch until we had the BRC.

I was once punched a sixteenth late in a guitar solo. It actually worked and made the beat sound like eighth and 2 sixteenths. Punching is just drumming!
I would usually tap the subdivisions next to the red button when punching in and out to make sure i was in time.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #107
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tymish View Post
I would usually tap the subdivisions next to the red button when punching in and out to make sure i was in time.
That's the thing... if you're in time, you're late.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #108
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
That's the thing... if you're in time, you're late.
Sure, it gets really challenging when you get to 16th notes at higher tempos or tighter divisions. Of course I would have to anticipate the beat and get in a hair early.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #109
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tymish View Post
I would usually tap the subdivisions next to the red button when punching in and out to make sure i was in time.
I've done that a million times!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
That's the thing... if you're in time, you're late.
You go one subdivision before the punch point.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #110
Lives for gear
 
Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
That's the thing... if you're in time, you're late.

Yeah that's quite true.

One of the tips I learned from my mentor when I first started assisting is to punch on the OFF beat and NOT on the down beat.

In other words, don't punch on the 1/2/3 or the 4. Punch on the "and" instead.

Always worked for me. Never missed a punch after learning that technique. I do prefer splicing in the DAW though. Less pressure.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #111
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
Yeah that's quite true.

One of the tips I learned from my mentor when I first started assisting is to punch on the OFF beat and NOT on the down beat.

In other words, don't punch on the 1/2/3 or the 4. Punch on the "and" instead.

Always worked for me. Never missed a punch after learning that technique. I do prefer splicing in the DAW though. Less pressure.
Yep, punch on And or even Ah if the machine reacts quickly.

I never did a lot of splicing on the 2", but every time I did, I was always super stressed. I agree that DAW splicing is where its at!!!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #112
Lives for gear
 
Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
Yep, punch on And or even Ah if the machine reacts quickly.

I never did a lot of splicing on the 2", but every time I did, I was always super stressed. I agree that DAW splicing is where its at!!!

Yep. 100%. My machine was super fast. ;0)

Never did any punches on a 2" either but I did a crap ton on Mackie and Alesis HDR's.

I always used "and" for quarter and eighth notes and "ah" for punching 16th's.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #113
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
Yep. 100%. My machine was super fast. ;0)

Never did any punches on a 2" either but I did a crap ton on Mackie and Alesis HDR's.

I always used "and" for quarter and eighth notes and "ah" for punching 16th's.
I punched on my analog machines all the time. Its just another drum to me.
Old 1 week ago
  #114
Lives for gear
 
Sigma's Avatar
Lol on punching..I did some sessions with Billy Preston..on a particular one he wanted to do punch ins..there was so much sheeit going on hanging over etc..I was ready to sweat..but I go..Billy it's a cluster fawk..I'm going to roll back , play along and I'll try to feel an in out..3 sections.. tape.. didn't miss a punch or it's feel..it definitely takes two..his timing and sense of changes made it work..he was the artist I was a humble robot.
If his timing or sense of structure was off no matter how good I was it would never had worked..bottom line an engineer is only as good (in the public eyes) as the team he/she works with..haha..I just looked up changes on YOUTUBE..listen to his organ part and you get an idea what a studio eng had to deal with if he had to punch in on that.a cluster

Last edited by Sigma; 1 week ago at 09:49 PM..
Old 1 week ago
  #115
Lives for gear
 

As you know, Billy also had a terrific voice, and in his prime a fine dancer too!
Chris
Old 1 week ago
  #116
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
Lol on punching..I did some sessions with Billy Preston..on a particular one he wanted to do punch ins..there was so much sheeit going on hanging over etc..I was ready to sweat..but I go..Billy it's a cluster fawk..I'm going to roll back , play along and I'll try to feel an in out..3 sections.. tape.. didn't miss a punch or it's feel..it definitely takes two..his timing and sense of changes made it work..he was the artist I was a humble robot.
If his timing or sense of structure was off no matter how good I was it would never had worked..bottom line an engineer is only as good (in the public eyes) as the team he/she works with..haha..I just looked up changes on YOUTUBE..listen to his organ part and you get an idea what a studio eng had to deal with if he had to punch in on that.a cluster
That's a really good point. Giving good preroll so the artist is in the groove, and the artist having the ability to "jump into" the groove like that is really important. Its much easier with singers (generally, but not always) because breaths give you a good place to get in or out of their parts.
Old 1 week ago
  #117
Lives for gear
 
Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
That's a really good point. Giving good preroll so the artist is in the groove, and the artist having the ability to "jump into" the groove like that is really important. Its much easier with singers (generally, but not always) because breaths give you a good place to get in or out of their parts.
you wind up working with 2 types of artists..the ones who like to set into the groove and the others that want to be dropped in a line before the punch.. whatever works ..something that all us who did label work had to know/suss out or you were dirt..a good engineer adapts..
Old 1 week ago
  #118
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
you wind up working with 2 types of artists..the ones who like to set into the groove and the others that want to be dropped in a line before the punch.. whatever works ..something that all us who did label work had to know/suss out or you were dirt..a good engineer adapts..
Even down here in the Trenches, that is true.
Old 1 week ago
  #119
Lives for gear
 
Silvertone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
That's the thing... if you're in time, you're late.
Yep, always on the “and” in between the time signature. I only tapped on the ands so I wouldn’t miss the punch.
Old 1 week ago
  #120
Lives for gear
 
b0se's Avatar
Great article and thread, thanks.

Reminds me of my dad's old email signature (quote by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry):

Quote:
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Being a coder, he loved that. He was a *really* good coder too. Love him to bits. I didn't even realise it at the time, but that email signature burned into my brain and became a subconscious mantra during my years in coding, graphic design, photography and now music :¬)
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