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New Gospel Musicians privacy policy - the new norm?
Old 18th May 2019
  #1
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New Gospel Musicians privacy policy - the new norm?

Gospel Musicians has implemented a new privacy policy. I can't sign into my existing account now, unless I consent to several pages of legaleze about how they're entitled to do whatever they want with my private info.

Go to this page: [url]https://gospelmusicians.com/?target=profile&mode=register
And click on the "my personal info" link.

This is a new low, and I sure as hell hope this doesn't become a new industry standard. Let's not let that happen!
Old 18th May 2019
  #2
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by seacouch View Post
I can't sign into my existing account now, unless I consent to several pages of legaleze about how they're entitled to do whatever they want with my private info.
And they seem to want all of it. Wow.

As stated in the Book of Samuel (L. Jackson), it's enough to make a person want to Strike Down Upon Them With Furious Anger.
Old 18th May 2019
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
And they seem to want all of it. Wow.

As stated in the Book of Samuel (L. Jackson), it's enough to make a person want to Strike Down Upon Them With Furious Anger.
Yep. I like some of their products, but at that price? NO THANKS.
Old 18th May 2019
  #4
Thank God (no pun intended) for an open market. Just take your business elsewhere until the right their wrong
Old 18th May 2019
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
Thank God (no pun intended) for an open market. Just take your business elsewhere until the right their wrong
Done, and done.
Old 18th May 2019
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
Thank God (no pun intended) for an open market. Just take your business elsewhere until the right their wrong
But, I believe there's a larger issue here. Can we rely on open market to create the best privacy policies? Gospel Musicians is raising the bar. They probably won't be the last to try this tactic. It certainly makes sense from a business standpoint, but sends a terrible customer service message.
Old 18th May 2019
  #7
Quote:
They probably won't be the last to try this tactic.
But if its turning off their customer base, their bottom line will suffer and then they will be forced to change it. Business want to attract customers, not turn them away, so maybe they will see their errors if they look at this quarter's financials and see it decreased due to their new policy

Time will tell
Old 18th May 2019
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
Business want to attract customers, not turn them away, so maybe they will see their errors if they look at this quarter's financials and see it decreased due to their new policy.
But who are their real customers? Looks to me like they're the buyers of pre-sifted confidential data.
Old 18th May 2019
  #9
Interesting. It's sort of like Facebook -- only without all the little checkboxes for members to limit info/sharing permissions.

Obviously, it's about e-commerce and customer info marketing.

The tracking-monitor/control browser extension I use in Chrome (Privacy Badger) found 6 tracking sites -- Doubleclick, Facebook, Google, Gstatic, something called cdn-qualiteamsoftwar[dot]netdna-ssl[dot]com, and an 'online marketing' company called Sumo that Privacy Badger automatically fully blocks.

I also note that someplace along the line a number of typographical and grammar errors snuck in -- a bit unusual in a professionally prepared, public-facing legal contract. I'd hope. But the 'art' of proofreading seems to be rapidly being forgotten.


I think the sections regarding the legal rights of citizens of the EU and (separately) those of California are fairly instructive with regard to the potential benefit of such once-thought-to-be 'draconian' privacy laws like those in the EU and California.
Old 18th May 2019
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Privacy Badger

Just installed it. Thanks for the tip!
Old 19th May 2019
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by seacouch View Post
Just installed it. Thanks for the tip!
I like it because you can change the settings depending on the site you are currently visiting. It's not just all on or all off; you can get as granular as you like, pretty much. That way, I can make sure my favorite sites aren't losing out on legitimate advertising revenue while still protecting myself from third party tracking/snooping.
Old 19th May 2019
  #12
Gear Maniac
 

Yeah -- that's pretty draconian. Here are some of my favorites:

Quote:
All payment data is stored by our payment processor and you should review its privacy policies and contact the payment processor directly to respond to your questions.
Translation: We're going to take your payment information and pray our payment vendor is really, really good at storing that data. But, if someone hacks their database and buys a home, car, expensive watch, well, oopsie...


To be fair, they list "PayPa" as their invoicing and billing vendor, so that's a plus.

Quote:
We will use the [social media account] information we receive only for the purposes that are described in this privacy policy or that are otherwise made clear to you on the Sites. Please note that we do not control, and are not responsible for, other uses of your personal information by your third-party social media provider. We recommend that you review their privacy policy to understand how they collect, use and share your personal information, and how you can set your privacy preferences on their sites and apps.
Translation: We're going to take the social media account information you provide to us and just assume our website is secure and doesn't use some unpatched, public domain tool that can be easily exploited by a 10 year-old. And if they do, well, you've consented to all this and have no legal recourse.

Quote:
We may obtain information about you from other sources, such as public databases, joint partners, social media platforms (such as Facebook), as well as from other third parties. Examples of the information we receive from other sources include: social media profile information (your name, gender, birthdate, email, current city, state, and country, user identification numbers for your contacts, profile picture URL and any other information that you choose to make public); marketing leads and search results and links, including paid listings (such as sponsored links).
Translation: *may* obtain? LMAO!!! Oh yeah -- I'VE GOT YOUR NAME! I'VE GOT YOUR NUMBER! I'VE GOT YOUR ASS!

Quote:
Most web browsers and some mobile operating systems and mobile applications include a Do-Not-Track (“DNT”) feature of setting you can activate to signal your privacy preference not to have data about your online browsing activities monitored and collected. No uniform technology standard for recognizing and implementing DNT signals has been finalized. As such, we do not currently respond to DNT browser signals or any other mechanism that automatically communicated your choice not to be tracked online. If a standard for online tracking is adopted that we must follow in the future, we will inform you about that practice in a revised version of this Privacy Policy.
Translation: Oh yes, We Will Track You. In fact, we're tracking you right now.
Old 19th May 2019
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpl. Punishment View Post
Yeah -- that's pretty draconian. Here are some of my favorites:



Translation: We're going to take your payment information and pray our payment vendor is really, really good at storing that data. But, if someone hacks their database and buys a home, car, expensive watch, well, oopsie...


To be fair, they list "PayPa" as their invoicing and billing vendor, so that's a plus.



Translation: We're going to take the social media account information you provide to us and just assume our website is secure and doesn't use some unpatched, public domain tool that can be easily exploited by a 10 year-old. And if they do, well, you've consented to all this and have no legal recourse.



Translation: *may* obtain? LMAO!!! Oh yeah -- I'VE GOT YOUR NAME! I'VE GOT YOUR NUMBER! I'VE GOT YOUR ASS!



Translation: Oh yes, We Will Track You. In fact, we're tracking you right now.


I'm going to go take a long hot shower and I didn't even get past the TOS page.


I hadn't looked at the whole thing. The PayPa thing is over-the-top hilarious.

(Unless their payment processor really is PayPa, in which case, kinda scary, I'd say. Though I do rather like the name. 'Hey, Dad, I'm stuck in jail, could you ...')

I mean, the typo -- on an really key piece of info -- is right out there, quite obvious in large, bold print and more or less all by itself, not surrounded in text, right there where even a severely hungover, demiliterate proofreader would be certain to see it.


I actually hope someone from the site sees this thread -- assuming the venture is at least a halfway legit business -- and figures out that whatever lawyer or web consultant they paid to do their terms of service saw them the hell coming. Wow.
Old 19th May 2019
  #14
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All that site has done is specify everything for every situation a low-life consumer might try to hit them with. Some of what I read is stuff required in notifications now via those three laws that went unto place two years ago...one of which was/is that complicated loophole law regarding businesses having your email (even though you gave it to them).

So one doesn't like obeying house rules when walking into someone else's house? Tough. Don't visit the house.

As to the comment that "they" have "your" credit card info and that somehow (by virtue of clearly specifying the processor's role) equates to some scenario that "someone" can get "your" money,.... I'm dealing with an 11-yr old right? Futile for me to mention "who" gets screwed in a bad credit card transaction. Hint...you don't own the card...and you don't own the bank that insures that card in your pocket. Someone'll explain to you when you're twelve.

Looks like this outfit sells stuff. I thought you were all bellyaching about some entity where you submit stuff you write or something.....which would be equally stupid for one to bellyache about if randomly throwing stuff out there.

I've been in dozens of court cases and from the angle of having complete disclaimer info to dissuade morons (and to fulfill new regs), looks like they had a good lawyer hammer out stuff to protect them.

Buy somewhere else if the layout of the logic doesn't sit right with you.
Old 19th May 2019
  #15
How anyone could think any of their data is private and of any value in 2019 is beyond me. It's all out there people - there's no fighting it. Even armed with generous and consumer friendly terms of service, your data is in the hand of so many ramdom small and large companies that there is no real protection - all it takes is one breach or a disgruntled employee with access and it's out there. Also, a privacy policy isn't a magic spell - the company can still violate it and sell your data to anyone or they could be purchased by a different company etc. The possibilities are endless.
Old 19th May 2019
  #16
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoodle View Post
So one doesn't like obeying house rules when walking into someone else's house? Tough. Don't visit the house.

As to the comment that "they" have "your" credit card info and that somehow (by virtue of clearly specifying the processor's role) equates to some scenario that "someone" can get "your" money,.... I'm dealing with an 11-yr old right? Futile for me to mention "who" gets screwed in a bad credit card transaction. Hint...you don't own the card...and you don't own the bank that insures that card in your pocket.
Look, I don't want to get off on a rant here, but it sounds like that was written by a nineteen-year-old who's been avidly watching Judge Judy for their entire life.

First, nobody complains about the house rules when they make sense and have a clearly defined, reasonable purpose. It's when those rules become *unreasonable* things start to fall apart, especially when you have a vested interest and/or necessity to enter said house and the rules are as arbitrary as they are inappelant.

Second, it must be very nice in your world, so blissfully unaware of how expensive fraud is for you. Rather than explain it (which you probably wouldn't understand but would argue about it anyway), let me just ask: all those cases of financial fraud where a credit card is obtained through purloined data -- how do you think the banks and credit card companies recoup their losses? Don't answer; it was a rhetorical question but here's a hint: they do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
How anyone could think any of their data is private and of any value in 2019 is beyond me.
Okay. But if your data is of no value, why bother collecting it in the first place?
Old 19th May 2019
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoodle View Post
All that site has done is specify everything for every situation a low-life consumer might try to hit them with. Some of what I read is stuff required in notifications now via those three laws that went unto place two years ago...one of which was/is that complicated loophole law regarding businesses having your email (even though you gave it to them).

So one doesn't like obeying house rules when walking into someone else's house? Tough. Don't visit the house.

As to the comment that "they" have "your" credit card info and that somehow (by virtue of clearly specifying the processor's role) equates to some scenario that "someone" can get "your" money,.... I'm dealing with an 11-yr old right? Futile for me to mention "who" gets screwed in a bad credit card transaction. Hint...you don't own the card...and you don't own the bank that insures that card in your pocket. Someone'll explain to you when you're twelve.

Looks like this outfit sells stuff. I thought you were all bellyaching about some entity where you submit stuff you write or something.....which would be equally stupid for one to bellyache about if randomly throwing stuff out there.

I've been in dozens of court cases and from the angle of having complete disclaimer info to dissuade morons (and to fulfill new regs), looks like they had a good lawyer hammer out stuff to protect them.

Buy somewhere else if the layout of the logic doesn't sit right with you.
Here's the part that immediately set off my alarms: I already have an account with this vendor. I've been doing business with them for a few years. But now they decide to change horses mid-stream. I can no longer log into my account without consenting to that waiver. And apparently, I can no longer get customer service on products I've already purchased, unless I sign the waiver. I'm no lawyer, but that jumped out at me as soon as I read it - smells fishy as hell.
Old 19th May 2019
  #18
Agreed that TOS and other such provider/user contracts HAVE to get into the weeds to cover all the angles.

My comments were more directed to the incredibly sloppy, slapdash, haphazard presentation of the contract. I'm no lawyer -- but I can sniff out what certainly looks and feels like a half-assed, badly mangled rip of a boilerplate contract. Like I suggested, someone got burned here and it was whoever paid for the writing/presentation of the document in question.
Old 19th May 2019
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seacouch View Post
Here's the part that immediately set off my alarms: I already have an account with this vendor. I've been doing business with them for a few years. But now they decide to change horses mid-stream. I can no longer log into my account without consenting to that waiver. And apparently, I can no longer get customer service on products I've already purchased, unless I sign the waiver. I'm no lawyer, but that jumped out at me as soon as I read it - smells fishy as hell.
Disclosure regulations went into effect two years ago. A lot of stuff is waiver stuff now.. mostly having come about because people are historically so stupid.

Some stupid types routinely get so worked up that they call lawyers. Lawyers (the stupid type and the smart type I've litigated against) make their living....in many instances.....from situations where filings are made over contractual "you didn't tell me that stuff" type things. Expensive for businesses to routinely deal with.

The gospel buddies company has simply spelled out as much detailed terms as possible. Wards off morons, wards off stupid phone/email time-wasting situations, and wards off litiguous morons who range the gamut from guys who try to con a biz out of a transaction ...to morons who look for loopholes to possibly get an attention seeking attorney involved in stuff that wasn't in fine print.

There are no red flags in there.
Old 19th May 2019
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpl. Punishment View Post




Okay. But if your data is of no value, why bother collecting it in the first place?
So they can target ads to me - big deal. It's better seeing relevant ads than irrelevant ones.
Old 19th May 2019
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Agreed that TOS and other such provider/user contracts HAVE to get into the weeds to cover all the angles.

My comments were more directed to the incredibly sloppy, slapdash, haphazard presentation of the contract. I'm no lawyer -- but I can sniff out what certainly looks and feels like a half-assed, badly mangled rip of a boilerplate contract. Like I suggested, someone got burned here and it was whoever paid for the writing/presentation of the document in question.
Pardon me for quoting myself -- but it's hard to get past the 'irony' of a bunch of unwashed, un-lawyered-up musicians catching the typos in this while NO ONE INVOLVED IN THE COMPANY -- or the presumed lawyers behind the drafting of the TOS contract -- has apparently noticed or corrected them.

Think about THAT.
Old 19th May 2019
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
So they can target ads to me - big deal. It's better seeing relevant ads than irrelevant ones.
Right, and if you've done nothing wrong, then who needs to worry about privacy?
Old 19th May 2019
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoodle View Post
Disclosure regulations went into effect two years ago. A lot of stuff is waiver stuff now.. mostly having come about because people are historically so stupid.

-----

There are no red flags in there.
I have seen these kind of disclosure agreements - they are very common. It's the implementation - the way that gospel guys rolled it out - that ruffled my feathers. Maybe I'm just being silly? Judging from this thread, it's at least debatable.
Old 19th May 2019
  #24
With regard to these types of use agreements, some of the clauses may seem invasive -- but a good TOS for consumer users should probably err on the side of caution in explaining just WHY they need what they need. For instance, many sites sublease space or bandwidth from other B2B (business-to-business) providers -- and that's one (legit) reason they might need to get user assent to such a third party sharing arrangement.

But a smart company will take pains to explain such an arrangement in a way consumer users can understand so that they don't think (for instance) their songs (or other IP being stored/streamed/whatevered) are being somehow stolen out from under them.

Last edited by theblue1; 19th May 2019 at 10:14 PM.. Reason: trying to get rid of the insipid 'reason for editing' BS -- LOL ... leaving it blank doesn't work
Old 19th May 2019
  #25
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I’ve moved on from their products, but, my CS experience with them always revealed a sort of passive aggressive jeckle and Hyde situation depending on whom of the two guys who apparently are the only employees/owners I got..

I suspect someone got in their ear about EU stuff... but, while they could’ve handled the roll out better to existing customers, how they did it (and the spelling errors) don’t surprise me... I suspect to see a lot more of this sort of thing until there’s more parity between the EUs take on policing the internet and the US’s very 1800’s let the railroad tycoons figure out how to police themselves approach...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #26
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Edited
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