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Microphones With Noticeable Proximity & Silky Neumann Type Sound
Old 4 weeks ago
  #31
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo3 View Post
The word “still” is doing some heavy lifting and “original” is n/a.
Not at all - look at the history.

The Neumann factory was trapped behind the iron curtain after the war, though it remained in Neumann hands until the 1960's. It was eventually stolen by the State and forced to change the name.

After the iron curtain came down it was restored to the original owners.

It is still the original 1928 company and still has all the Neumann history up until the point it was stolen.

The family of Neumann's original employees are still in charge.

The newer 1946 company made the post-war microphones and that company was sold to Sennheiser at the end of the last century.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #32
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John, back here in reality Neumann is Neumann.

“Still” is doing heavy lifting because Gefell was several different names over the years. Back when I started recording most of the Gefell mics were labeled “RFT”. Because they were not “Gefell” and they were not “Neumann”. That is why using the word “still” is kind of a joke.

The ancestors of Neumann, aren’t the original owners! The original owner is dead.

There is only one company that made any of the classic mics, and that’s Neumann. The real one.

The Gefell mics just started coming in after the wall fell, and they were not that great but shops could sell them for high prices because of the remote association with Neumann...even though they hadn’t ever produced a single one of the major classic Neumann mics out of there.

I think it is really sad the way that gear pimps like yourself have tried so hard to manipulate public perception about the reality of the situation, in order to sell lesser quality mics for a cost that they never commanded. I say this as the former owner of a couple UM70s, who at one point was misguided into the fanciful BS. And I have used just about every damn Gefell model several times over the years as well. Though that is beside the point.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #33
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It is interesting how much internet propaganda is gradually shaping so much of the outlooks about gear nowadays.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #34
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It is also dishonest to call Neumann the “newer 1964” company. Neumann Berlin is the original Neumann, where it all started. Shifting locations in Berlin after being bombed doesn’t suddenly make the second “Neumann” that was ultimately confiscated and operated under the iron curtain, the original Neumann.

Maybe your BS tactics help you sell gear, but they also probably alienate anyone who has been at it enough to know that you’re spouting a salesman line of BS and distorted fact.

But probably most practically relevant to users out there is that getting GEFELL gear serviced is a total pain in the ass, as they don’t have a current US distributor through their poor business practices.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #35
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Which actual Neumann mics are 'silky'? It's not an adjective I'd apply to the U87 for instance.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peller View Post
Which actual Neumann mics are 'silky'? It's not an adjective I'd apply to the U87 for instance.
After I sent my 67 to Klaus it came back silky. The 107 is silky. The 149 is sort of silky.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #37
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FWIW Toledo even if John W. is mistaken, regarding "the history"...

He'd never knowingly deceive anyone IMHO.
Chris
Old 4 weeks ago
  #38
I'd describe the FET U47 as silky, maybe it's just me but I think of valve mics, or a Ribbon mic like RCA.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
FWIW Toledo even if John W. is mistaken, regarding "the history"...

He'd never knowingly deceive anyone IMHO.
Chris
That’s fair enough. I think people can look at facts sometimes and just get caught up in wishful thinking so much that it colors the interpretation.

My motive in saying anything at all is just out of “been there done that” and if anything I think that the actual Neumann company doesn’t get the respect deserved for their standard of quality and even their attempting to revisit the past with some popular reissues.

You rarely see Gefell get raked over the coals for changing the UM70 to transformerless for instance.

Ultimately we give advice based on our experiences. If I had a time machine I would go back in time and get myself to invest in more Neumann mics sooner along, not waste time having sold some I did to go sideways into other things, etc.

There’s a kind of indie cred vs the man context invoked, as though Gefell has the authenticity and Neumann is “the man” because they were bought by Sennheiser. It’s just weird though because Neumann is the same shop they were even for their corporate overlords. That’s pretty cool. It’s pretty cool that they make really nice versions of the 47fet and 67 now too. Several of their other models are great. It will be a sad day if they are ever not able to stay in business, and the recording arts would be irreparably harmed. So I just like to share the pro-Neumann perspective, because it’s really what I believe.

As far as the Gefell M7 goes...I think it’s more velvety than silky :-) It has a kind of beef in the low mids that can be bordering on too much, and the top end is kind of smoothed off in a way that is not as airy as a k47. But it really depends on the condition of the MG mic, as the capsules are pretty variable. The Theirsch capsules both seem to get a little more air, but still have that emphasis in the low mids.

It’s a good and useful tone, but it’s really not the tone of any of the classic Neumann models. Neither Gefell nor Theirsch really makes M7s the same way they used to, though they are nice capsules...and by the time so many of the classic records people think about were being made many mics that had come with original M7s had already been replaced with k47s as part of normal service.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pencilextremist View Post
I'd describe the FET U47 as silky, maybe it's just me but I think of valve mics, or a Ribbon mic like RCA.
The new u47fet through my v78m gives me goosebumps. I know that sounds over the top but whatever, I can have an opinion too I think, lol. It’s not a tube u47, but it’s easy to overlook how great it is that these are being made again.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo3 View Post
The new u47fet through my v78m gives me goosebumps. I know that sounds over the top but whatever, I can have an opinion too I think, lol. It’s not a tube u47, but it’s easy to overlook how great it is that these are being made again.
yes the FET 47 (reissue) is amazing sounding, neumann got it down to perfection, it's not over the top, just an incredible mic, wish I could afford one though
Old 4 weeks ago
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo3 View Post
John, back here in reality Neumann is Neumann.

“Still” is doing heavy lifting because Gefell was several different names over the years. Back when I started recording most of the Gefell mics were labeled “RFT”. Because they were not “Gefell” and they were not “Neumann”. That is why using the word “still” is kind of a joke.

The ancestors of Neumann, aren’t the original owners! The original owner is dead.

There is only one company that made any of the classic mics, and that’s Neumann. The real one.

The Gefell mics just started coming in after the wall fell, and they were not that great but shops could sell them for high prices because of the remote association with Neumann...even though they hadn’t ever produced a single one of the major classic Neumann mics out of there.

I think it is really sad the way that gear pimps like yourself have tried so hard to manipulate public perception about the reality of the situation, in order to sell lesser quality mics for a cost that they never commanded. I say this as the former owner of a couple UM70s, who at one point was misguided into the fanciful BS. And I have used just about every damn Gefell model several times over the years as well. Though that is beside the point.
The trouble is that you are denying the truth.

I'm not "pimping gear", just trying to set the record straight.

Neumann started his original company in 1928 - and it's that company that is now Microtech Gefell.

Neumann's second, 1948, company is the one now owned by Sennheiser.

Yes, I have never denied that the classic mics are mostly Neumann Berlin - though, the CMV 563 / M7 was made in Gefell and, I think, Berlin as well.

You are trying to deny Gefell it's heritage, all I am doing is to make the heritage clear.

Anyway, Neumann Berlin and Gefell mics don't really compete with each other - they compliment each other. There is no exact equivalent in either range.

If you want to ignore what I say - THIS is the WIkipedia entry for Gefell
Old 4 weeks ago
  #43
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John, you are just choosing to read that in a selective way (and also not read the Wikipedia entry for Neumann). But even in that entry you link, 1948 isn’t the creation of a “second company”.

Neumann was getting fire bombed. They opened up a second location - Gefell. When the strife in Berlin was dying down, the reopened in a new building.

The the Gefell location got gobbled up by the state. At that point, they were their own thing, and went down a really different path. I think it’s arguable it’s was a much lower quality path, and I think it’s arguable that’s a widely held opinion.

The irony of all of this, is the Gefell was it’s own state owned company well before any of the Neumann classics that made them truly legendary.

No point in continuing the back and forth really.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #44
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This is a nice piece about the history of Neumann in english:
http://www.sound-link.co.uk/pdf/A%20...h%20Gefell.pdf

A lot of what is written in postings here is only halfway accurate.

The most obscure part for me - but I don't find an english text describing the history - is how when China and the Soviet Union was still one block the Neumann/Gefell capsules made in the socialist part of Germany came to China and other socialist "brothercountries" and were combined with other high quality tech from Germany, but both didn't match. The story of the budget chinese condensers that are overly bright and sharp...

On edit: I've found an english text:
https://soundbetter.com/kb/why-many-...t-and-sibilant

There were some shortcomings in the Gefell mics during the communist period (lack of quality materials etc.) They had to improvise a lot. On the other hand, after the fall of the Berlin wall the chief of Neumann (West) said that they were surprised to find that in some aspects Gefell East had developped "superior" technics than Neumann West. Quote:
"Much to their surprise, they apparently found microphone technology more advanced than some of that available in the West."
Old 4 weeks ago
  #45
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Hey the best car mechanics in the world are in cuba!.......
Old 4 weeks ago
  #46
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toledo3's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkP View Post
This is a nice piece about the history of Neumann in english:
http://www.sound-link.co.uk/pdf/A%20...h%20Gefell.pdf

A lot of what is written in postings here is only halfway accurate.

The most obscure part for me - but I don't find an english text describing the history - is how when China and the Soviet Union was still one block the Neumann/Gefell capsules made in the socialist part of Germany came to China and other socialist "brothercountries" and were combined with other high quality tech from Germany, but both didn't match. The story of the budget chinese condensers that are overly bright and sharp...

On edit: I've found an english text:
https://soundbetter.com/kb/why-many-...t-and-sibilant

There were some shortcomings in the Gefell mics during the communist period (lack of quality materials etc.) They had to improvise a lot. On the other hand, after the fall of the Berlin wall the chief of Neumann (West) said that they were surprised to find that in some aspects Gefell East had developped "superior" technics than Neumann West. Quote:
"Much to their surprise, they apparently found microphone technology more advanced than some of that available in the West."
Yeah, you used to see a lot more of the mics that had mixes of various communist bloc parts, that were done in various batches...some with Gefell parts, etc. Kind of the budget mics before the wave of Chinese import mics hit.

They had to make due with what they had, and it is what it is. I actually have a lot of respect for those engineers.

All of those initial better Gefell offerings after the wall came down still have a lot more to do with the communist bloc mics than they do a U47, 87, etc. RF problems, transformers that get overloaded easily (which can be cool for some things), sometimes weird circuits that require tubes that have really bad pass/fail rates (like the UM900). They really did up the craftwork on the bodies over time, and I don’t even think that things like their Mylar M7 are a bad idea, since none of their M7s are the authentically the same as the original anyway given the change in PVC formulation. Those anniversary UM75 mics are really nice, and I would personally snatch one if I saw one in good shape for a reasonable price. But none of that makes them some kind of “real Neumann”. Why not acknowledge the nuance?

There is a value to some of the widely recognized, classic Neumann model mics, in that they put a stamp on the sound that is just familiar.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo3 View Post
Yeah, you used to see a lot more of the mics that had mixes of various communist bloc parts, that were done in various batches...some with Gefell parts, etc. Kind of the budget mics before the wave of Chinese import mics hit.

They had to make due with what they had, and it is what it is. I actually have a lot of respect for those engineers.

All of those initial better Gefell offerings after the wall came down still have a lot more to do with the communist bloc mics than they do a U47, 87, etc. RF problems, transformers that get overloaded easily (which can be cool for some things), sometimes weird circuits that require tubes that have really bad pass/fail rates (like the UM900). They really did up the craftwork on the bodies over time, and I don’t even think that things like their Mylar M7 are a bad idea, since none of their M7s are the authentically the same as the original anyway given the change in PVC formulation. Those anniversary UM75 mics are really nice, and I would personally snatch one if I saw one in good shape for a reasonable price. But none of that makes them some kind of “real Neumann”. Why not acknowledge the nuance?

There is a value to some of the widely recognized, classic Neumann model mics, in that they put a stamp on the sound that is just familiar.
Thank you for your reply. I don't want to hijack this thread any further, but this is an interesting detailed story about Gefells out of the GDR:

http://www.tab-funkenwerk.com/id72.html
Old 4 weeks ago
  #48
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Interesting that Oliver refers to the one period as RFT Gefell too. That’s what I was referring to earlier, when I was mentioning all of the RFT labeled mics. I wonder why Gefell now chooses not to mention any of that in their bio? They *sort of* refer to it obliquely. Oh well.

Back to the regularly scheduled program.

In a very general sense, the OP might find it worthwhile to look into Bock and Mojave within the mentioned price bracket. Both reputable companies who do solid work and stand by their products. NOT the same as classic Neumann model by any stretch, but sounds like some of their least expensive models would fit the general criteria. The Neumann TLM102 may be a solid choice as well for the stated purpose...kinda under rated IMO.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkP View Post
Thank you for your reply. I don't want to hijack this thread any further, but this is an interesting detailed story about Gefells out of the GDR:

http://www.tab-funkenwerk.com/id72.html


These are some RFT pages from older sites about vintage mics. They show the most common models from the era after the Gefell factory stopped using the “Neumann” on the mics, but before the rebrand effort that happened after the wall fell. Thought you might find interesting from a historical perspective.

http://oldmics.cz/?v=10&j=en&od=1

http://oldmics.pl/index.php?id=464

Last edited by toledo3; 3 weeks ago at 04:01 AM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #50
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If John W. and Toledo will forgive me , I'll mention my favorite cheapie dynamic microphone, the AKG D790. Which in excellent condition used, ought to set the OP back, no more than $60 or so. So cheap and so nice sounding, that it can come in handy as a good handheld rap mic (that you won't have a heart attack if-or is that when-it's dropped!).

Below is a short acapella clip, of me singing part of Donovan's Classic "Hurdy Gurdy Man". 1st clip heavily processed/psychedelic style. 2nd clip vocal + reverb.
Chris
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