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Advice on triggering my software drums.
Old 24th March 2019
  #1
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Advice on triggering my software drums.

I've been "playing" my Superior Drums from my keyboard, and while I'm happy with the results, I'd like to go to the next level of realism, especially in regards to the hi hats.

Let me interject at this point that the first instrument I learned to play as an adolescent was drums, and I do have a real set of 1964 Ludwig BOP drums (purchased as a present to me from my parents in '64) that are an exact copy of Ringo's drumset, and they are stored in cases at my house where my home studio is located.

Moving forward, I'm thinking about buying some pads that I would like to play with sticks to trigger Superior Drums, but once I started researching pads, it opened a can of worms for someone who is admittedly obsessive.

Regardless, there are so many options like the Roland Octopdad, SPD-SX, the Alesis Sample Pad 4, the Strike, the Akai MDP's, the Yamaha DTX-MULTI 12, etc., and all of them allow one to add hi hat and kick drum triggers.

I also could go with some electronic drums kits by Yamaha, Alesis and Roland, and they all have mesh/rubber heads/cymbals, as well as pedals to trigger the hi hats and kick drum.

Now admittedly I would just use my Ludwig's to record my drums, but my Apollo Twin Duo only has two inputs, so my options are limited there, but I have thought about recording my Zildjian hi hats separately, and at least that would solve having realistic sounding hi hats.


So what are your thoughts/input/advice in achieving what I'm trying to accomplish?
Old 24th March 2019
  #2
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jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrydpi View Post
I've been "playing" my Superior Drums from my keyboard, and while I'm happy with the results, I'd like to go to the next level of realism, especially in regards to the hi hats.

Let me interject at this point that the first instrument I learned to play as an adolescent was drums, and I do have a real set of 1964 Ludwig BOP drums (purchased as a present to me from my parents in '64) that are an exact copy of Ringo's drumset, and they are stored in cases at my house where my home studio is located.

Moving forward, I'm thinking about buying some pads that I would like to play with sticks to trigger Superior Drums, but once I started researching pads, it opened a can of worms for someone who is admittedly obsessive.

Regardless, there are so many options like the Roland Octopdad, SPD-SX, the Alesis Sample Pad 4, the Strike, the Akai MDP's, the Yamaha DTX-MULTI 12, etc., and all of them allow one to add hi hat and kick drum triggers.

I also could go with some electronic drums kits by Yamaha, Alesis and Roland, and they all have mesh/rubber heads/cymbals, as well as pedals to trigger the hi hats and kick drum.

Now admittedly I would just use my Ludwig's to record my drums, but my Apollo Twin Duo only has two inputs, so my options are limited there, but I have thought about recording my Zildjian hi hats separately, and at least that would solve having realistic sounding hi hats.


So what are your thoughts/input/advice in achieving what I'm trying to accomplish?
Hi Jerry, if you can do the real hats thing !! it really helps .. the Mesh Type Kits, they are quite nice when you need to slap down some ideas ..

a friend used to use an Octopad type with Kick and Hat Pedals .. and that again was fast for getting ideas down .. you have to play "The Pads" yes, so in that sense, the Mesh Kit type Hats are nicer ..

imho, it is bice to have Kick, Snare, Hats to play at the same time ... is much as you can play the Real Hats by themselves to a programmed kick and snare fro example .. the intereaction will never be the sameor as natural .. maybe a simple Mesh Kit !!

thx for starting this thread, as i would like to come up with an extremely portable version of a K/S/Hat Kit that you can play and not bother people .. backpack type size ..

if i find something interesting i will post back !!

just my thoughts on a sunday .. and FYI: i just sold off all my acoustic drums - to slim down my life - but miss hitting something !

cheers john
Old 24th March 2019
  #3
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Hi John!!!


While waiting for replies, I called Sweetwater, and I was surprised that even they don't have what I consider a "simple" solution to address what I want to do

Most of what they had to offer had built in drum sounds, and I don't want/need built in drum sounds, and every hi hat rubber pad I've ever used, be it Roland, Yamaha or Alesis, none of them were as realistic/articulate as a real pair of hi hats (as how could they be?).



So based upon what you said, it "opened" my mind as to what I specifically want, and that is:

X device/devices that will allow me to play/trigger/record a kick (with a pedal), snare, 2 toms and a floor (all played with drumsticks) using Superior Drummer (or Addictive Drums), while at the same recording a real hi hat (I can do that now with what I currently have).

Once my drum tracks are recorded, it will be easy to then add either real or software cymbals.


Thanks for the input!!!

Last edited by jerrydpi; 24th March 2019 at 09:51 PM.. Reason: Spelling errors.
Old 24th March 2019
  #4
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Either you go all in or keep it simple.

The best traditional Trigger to midi brain is the roland TMC6.
Only 6 input, no sounds, but its simple and fast. Trigger settings are the same in all Roland units.

Hats are a core problem. Either you go roland brain and hats, Magadrum & Roland, Or all Yamaha, Or go the DIY/Hart method.

New drum tech is: In-head/Onhead or the link below

Access to this page has been denied.

Kat makes a good old school brain
Pearl make a good new school brain with a softsynth included
Roland sets the standard. They pulled a dick move on the last update of flagship. They went digital on the ride and snare

Kick drum. Only the KD140 is good for depth, cheaper to put sensor on real kick.
Snare: Company in germany sells god 14", Old hart stuff is 13"


You have to decide exactly what all your goals are. I wanted quite, and fast, and full size. I'm $10K in. Then went MADI AD DA for fast sound.
Old 24th March 2019
  #5
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ProgFree's Avatar
 

I have the Alesis Sample Pad 4, use it with a lot of stuff, from acoustic drum sample libraries to electronic samples plugins and it works always very nice. But. if you want realistic hi-hats the best is to record real hi-hats. Very easy and kind of unbeatable.
Old 24th March 2019
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elegentdrum View Post

You have to decide exactly what all your goals are. I wanted quite, and fast, and full size. I'm $10K in. Then went MADI AD DA for fast sound.

Hi elegantdrum!

Didn't I state exactly what my goal is?

Jerry
Old 24th March 2019
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProgFree View Post
I have the Alesis Sample Pad 4, use it with a lot of stuff, from acoustic drum sample libraries to electronic samples plugins and it works always very nice. But. if you want realistic hi-hats the best is to record real hi-hats. Very easy and kind of unbeatable.
Hi ProgFree

Will the Alesis Sample Pad 4 accomplish my goal?

What do you trigger your kick with?
Old 24th March 2019
  #8
Gear Guru
 
jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrydpi View Post
Hi John!!!


While waiting for replies, I called Sweetwater, and I was surprised that even they don't have what I consider a "simple" solution to address what I want to do

Most of what that had to offer had built in drum sounds, and I don't want/need built in drum sounds, and every hi hat rubber pad I've ever used, be it Roland, Yamaha or Alesis, none of them were as realistic/articulate as a real pair of hi hats (as how could they be?).



So based upon what you said, it "opened" my mind as to what I specifically want, and that is:

X device/devices that will allow me to play/trigger/record a kick (with a pedal), snare, 2 toms and a floor (all played with drumsticks) using Superior Drummer (or Addictive Drums), while at the same recording a real hi hat (I can do that now with what I currently have).

Once my drum tracks are recorded, it will be easy to then add either real or software cymbals.


Thanks for the input!!!
not saying buy these .. just making a few observations .. and seeing what is out there for making a PAD based setup .. and not saying this is what you would do ..

this just amazes me at this price .. 349.00 .. you could just not put up the Hats or Cymbals Triggers .. OR .. play them and replace them later !!

Access to this page has been denied.

PAD SOLUTIONS:

wow ..

Ordering from outside the US - Google Express Help

this is outside the box - haha .. put acoustic triggers on these ..

DJ Controllers & Interfaces | Musician's Friend

NORD .. hmm .. this has a Kick input (kick pedal, snare & toms on the pads) .. with real hats and then cymbal overdubs as you mentioned .. that might actually feel alright ..

Access to this page has been denied.

and this drum trigger input box .. is very cool .. pick and choose .. and this quote Pic is from the Review at the bottom of the page .. Mentions Superior Drums !!

Access to this page has been denied.

Yamaha .. has no sampling input ..

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...xoCkFIQAvD_BwE

sorry for posting all this .. as most of this is probably not going to be part of your setup .. but maybe mine !!! oops Hijack !!

you have given me a lot of ideas ..

cheers john
Attached Thumbnails
Advice on triggering my software drums.-screen-shot-2019-03-24-2.03.31-pm.jpg  
Old 24th March 2019
  #9
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If you had to choose just one, which would you go with?
Old 24th March 2019
  #10
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jwh1192's Avatar
i am starting to lean towards the Alesis Sample Pad Pro ... with Kick and Hat Pedals .. very portable ..

now back to You !!!
Old 24th March 2019
  #11
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jwh1192's Avatar
and this is why .. not really but damn funny .. the guitar player kills me.. and then scroll far enough in to hear the drummer Speak .. not trying to laugh at a language but this just made me laugh today .. !!!

YouTube
Old 24th March 2019
  #12
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But by the time you purchased the Pad, the pedals and stand, wouldn't that cost more than the Nitro Mesh which already comes with the pedals?
Old 24th March 2019
  #13
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jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrydpi View Post
But by the time you purchased the Pad, the pedals and stand, wouldn't that cost more than the Nitro Mesh which already comes with the pedals?
yes, but for me, i can make this setup smaller .. more portable and very fast to setup / teardown .. and if i do not want to use the pedals i can not pull them out of the bag .. thats just me of course .. !!
Old 25th March 2019
  #14
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I realize that I neglected to state that I'm not going to be gigging or carrying around whatever I purchase.

It will ONLY be for triggering, in my home studio, either Superior Drummer or Addictive Drums.

Does that make any difference to any previous replies?
Old 25th March 2019
  #15
Gear Guru
 
jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrydpi View Post
I realize that I neglected to state that I'm not going to be gigging or carrying around whatever I purchase.

It will ONLY be for triggering, in my home studio, either Superior Drummer or Addictive Drums.

Does that make any difference to any previous replies?
no, i am the one looking for a Portable Setup ..

you are a better candidate for a small Mesh Setup !!!

do you have a Budget for this ??
Old 25th March 2019
  #16
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Around $400.00 to $500.00.

Also, do you think the Sample Pad Pro, with pedals, would work?

I think what sells me on them is the way the guy talked

Last edited by jerrydpi; 25th March 2019 at 04:13 AM..
Old 25th March 2019
  #17
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ProgFree's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrydpi View Post
Hi ProgFree

Will the Alesis Sample Pad 4 accomplish my goal?

What do you trigger your kick with?
It works for me. Maybe you can try it somewhere. I am using a Yamaha ku 100.
Old 25th March 2019
  #18
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Thanks ProgFree!

Have you or anyone else checked out the Roland TD-1K?


Watch this cool YouTube video called "Johnny Rabb demos Roland TD-1K":

YouTube
Old 25th March 2019
  #19
Gear Guru
 
jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrydpi View Post
Thanks ProgFree!

Have you or anyone else checked out the Roland TD-1K?


Watch this cool YouTube video called "Johnny Rabb demos Roland TD-1K":

YouTube
thx for posting this Video ... very cool ...

i see them used for 349.00 reverb and GC ..

looks like you can add a Mesh Snare or a better kick drum system ..

very cool
Old 25th March 2019
  #20
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As a long time V-Drum user, also triggering SD2, I have to say, get the best Roland gear you can afford.

If you start with a brain, snare, kick and hi hat pads, you'll be set. Most of their systems allow you to expand, adding more pads in the future.

I'd keep an eye out for a used Roland kit for sure.
Old 25th March 2019
  #21
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Hi to the other Jerry!

Here's my take on Roland V-Drums, or ANY Electronic Drums for that matter.

IMHO, if one starts from a common agreement that no Electronic Drums feel like an acoustic set with real cymbals, then we can move forward

So if we agree, then several factors enter into the discussion, factors such are the Electronic Drums for live playing, are they for studio use, does one already have an acoustic set, is there a footprint size one needs, does one like the onboard sounds, does one want to simply use the pads to trigger software drums, is this ones first drum set, what style music will you be playing, and so on and so on.


I also contend that ones age has a lot to do with it well.


I have seen videos of young musicians that are playing from their iPads, and the music they produce is pretty impressive.


What I'm getting at is if one starts playing drums at, say six years old, and only has a Alesis Sample Pad Pro, maybe with pedals, maybe not, then that is what he/she grows accustomed to, it's their baseline standard if you will, and they might never look back, and they think that striking drumsticks against rubber pads is how one plays drums.


If you think about it, that mindset is really no different than what a lot of drummers who grew up on acoustic sets have to say about Electronic Drums, wouldn't you agree?
Old 25th March 2019
  #22
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Well....yes!

I can only speak for myself here but I'll try to sum up my experience.

I learned on acoustic drums. When I got my E-kit, I just started using it without thinking much about it. To me, it's like an acoustic guitar player picking up an electric bass. Same basic rules, slightly different application. You have to practice on 'that' particular version to get the most out of it.

Yes, playing real vs E-kits are different experiences, different feel, different response, different ways of making adjustments to the kit so it fits better with your style of playing. I got mine when the first V-Drums were released. Mesh heads were a big improvement at the time for sure.

As for the application, in my home studio, I love them. I only ever trigger SD2 and I get what I need from this setup. I have had other drummers play them and had to coach them a little bit or demo the behavior to give an example of what to expect but most players tend to get along with them fine.

I think the sense of 'these are pretty fun to play' has come across as 'these are really close to feeling like acoustic drums' to some people in the past, which is not accurate obviously.

I bought the smallest frame they had at the time, 8" pads all around, to save space. Pad size makes a big difference and, to be honest, the best mesh pads I've played were 14" DIY pads a guy I met had made. They felt way more 'natural' than the Roland ones. Just an old tom, cut in half, sensor and mesh head installed. There's lots of info on DIY pads out there.
Also, I have toured with them, 2 flight cases with wheels in the airport is not fun! Setup isn't any quicker either.

But to me, where they really shine is as a writing tool. To be able to use all 4 of my limbs to compose drum parts for my songs has been indispensable through the years. After seeing different E-percussion setups in different studios, I have to say, get the best Roland setup that you can afford.
Old 25th March 2019
  #23
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As I'm a guy who is more impressed by someone who can get great results with less expensive gear (which nowadays is pretty darn impressive), I just purchased the Roland TD-1K's, and I could have spent thousands if I felt I had to


If the TD-1K's sound ANYTHING like they sound on countless YouTube video's (triggering Superior Drummer 3, which I have), I will be VERY happy, as at a certain point, IMHO, it boils down to playing skills/mixing skills/etc., not the gear.




So that being said....................................................................................



How can I tell anyone else that how they feel/think is wrong, and I am right?



Regardless, I am using the TD-1K's as a writing tool as well, and I know they will improve my songs drum tracks by allowing me to use all four limbs instead of my fingers on my keyboard (as I said earlier, I started out as a drummer, and I do have an acoustic set that I would use if I had the space and inputs on my Interface).
Old 25th March 2019
  #24
Gear Guru
 
jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrydpi View Post
As I'm a guy who is more impressed by someone who can get great results with less expensive gear (which nowadays is pretty darn impressive), I just purchased the Roland TD-1K's, and I could have spent thousands if I felt I had to


If the TD-1K's sound ANYTHING like they sound on countless YouTube video's (triggering Superior Drummer 3, which I have), I will be VERY happy, as at a certain point, IMHO, it boils down to playing skills/mixing skills/etc., not the gear.




So that being said....................................................................................



How can I tell anyone else that how they feel/think is wrong, and I am right?



Regardless, I am using the TD-1K's as a writing tool as well, and I know they will improve my songs drum tracks by allowing me to use all four limbs instead of my fingers on my keyboard (as I said earlier, I started out as a drummer, and I do have an acoustic set that I would use if I had the space and inputs on my Interface).
oh cool ... will be waiting for your reviews !!!
Old 25th March 2019
  #25
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Nice score! I'm sure you'll get along very well with them.
As you were originally asking about hi hat performance, I'm sure you'll find that the appropriate technique will come as you settle in. Different stroke and rebound but, as with anything, it's all in the touch and you can feel it out. I find it takes me a few minutes to get used to a real kit after playing pads so often and vice versa after playing a live kit.

Also, I'm not sure how deep the TD-1K settings go but applying the right sensitivity and other options in the Roland module should help you get a more 'natural' response out of the kit. I've found that different drum plugins react differently to the velocity my pads output so take a look through the module options to get the most out of your SD performance.
Old 25th March 2019
  #26
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In advance of receiving them, I downloaded the Owner's Manual, and it appears to allow a fairly wide range of sensitivity per pad, as well as allowing one to choose the type of Roland Pad you have if you use a separately purchased kick trigger or mesh pad.

As far as the hi hat's, I'll experiment with miking my 50's Zildjian A Hi Hats as well to see if I can integrate them into my setup if I'm not happy with the way the Roland Hi Hat Pad interacts with Superior Drummer 3.
Old 25th March 2019
  #27
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Using the live hi-hat might have to be an overdub.

The 'thwack' from the pads will definitely need to be addressed with a live mic in the room. I've had the same issue even when a vocalist is across the room from my kit.

Definitely let us know of any success you have doing that. As mentioned before, hats and cymbals can be tricky when you get into E-drum land.

Even if you play a full performance with the kit and then decide to use the live hats instead, you can just delete the hi-hat MIDI from your recording and overdub the real thing.
Old 25th March 2019
  #28
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In my experience, when an entire acoustic kit is miked, you still have bleed from the other drums/cymbals picked up by the hi hat mic/mics, but you're 110% right in that if the pad's thwacks are too objectionable, I can easily record a separate new audio hi hat track.

As an aside, did you know that Stevie Wonder, Leon Russell (to name a few) played and recorded each drum/cymbal one at a time, all on separate tracks?
Old 25th March 2019
  #29
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Cool! I’ve done drum/cymbal overdubs in the past.

Works pretty well, even with real kits!
I recorded a metal band years ago and our OH setup wasn’t the best for the job. Setup 2 crashes and just recorded them alone over the full kit mix. Really saved the session.
Old 11th July 2019
  #30
Deleted ee61a28
Guest
2 cents ...

If you have the real thing (drums) and can play them without pissing off the neighbors.
but your limitation is only having two inputs and you're looking at spending $2500 or less on a setup ...
1. use the money to buy more high quality in's
2. use the money to buy good microphones

if you are set on not changing up the interface or adding more mic pres then record the drums with two overheads using good mics.
then play those drums as a scratch track overdubbing your kick, snare, hats, etc ... again, using good mics and you can build your kit
this way playing to yourself so there's a feel and reference point.

IMO - nothing will compare to real drums played by a real drummer.
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