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SDC's without the high freq bump
Old 21st February 2019
  #1
SDC's without the high freq bump

Can anyone recommend an SDC
(NOT A KM84)
that does not have a lift in the higher frequencies?
As i look at each mic i also lookup their frequency response.
I know i can not rely on that alone, but its a start.
Old 21st February 2019
  #2
Some of the Schoeps cmc 6 with interchangeable capsules would be a good place to start. Mk4, mk41, mk 22, mk 21 etc. Some might have a slight rise but overall these are going to sound natural and not hyped.
Old 21st February 2019
  #3
Is this for acoustic guitar? Yes, agree with Nathan: CMC5 or 6 with MK4, 41, etc... the capsules without any HF lift.
Old 21st February 2019
  #4
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Earcatcher's Avatar
The Sonodore RCM-402 has a "high lift" of no more than half a dB above 5K. It sounds very linear, very precise, still musical. Sonodore Microphones
Old 21st February 2019
  #5
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avare's Avatar
 

BSWA SM4201, SM4216, SM4218
Gefell M221
Line Audio CM3, OM1

Andre
Old 21st February 2019
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aural Endeavors View Post
Is this for acoustic guitar? Yes, agree with Nathan: CMC5 or 6 with MK4, 41, etc... the capsules without any HF lift.
drum overheads
Old 21st February 2019
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
BSWA SM4201, SM4216, SM4218
Gefell M221
Line Audio CM3, OM1

Andre
I wanted a cardioid pattered, and i see they have one.
So far this is the flattest freq response I've seen, thank you very much
Old 21st February 2019
  #8
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andersmv's Avatar
 

The Vanguard V1 I demoed was quite dark with the cardioid small cap and not hyped at all. You can see the demo in the video below starting at 2:17, I've got it back to back with an OktavaMod (Michael Joly) MK-012, so basically a KM-84 clone. Quite different!

Old 21st February 2019
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by andersmv View Post
The Vanguard V1 I demoed was quite dark with the cardioid small cap and not hyped at all. You can see the demo in the video below starting at 2:17, I've got it back to back with an OktavaMod (Michael Joly) MK-012, so basically a KM-84 clone. Quite different!

Great video, great sound and performance.
I hate to sound this way, but i have searched for a frequency plot to their sdc's, to no avail,
little things like that bother me about a company.
I shouldn't have to look that hard, and then not find anything.
Old 21st February 2019
  #10
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andersmv's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreckdirect View Post
Great video, great sound and performance.
I hate to sound this way, but i have searched for a frequency plot to their sdc's, to no avail,
little things like that bother me about a company.
I shouldn't have to look that hard, and then not find anything.
My advice, do yourself a favor and stop looking at those worthless plots. A lot of companies have stopped posting them, especially companies like Vanguard that are trying to make new/original sounding mic's as opposed to clones. I doubt they want people comparing it to a C12 or U47 graph to figure out what it sounds the closest to. This isn't the 1960's, we have youtube and forums like this where you can hear them for yourself.

What exactly are you looking for that a frequency response graph is going to tell you over hearing it?
Old 21st February 2019
  #11
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
BSWA SM4201, SM4216, SM4218
Gefell M221
Line Audio CM3, OM1

Andre
+1 for Line Audio CM3. Can't believe how cheap they are and ruler flat.
Old 21st February 2019
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by andersmv View Post
My advice, do yourself a favor and stop looking at those worthless plots. A lot of companies have stopped posting them, especially companies like Vanguard that are trying to make new/original sounding mic's as opposed to clones. I doubt they want people comparing it to a C12 or U47 graph to figure out what it sounds the closest to. This isn't the 1960's, we have youtube and forums like this where you can hear them for yourself.

What exactly are you looking for that a frequency response graph is going to tell you over hearing it?
Thats an interesting response,
i like to be able to view a freq resp, period.
it tells me the basic characteristics of a mic, i don't go buying microphones based solely on freq resps.
i am not looking for a clone at all,
and youtube is worthless in my book also, forums are a better way to speak to people that have used them.
and yeah, its 2019 lol
Old 21st February 2019
  #13
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andersmv's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreckdirect View Post
Thats an interesting response,
i like to be able to view a freq resp, period.
it tells me the basic characteristics of a mic, i don't go buying microphones based solely on freq resps.
i am not looking for a clone at all,
and youtube is worthless in my book also, forums are a better way to speak to people that have used them.
and yeah, its 2019 lol
I should have thought that out a bit more before typing it out... In the grand scheme of things, I don't understand why a lot of people seem to be so wrapped up in frequency response graphs these days when there's usually a dozen videos and clips posted of a microphone out there. That's why I was suggesting that you not worry about the fact Vanguard isn't posting frequency response graphs.

Why would you think youtube is worthless? At the very least, I hope this quick clip of the acoustic guitar from my video was enough to show you that the V1 is a mic that sounds nothing like a KM84 and without a lift in the higher frequencies.

I just don't trust advertised frequency response things for mic's anymore, most of them look more of less the same and some are strait up confusing after looking at them and using the mic for the first time. Especially with ribbon mic's, it's just a crap shoot!
Old 21st February 2019
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by andersmv View Post
I should have thought that out a bit more before typing it out... In the grand scheme of things, I don't understand why a lot of people seem to be so wrapped up in frequency response graphs these days when there's usually a dozen videos and clips posted of a microphone out there. That's why I was suggesting that you not worry about the fact Vanguard isn't posting frequency response graphs.

Why would you think youtube is worthless? At the very least, I hope this quick clip of the acoustic guitar from my video was enough to show you that the V1 is a mic that sounds nothing like a KM84 and without a lift in the higher frequencies.

I just don't trust advertised frequency response things for mic's anymore, most of them look more of less the same and some are strait up confusing after looking at them and using the mic for the first time. Especially with ribbon mic's, it's just a crap shoot!
no worries at all,
i don't like youtube for a few reasons, first you can hardly ever tell if a room is treated or not in most of these videos, which would have a huge effect on any recording,
also the quality of the audio in youtube isn't great, there's artifacts etc.
Your probably right when you say you don't trust the freq responses, I'm sure companies smooth them out a little more lol
Btw your set up looks great, i went to your website, pretty awesome.
I bet being situated in nature like you are is a blessing to record in ?
I appreciate your input brother ;-)
Old 21st February 2019
  #15
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreckdirect View Post
Can anyone recommend an SDC
(NOT A KM84)
that does not have a lift in the higher frequencies?
As i look at each mic i also lookup their frequency response.
I know i can not rely on that alone, but its a start.
KSM 137 is like a KM84 albeit a lesser quality. Better than KM184.
It has a bump in the 8 -10k area

Another is Beyer mc930 and akg c451
Old 21st February 2019
  #16
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john caldwell's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreckdirect View Post
Thats an interesting response,
i like to be able to view a freq resp, period.
I'm basically with andersmv.

A limitation in response graphs is that conditions of measurement are not standardized between manufacturers, or even for varying models within a given manufacturer. Add to this that measurements are often made with sine wave sweeps, or pink noise, while you are I are rarely recording steady state signals, but are capturing content with transient information. The same can be said of loudspeaker response and graphs of those responses.

So I'll not say that you're examining such response curves is of no value, but I believe you're not likely learning what you hope about the mic performance in your room, on your sound sources.

The most uncolored SDC I have are the Earthworks TC 40K. Since they are an omni pencil, they avoid most of the proximity LF boosts that can create real problems.

Your drum overhead application is likely to call for EQ, irrespective of OH mic choice and its flatness, so I'm guessing your quest for a flat response, as depicted on manufacturer's paper plat, isn't going to help you much.

John Caldwell
Old 21st February 2019
  #17
Gear Nut
I dont know what is the price range you have in mind. Shure SM81 and Oktava MK012 two mics of different flavour, none is overly bright and they are not too expensive.
Old 21st February 2019
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by john caldwell View Post
I'm basically with andersmv.

A limitation in response graphs is that conditions of measurement are not standardized between manufacturers, or even for varying models within a given manufacturer. Add to this that measurements are often made with sine wave sweeps, or pink noise, while you are I are rarely recording steady state signals, but are capturing content with transient information. The same can be said of loudspeaker response and graphs of those responses.

So I'll not say that you're examining such response curves is of no value, but I believe you're not likely learning what you hope about the mic performance in your room, on your sound sources.

The most uncolored SDC I have are the Earthworks TC 40K. Since they are an omni pencil, they avoid most of the proximity LF boosts that can create real problems.

Your drum overhead application is likely to call for EQ, irrespective of OH mic choice and its flatness, so I'm guessing your quest for a flat response, as depicted on manufacturer's paper plat, isn't going to help you much.

John Caldwell
I bought two u89's for drum oh's and loved them, but their freq respect was helpful, but i had to get them into my place to really know.Then i grabbed a pair of AKG 460B's with ck61 capsule and thought they were cool, but they have a bump in the higher register.
With a little eq, i took the bump down a bit and am happy with them.
So my u89's are now for vocals and acoustic guitar and i couldn't be happier with them there.
I asked about other flavors out there because i have a good friend who wants a pair of 460b's and i thought i would pass them on to him as a gift, and try something new :-)
So honestly, the frequency responses for both the neumann and the AKG's were very helpful.
Old 21st February 2019
  #19
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andersmv's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreckdirect View Post
I bought two u89's for drum oh's and loved them, but their freq respect was helpful, but i had to get them into my place to really know.Then i grabbed a pair of AKG 460B's with ck61 capsule and thought they were cool, but they have a bump in the higher register.
With a little eq, i took the bump down a bit and am happy with them.
So my u89's are now for vocals and acoustic guitar and i couldn't be happier with them there.
I asked about other flavors out there because i have a good friend who wants a pair of 460b's and i thought i would pass them on to him as a gift, and try something new :-)
So honestly, the frequency responses for both the neumann and the AKG's were very helpful.
Fair enough. I guess the only thing I would add is to not dismiss a company if they aren't posting frequency graphs. I know it might seem annoying that Vanguard does that, but on the other hand their website is FULL of clips that have been sent in by users like me. They also have a soundcloud account with a lot of clips. I personally would rather have that than a frequency graph.

I LOVE U89's. If you like them, check out the TLM-193. That K89 capsule is half way between a small cap and large cap, so it's a bit of the best of both worlds in some ways. The 193 is an almost darker mic (I would consider it "flat", but if you have a lot of C12 inspired mic's you're going to think it's dark), and a great choice for overheads and acoustic guitars (but horrible for the majority of vocals. I have a feeling a LOT of people don't do their homework and think they're scoring a cheap Neumann for vocals, then scratch their head when it doesn't sound right. It's all good, as long as they keep flipping them for cheap!). On the used market, you can grab 2 of them for the price of a used U89.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreckdirect View Post
Btw your set up looks great, i went to your website, pretty awesome. I bet being situated in nature like you are is a blessing to record in ? I appreciate your input brother ;-)
Thanks. I love it out here, it's been great for the clients too!
Old 21st February 2019
  #20
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Flat response cardioid - Sennheiser MKH 40

Old 21st February 2019
  #21
Gear Maniac
 
Joniverse's Avatar
Beyer MC930 is an option. Really nice sound and not hyped in the highs.
Old 21st February 2019
  #22
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joniverse View Post
Beyer MC930 is an option. Really nice sound and not hyped in the highs.
But it *does* have an HF boost of just over 2dB at around 13kHz.
Old 21st February 2019
  #23
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by andersmv View Post
My advice, do yourself a favor and stop looking at those worthless plots.
I wouldn't say they're worthless for stuff like off-axis response. But otherwise, you're not wrong.

On the other hand, I was on staff at this place and came in one day to discover that the Pultecs in "my" room had been replaced with Orban parametrics. When I screamed bloody murder the head tech staged a demo for the entire staff with an oscillator, a scope and a whiteboard "proving" that an Orban could do the exact same thing as a Pultec, and also that I was being an insubordinate dick. Which I was, but I wasn't wrong. You can prove anything with statistics.
Old 21st February 2019
  #24
Microphone frequency plots are "wishful thinking". None are truly flat, they all have "smoothing" processes attached to take the peaks down. If you saw them pre-smoothing they would scare you away.
Old 21st February 2019
  #25
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Brian M. Boykin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I wouldn't say they're worthless for stuff like off-axis response. But otherwise, you're not wrong.

On the other hand, I was on staff at this place and came in one day to discover that the Pultecs in "my" room had been replaced with Orban parametrics. When I screamed bloody murder the head tech staged a demo for the entire staff with an oscillator, a scope and a whiteboard "proving" that an Orban could do the exact same thing as a Pultec, and also that I was being an insubordinate dick. Which I was, but I wasn't wrong. You can prove anything with statistics.
Statistics are like a bikini, what they reveal are interesting, what the hide are vital.
Old 21st February 2019
  #26
Gear Maniac
 
Joniverse's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
But it *does* have an HF boost of just over 2dB at around 13kHz.
Ah, sorry, my bad. Its a very smooth and soft top end thoug, not harsh at all.
Old 21st February 2019
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian M. Boykin View Post
Statistics are like a bikini, what they reveal are interesting, what the hide are vital.
Sometimes what bikinis reveal is definitely not interesting Lol.
Old 21st February 2019
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface View Post
+1 for Line Audio CM3. Can't believe how cheap they are and ruler flat.
Compared to higher end mics known for their flat or "neutral" response like the CMC62, MK4, 41, and DPA 4006A with standard and trapezoid grills, the CM3 sounds tilted up to my ears, around 9K and above. Nice sound, though and a no-brainer purchase. The OM1, however sounds flatter than the CM3 to me. I own all of the above.
Old 21st February 2019
  #29
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aural Endeavors View Post
Sometimes what bikinis reveal is definitely not interesting Lol.
Almost always with Speedos.
Old 21st February 2019
  #30
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aural Endeavors View Post
Compared to higher end mics known for their flat or "neutral" response like the CMC62, MK4, 41, and DPA 4006A with standard and trapezoid grills, the CM3 sounds tilted up to my ears, around 9K and above. Nice sound, though and a no-brainer purchase. The OM1, however sounds flatter than the CM3 to me. I own all of the above.
It could very well; it's the flattest mic I have, so hard to tell without A/Bing.

I do like them a lot for overheads (and tom mics. The bleed is really pleasant sounding), but I usually boost a bit at 10K anyways.
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