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Less is more...?
Old 22nd January 2019
  #1
Gear Head
 

Less is more...?

Hi guys,

I was wondering: what would you consider the 'best' way of getting a great drum sound considering a small drum kit (1 racktom, 1 floor, kick, snare, hats and some cymbals). I know a lot depends on the music style, room quality, etc. but I am just interested in some insights of experienced people like you guys.

The options I put together:

1 - more mics, less preamps: what I mean here is everything close miked plus two overheads and a room mic. Feeding the 8 mics into a regular mixing console with no hardware preamps used.

2 - less mics, more preamps: this would be two (or one?!) very nice overhead mic(s), plus separate mics for kick, snare and hats (being able to blend hats in the mix separately is important to me). Feeding the 4 or 5 mics into API or NEVE preamps and then into the same regular mixing console. I should note that I also own a Yamaha subkick and that I might add a 57 underneath the snare but that would really be about it.

What would be your choise and why?

The background of my question is that I am finding a route to upgrade my studio. The question to me is: should I get more mics first or should I get some great mics and nice preamps.
Old 22nd January 2019
  #2
Quote:
Originally Posted by JanHaakma View Post
... The question to me is: should I get more mics first or should I get some great mics and nice preamps.
This is GS go w/more mics AND more preamps!

Seriously, you can get a nice drum sound with 2-3 mics. Search for Glyn Johns/Recorderman micing techniques and add a kick mic. From there you can add a snare mic, room mic(s), start spot micing toms, add character mics, etc.

Preamps make a big difference on dynamic mics. A 57 will change w/a nice pre.

I'd start with a couple nice OHs and kick mic. You could go MONO OH and a snare mic too. Don't skimp on press, then build from there.
Old 22nd January 2019
  #3
Lives for gear
 

#1 . Make sure the drums have good heads and are properly tuned.

#2 . Mic placement has to be correct so they have minimum phase cancellation. even being off a few inches can have dire consequences.

Whenever you use more then one mic on a sound source you have drum bleed and reflections which are out of phase and will cause frequency cancellation making the drums sound much thinner then they should be. The best way to tweak the mics to avoid phase cancellation is to have all your mics feed through headphones in mono then tweak the mics to positions that are warmest sounding. Phase cancellation affects the mics bass response the greatest. When they are out of phase you get a thin hollow sound, much like a stationary phase shifter/Flanger on a guitar produces. As you move the mic around you'll find a point where the bass is maximized and the thinness is minimized.

#3 . Before you use any plugins mixing check your mic phasing. Mics out of phase will sound like you need to EQ the tracks. If you don't fix the phase first you'll be chasing the white rabbit trying to make the drum mics sound good because you'll only make the phase problem move from one track to the next and never actually get rid of it.

The method you need to use is to view the drum tracks in wave view, then magnify the amplitude and the width so you can clearly see a single sine wave of a drum hit as it goes positive and negative. I typically focus on the kick and snare because they are the loudest, and most important drums. I'll first compare the kick mic to the overheads and use my mouse cursor to see if the kick drum peaks align. If they don't I'll nudge the kick track so its aligned with the kick in the overheads.

I'll do the same thing with matching the snare to the overheads. The rest of the mics I'll typically leave alone unless they are off a whole lot and then I'll play it by ear. If the kick and snare are good the amount of bass the drum mics produce should be good. Cymbals and high hat will typically be too high in frequency to be a huge issue. The rest of the drums are usually only used on fills and when you view the entire song, those breaks aren't nearly as often as you think they are.

Lastly. If you have a drums that sounds bad its typically because the set sounds bad live. You can treat the room with padded panels or blankets hung but those aren't going to fix crappy drums or possibly a bad player. You could try replacing the drum hits with samples. You need clearly defined peaks for them to be triggered so track cleanup editing is a big part of that game. Personally, I spent years tweaking my studio set to sound killer when tracking. Takes allot of analytics and trail and error to figure out just what works best so don't expect to even come close to having ideal tones fresh out of the box. If anything its more luck if you get something good right off so don't be discouraged if the drums sound demolish before you get them sounding good.
Old 22nd January 2019
  #4
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrgkmc View Post
#1 . Make sure the drums ...
Wow! Thank you so much for this!

Some of it I was already aware of but the wave view trick to align overheads and snare+kick.. just wow!

This does inspire me more to go the few mics/good preamps way. I think that way there is also less to go wrong haha...

Thank you so much!
Old 22nd January 2019
  #5
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
If the drums and the player are good it becomes a production esthetic thing. Personally I'd rather have mics on everything, all using the same preamp. Limited to 8 inputs and a 4 piece drums set, and the desire for a hat mic, I'd probably go mono OH, a mic on each drum, hat and stereo room mics.
Old 22nd January 2019
  #6
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
If the drums and the player are good it becomes a production esthetic thing. Personally I'd rather have mics on everything, all using the same preamp. Limited to 8 inputs and a 4 piece drums set, and the desire for a hat mic, I'd probably go mono OH, a mic on each drum, hat and stereo room mics.
Thank you.

The thing is, I'm also looking for a smart way to slowly scale up my studio. So I would rather buy just a few high quality mics and pre's now and acquire some more over time. I would like to prevent that I'm buying a lot of 'ok' components which I would have to sell (and lose money on it) when I want to upgrade something.

I do not speak English so I hope this makes sense...
Old 22nd January 2019
  #7
Gear Maniac
 
nuemes's Avatar
 

If on a tight budget I'd buy everything used.

- Four high quality preamps (four RND 511's and a lunchbox or a single API 3424)

- Four mics: SM57, D112 and a stereo ribbon.

You could probably pull all of that off for around $2500 used if you wait for good deals to pop.

Good converters and monitoring are important as well but that's another thread.
Old 23rd January 2019
  #8
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanHaakma View Post
1 - more mics, less preamps: what I mean here is everything close miked plus two overheads and a room mic. Feeding the 8 mics into a regular mixing console with no hardware preamps used.
Do you already own this mixer?

Quote:
2 - less mics, more preamps: this would be two (or one?!) very nice overhead mic(s), plus separate mics for kick, snare and hats
It depends on your drum tracking philosophy. If you feel the overheads are the "essence" of the drum sound, which is how I usually approach it, those two mics and preamps are critical. If you feel the overheads are mainly "cymbal mics" then getting cheaper mics may actually work out.

Quote:
(being able to blend hats in the mix separately is important to me).
Once you start recording, you may find that you will be just as often looking for an option to remove high-hats from the mix!

Quote:
Feeding the 4 or 5 mics into API or NEVE preamps and then into the same regular mixing console.
what purpose does sending these preamps into a "regular" mixing console serve? The mic has already been preamplified. Why wouldn't you plug the output of the preamps directly into your interface, and record each one on its own track? Skip the mixer. If anything, the 'regular' electronics will probably color the sound in an unfavorable way. It would be like paying extra for the 4k pay-per-view- and then watching it through a "regular" television.

Quote:
The background of my question is that I am finding a route to upgrade my studio. The question to me is: should I get more mics first or should I get some great mics and nice preamps
The following is a listing of my priorities. You can take them or leave them, just IMO.

• Although I love my preamps, and feel a great preamp is really important, mics come first.

• For results, a few high quality things beats a lot of cheap things most of the time.

• For fun, "a lot cheap things" can be more enjoyable to play with. So there's that.

• Top-notch overhead mics cost money. Top-notch kick drum mics can be found at a reasonable cost. Top-notch snare mics can be an incredible bargain. I would tilt my budget towards the overheads. In the preamps too.

The other plus of going for quality, is that over time, you will be able to add other things of quality; and one day you will look around and realize you have quite a bit of stuff - and none of it is crap!

IMO you can get a great drum sound with 3 or 4 mics. Especially if they are going into great preamps. However, it is only fair to say that this sound is a 'certain kind' of sound, and there are some musical styles in which a drum set recorded this way is not hip and you might want a close mic on everything.

Quote:
a regular mixing console
do you already have this console? Aside from having a bunch of preamps on board, why do you need it?
Old 23rd January 2019
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Jeff Hayat's Avatar
 

Less is more...?

No. Less is less. More is more.

More or less.

This is GS go w/more mics AND more preamps!



wrgkmc's post is spot on.

But please bear in mind.... the room rules all. Not more important than the player and the instrument, but once you get past that, the room - esp when you excite the room a lot (as with drums) - is the single most important thing. Others may disagree, but a pair of SM57s for OHs into a Mackie mixer at Ocean Way studios, is going to sound better than a pair of U67s into a pair of 1084s in somebody's crappy basement any day of the week.

My first job would be getting your room to sound as good as possible, and worry about the mics and pres later

Cheers.
Old 23rd January 2019
  #10
Gear Maniac
 

Good room or kill the room. Make sure the drums themselves sound good and the player is balanced and consistent. Then it doesn’t matter much what you do with the mics and placement. I like schoeps in XY for overhead and 47fet on bass drum and call it a day, 451 on snare if necessary.
Old 23rd January 2019
  #11
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JanHaakma View Post
Thank you.

The thing is, I'm also looking for a smart way to slowly scale up my studio. So I would rather buy just a few high quality mics and pre's now and acquire some more over time. I would like to prevent that I'm buying a lot of 'ok' components which I would have to sell (and lose money on it) when I want to upgrade something.

I do not speak English so I hope this makes sense...
This is the golden age of really good sounding affordable gear. It might not be gear that you can sell to retire from, but gear that you can make a living off of for a long time.

If you have a good sounding mixer with fast preamps with high headroom (you first post implies that you do) you can get some very affordable high quality sounding mics and GET TO WORK. The Audio Technica ATM230s, or used EV 408/460 can be great on toms. The sE V7 is quite affordable for snare (probably toms too). Octava MC012, sE8, KSM 137 are all good sounding overheads. Sennheiser e602, are really affordable and sound fantastic on BD. Spending for few more bucks gets you into Beyer M88s, the most wonderful mic made, great on toms, snare and BD.

Again, I'm emphasizing getting to work. Gear is cool, but EXPERIENCE is the key.
Old 23rd January 2019
  #12
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
Do you already have this console? Aside from having a bunch of preamps on board, why do you need it?
Thank you for your very clear and detailed post!

Yes I already have it. It is an Ipad controlled Allen & Heath qu-sb mixer.

I might use this as my interface the first period, so therefore the preamps I might buy will be connected to the Allen & Heath. But maybe, if I get a good deal, I buy an Antelope Orion or RME UFX+ (or UFX2) right away. Oh and by the way: the UFX2 only connects through USB 2 (so no thunderbolt or USB 3), is this a downside?

Concerning preamps: I plan on getting a Warm Audio WA-412 first, this gives me 4 API'ish pre's. The next buy would be one or two Warm Audio WA-273EQ for extra Neve style preamps. This way I can choose what preamp sound I like on what part of the kit.

My room is not bad but certainly no Abbey Road ofcourse...
Old 23rd January 2019
  #13
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuemes View Post
If on a tight budget I'd buy everything used.

- Four high quality preamps (four RND 511's and a lunchbox or a single API 3424)

- Four mics: SM57, D112 and a stereo ribbon.

You could probably pull all of that off for around $2500 used if you wait for good deals to pop.

Good converters and monitoring are important as well but that's another thread.
Concerning the ribbons: my ceiling is 2,40metres high (the beams are 20cm lower). Since this is not high I narrowed my ribbon overhead choise down to the M160, because this is one-directional.

What do you think of this? I am quite sure that I want to have ribbon overheads but is it indeed wise to go with one-directional ribbons only? Otherwise I could think of more OH options like for instance two SE VR's, the Rode NTR's or one (to start with) Coles 4038.

Thank you!
Old 23rd January 2019
  #14
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanHaakma View Post
Concerning the ribbons: my ceiling is 2,40metres high (the beams are 20cm lower).
Food for thought -- since your ceiling is so low (under 8 feet), you might try duct taping an omni or two to the ceiling. With a hard ceiling it should behave like a boundary mic, and in terms of reflections the ceiling will "disappear." This doesn't work the same in every room and with every omni mic, but when it does it can be pretty amazing.
Old 23rd January 2019
  #15
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanHaakma View Post
What would be your choise and why?
A lot of mics like 16 mics is somewhat a "standard" if you are a professional drummer that sells collaborations and recordings to external studios and producers (2 kicks drums both equipped with frontal and inner mic = 4, 2 rooms, 2 OH, snare 1 up and 1 bottom, 4 toms, 1 hat, 1 ride maybe you also have extra snare or gong drum placed on the left side)
You deliver the highest number of sources (even if redundant like micing the ride) then they mix them as they want.

If you are only working on your music you can do a good album (depending on your genre) also with only 1 mic, positioned in the Tchad Blake's sweet spot. Everything higher in quantity is also good.
Old 14th May 2019
  #16
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Food for thought -- since your ceiling is so low (under 8 feet), you might try duct taping an omni or two to the ceiling. With a hard ceiling it should behave like a boundary mic, and in terms of reflections the ceiling will "disappear." This doesn't work the same in every room and with every omni mic, but when it does it can be pretty amazing.
I think I saw you mention this in another thread too, and I forgot to ask - any mics you might recommend for this technique?
Old 14th May 2019
  #17
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirjuxtable View Post
I think I saw you mention this in another thread too, and I forgot to ask - any mics you might recommend for this technique?
Only omni I currently have is a 635a and it works with that.
Old 14th May 2019
  #18
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by JanHaakma View Post
Hi guys,

I was wondering: what would you consider the 'best' way of getting a great drum sound considering a small drum kit (1 racktom, 1 floor, kick, snare, hats and some cymbals). I know a lot depends on the music style, room quality, etc. but I am just interested in some insights of experienced people like you guys.

The options I put together:

1 - more mics, less preamps: what I mean here is everything close miked plus two overheads and a room mic. Feeding the 8 mics into a regular mixing console with no hardware preamps used.

2 - less mics, more preamps: this would be two (or one?!) very nice overhead mic(s), plus separate mics for kick, snare and hats (being able to blend hats in the mix separately is important to me). Feeding the 4 or 5 mics into API or NEVE preamps and then into the same regular mixing console. I should note that I also own a Yamaha subkick and that I might add a 57 underneath the snare but that would really be about it.

What would be your choise and why?

The background of my question is that I am finding a route to upgrade my studio. The question to me is: should I get more mics first or should I get some great mics and nice preamps.
If you want to put money into getting better drum tracks HIRE A PRO DRUMMER and use ANY of the methods you listed.

THE difference (The one you are looking for) in drum tracks is 90% player, 9% kit and proper tunning, 1% everything else.

I have heard drum tracks made with a digital handheld recorder that are better than full "bell and whistle" multi-tracks, because of the guy playing them.

The better the drummer the fewer the mics.
Old 14th May 2019
  #19
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Only omni I currently have is a 635a and it works with that.
Thanks, Brent. Hadn't heard of these before. Only omni I have is the behri measurement mic and the self noise is atrocious. Thought it would be useful as a room mic. Nope.

I agree with terrible.dee that a great drummer makes the biggest difference. But I usually take that as a given in these questions, since OP is asking about potential studio upgrade routes.
Old 15th May 2019
  #20
Here for the gear
 

Hi,

4 mics- D12,SM7, two M160,
Some Vintech or Api micpres, or the best you can afford.
Done!

Did you have a budget in mind?

Best/
Tom
Old 15th May 2019
  #21
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Brian M. Boykin's Avatar
Skipped down to post so sorry if I’m repeating, but I’m a less is more guy. I do recorderman with a top and bottom snare mic, one on kick, and one on each Tom. 7 mics total. Mic’s would increase as toms increase. Each go into a preamp and then to the converters. I skip the console all together. No EQ and no compression at tracking. Mic placement and selection is used to get the best possible recording. This is assuming drums are tuned properly and quality cymbals are used. If you don’t own a Tunbot get one. You can tune your drums to specific notes (frequencies). I don’t always end up using all the mics in the mix, but I have them if I need them. I use Jim Williams modded Symetrix SX202’s for preamps. The only preamps I use for everything I record except Bass, which is an Ashly SC40 I modded myself.

Brian
Old 16th May 2019
  #22
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by terrible.dee View Post
If you want to put money into getting better drum tracks HIRE A PRO DRUMMER and use ANY of the methods you listed.

THE difference (The one you are looking for) in drum tracks is 90% player, 9% kit and proper tunning, 1% everything else.

I have heard drum tracks made with a digital handheld recorder that are better than full "bell and whistle" multi-tracks, because of the guy playing them.

The better the drummer the fewer the mics.
This is funny :-). But thank you amyway.
Old 16th May 2019
  #23
Lives for gear
 

I really like a "less is more" approach. However, this will emphasize the sound of your room. You haven't mentioned your room treatment yet. How is your room treated? What is your budget? Any specific genre?

I think the previous suggestions are all great. The recorder man w/kick , or glyn johns method is the place to start. You could add a snare mic (top or bottom) if you'd like. Bottom snare mic might add something the mono OH isn't capturing. I think a dedicated hat mic is almost always superfluous. The only genre I think it is needed is reggae b/c the hi hat is such an intricate component of the drums and sounds really cool panned hard. That's ot though...

The only new suggestion I can offer is mono OH and kick to start. Find a great mic you would like to use as an OH. Get two if you can afford it. Perhaps get a kick mic that will capture the complete image of the kick as opposed to a sub kick. The avantone mondo is pretty great and cheap. An re20 is a lot more expensive than the mondo, but can be used on Vox and cabs if you need those bases covered as well.

Again, the less is more approach on drums emphasizes the sound of the room, but also allows the drummer to "play the room". If your room is treated at least a little, the drummer has the freedom to play the room. I mean if the drummer is familiar w/ your space or has the time to listen back a few times to what the drums sound like in your space, they can change their dynamics to fit the track and room. Then, the feel of the song is there w/ out trying to pull out the vibe while mixing.
I hope that makes sense.

If your room isn't treated, you and the drummer must find the best sounding spot and the drummer NEEDS to play the room. But if your room isn't treated, you should postpone upgrading mics/preamps and throw some $ at treating your room a bit.
Old 16th May 2019
  #24
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian M. Boykin View Post
Skipped down to post so sorry if I’m repeating, but I’m a less is more guy. I do recorderman with a top and bottom snare mic, one on kick, and one on each Tom. 7 mics total. Mic’s would increase as toms increase.
If I miked up a drum kit the way you described but with X-Y as the overheads, could I still call myself a "less is more guy"?

Considering that the discussion is about what is classically considered a "3-4 mic technique" (and that some people in the thread are questioning even the "adding" of a snare mic) I would not call your setup "less is more". It strikes me a 'normal' or 'standard' drum kit miking. I frequently mic up the drums quite similarly. I just don't call it 'minimalist'.

I don't know about everyone else, but I was always under the impression that the terms: "Recorderman" and "Glyn Johns" referred to techniques using 3 mics (plus snare?) as your entire drum miking technique. That many feel even adding the dedicated snare mic is already "cheating". I am not trying to say it's bad to 'cheat' - clearly miking up the drums is an art and whatever works - I am just saying that people seem to be stretching the terminology to the breaking point. Once I add anything like tom mics, under mics, outside kick, hi-hat, etc. I no longer think of myself as doing "Recorderman" or "Glyn Johns". Regardless of how I placed my overheads.

Maybe that's just me.

Seems to me that by the time you add all those other spot mics, your "Glyn Johns" is really just "overheads". If someone really wants to tend towards 'minimalism' and still have tom mics, why not go for a mono overhead? Why not one mic shared by both rack toms?
Old 16th May 2019
  #25
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Brian M. Boykin's Avatar
I base my less is more off not having room mics, a hi hat mic, a mic for the kick beater, a kick subharmonic mic, a mic on the ride, a condenser and a dynamic taped together for the snare top, and whatever else I’ve read people do. The foundation of my drum recordings are the two OH’s set up in recorderman and the kick. That can carry the entire kit and sometimes does. The rest are because I can. I usually gate the snare and Tom mics when I do use them just for the attack to allow them to cut through the mix, not for the body and depth of the drum itself. I let the OH’s capture that. I use parallel compression and smash the drum mix to bring up the volume of the kit. If I use lots of cymbals I may leave the OH’s out of the parallel compression and just squeeze individual mics so the individual drums don’t get lost in the mix. If it’s a simple song with fewer layered guitars then usually 4 to 5?mics is all I need. I record on the second floor of my house in an upstairs living room with coffa ceilings. The room is 3 sided with the 4th wall opening up into the downstairs. I think I measured the actual 4th wall which is on the other side of the opening to the 1st floor at 26ft away. I have a 6” cloud of Corning 703 over the kit. 6” bass traps of Corning 703 in the corners of the back wall, and 6” Corning 703 spaced on the walls. The room is not Symetrical. It works. I’d like to put more absorbers up in some spots to tame it even more. Not having a 4th wall and the entire downstairs for sound waves to spread out I think is the key to this room. When I first laid eyes on it I knew it was gonna sound good.
Old 16th May 2019
  #26
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
... I was always under the impression that the terms: "Recorderman" and "Glyn Johns" referred to techniques using 3 mics (plus snare?) as your entire drum miking technique.
To me, the gist of Glyn Johns is skewing the positions of the overheads to make it sound like the floor tom is just as high up as the other tom(s), while keeping the kick and snare in the middle. Add whatever spot mics you want.
Old 16th May 2019
  #27
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Brian M. Boykin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
To me, the gist of Glyn Johns is skewing the positions of the overheads to make it sound like the floor tom is just as high up as the other tom(s), while keeping the kick and snare in the middle. Add whatever spot mics you want.
And this is what makes it tricky. I imagine recorderman started as a modified Glyn Johns. It started by pulling the drums out into the room off the wall and swinging the floor tom mic back and ever upwards. It now has a direct line of sight with the kick and not with the hi hats. The floor Tom is right in the way of the kick in Glyn Johns unless you bring it up and back. I should probably play with it more but recorderman just works every time with a tape measure and proper placement. I can have it set up in minutes.
Old 16th May 2019
  #28
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian M. Boykin View Post
The floor Tom is right in the way of the kick in Glyn Johns unless you bring it up and back.
So bring it up and back. This is about how it sounds, not how it looks.
Old 16th May 2019
  #29
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Brian M. Boykin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
So bring it up and back. This is about how it sounds, not how it looks.
Touché.
Old 17th May 2019
  #30
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
If I miked up a drum kit the way you described but with X-Y as the overheads, could I still call myself a "less is more guy"?

Considering that the discussion is about what is classically considered a "3-4 mic technique" (and that some people in the thread are questioning even the "adding" of a snare mic) I would not call your setup "less is more". It strikes me a 'normal' or 'standard' drum kit miking. I frequently mic up the drums quite similarly. I just don't call it 'minimalist'.

I don't know about everyone else, but I was always under the impression that the terms: "Recorderman" and "Glyn Johns" referred to techniques using 3 mics (plus snare?) as your entire drum miking technique. That many feel even adding the dedicated snare mic is already "cheating". I am not trying to say it's bad to 'cheat' - clearly miking up the drums is an art and whatever works - I am just saying that people seem to be stretching the terminology to the breaking point. Once I add anything like tom mics, under mics, outside kick, hi-hat, etc. I no longer think of myself as doing "Recorderman" or "Glyn Johns". Regardless of how I placed my overheads.

Maybe that's just me.

Seems to me that by the time you add all those other spot mics, your "Glyn Johns" is really just "overheads". If someone really wants to tend towards 'minimalism' and still have tom mics, why not go for a mono overhead? Why not one mic shared by both rack toms?
Yes: well put!
Looking at old Olympic pics when GJ was recording, it’s usually two U67’s on OH/Side and a D20/30 on kick... there’s some variations as well: C12 on OH for Small Faces and an added C19 on rack tom for the Stones (both in 1967).
When I have done it, the “original” Olympic was has worked best (great drummers/kits/room)
I did a record with the U67’s replaced with a pair RCA 77dx’s, sounded great (no compression)

Best/
Tom
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