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Drum overheads SDC alternative to Oktava 012 Condenser Microphones
Old 12th December 2018
  #61
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by edva View Post
It does sound like they have inflated the price of those 137's.
All my price references are from Thomann, it's the more affordable store over here, maybe Shures are a bit more expensive because they are imported?
I think Beyers are made in Germany
Old 12th December 2018
  #62
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edva's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logima View Post
All my price references are from Thomann, it's the more affordable store over here, maybe Shures are a bit more expensive because they are imported?
I think Beyers are made in Germany
Shure KSM137 Stereo Pair | Sweetwater

Beyerdynamic MC 930 Stereo Set | Sweetwater
Old 12th December 2018
  #63
Gear Maniac
 

Wow, what a difference!
Old 12th December 2018
  #64
Gear Addict
Shure KSM 137 Stereoset – Thomann UK
beyerdynamic MC-930 Stereo Set – Thomann UK

Prices are a bit different in Europe.

FWIW, the highpass on the 930s is one that starts fairly high, with a shallow slope. I find that more useful than a steep slope at 80Hz.

Chris
Old 12th December 2018
  #65
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GreenNeedle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Logima View Post
Hello

I'm looking for a pair of sdc mics to use exclusively as drum overheads for rock/metal drums.
I already have a pair of Oktava 012 which I've used for years and I'm happy with, I'm looking for a pair of mics to use in darker sounding rooms/cymbals with a more pronounced top end than the Oktava's which I find quite warm sounding.
I already got several types of preamps to choose, I just need a feedback on the microphone type for a good starting point.
The new microphones I'm looking for should be more focused on capturing the cymbals than the whole kit.
After hearing a lot of comparisons and demos on the internet my choices are between this 4 models:

Shure SM81
Shure KSM 137
ATM450
Beyerdynamic 930

Any opinions you would like to share?
Thanks
AKG 414b uls
Old 12th December 2018
  #66
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rob S's Avatar
Roswell mini K47 it’s not small diaphragm but they are affordable and really good
Old 12th December 2018
  #67
Gear Nut
 

I don't think you can go wrong with the MC930, but IMO they are not brighter than the Oktava MK012. The MK012 has a slight upper mid push (similar to a KM84) and pretty big low end that make them perfect on acoustic guitar. The MC930 is just a very smooth and detailed mic. I don't think of them as bright at all. They definitely are not pushed in the upper mids. They have an open high end around 10K but don't sound bright at all.
Old 12th December 2018
  #68
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edva's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logima View Post
Wow, what a difference!

Yes. Of course price alone does not determine the sound, or the "worth", of a mic. Good luck.
Old 12th December 2018
  #69
Gear Maniac
 

I got the Beyers 930 at the end, I guess they are more than good for me and for what I'll have to record with them
Old 12th December 2018
  #70
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RightOnRome's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logima View Post
I got the Beyers 930 at the end, I guess they are more than good for me and for what I'll have to record with them
let us know how you like them!
Old 12th December 2018
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RightOnRome View Post
let us know how you like them!
Ok!
Old 12th December 2018
  #72
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
Shure has legendary build quality and consistency... it's a big part of their brand identity.

AT is similar to that, very consistent.

It really depends more on the specific factory, than a broad categorization of an entire country of billions.
Both brands (plus Blue IIRC) say that the mics are so closely matched that you can use any two, and skip 'matched pairs'.

OP- all of the mics you picked will do the thing, my preference is KSM141s, which some view as a better/newer/cheaper SM81. ATM450s are a popular and I see them selling very inexpensively used, but I haven't been wowed by the demos I've heard of them as overheads.

FWIW the last SDCs to really surprise me were Peluso CEM6's, and when I was in your position, I ended up with Blue Hummingbirds because I felt the price was too good to pass up.
Old 12th December 2018
  #73
Gear Maniac
 

Another vote for Josephsons! I got mine used for $700 USD and they are extremely detailed for cymbals - I especially love the way they bring out presence in drier/jazzier rides. The build quality is so high you can put your buying-used fears to rest.
Old 12th December 2018
  #74
Gear Maniac
 

Well, as I wrote before I just bought a pair of Beyer 930 today.
About the Josephson, I figured out in this days that U.s. made mics are more expensive here in Europe, seems that this works also the other way around.
Old 12th December 2018
  #75
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Logima View Post
Well, as I wrote before I just bought a pair of Beyer 930 today.
About the Josephson, I figured out in this days that U.s. made mics are more expensive here in Europe, seems that this works also the other way around.
Saw that after I posted. Beyers are great, and you should be very happy.
Old 13th December 2018
  #76
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bangbang View Post

FWIW the last SDCs to really surprise me were Peluso CEM6's, and when I was in your position, I ended up with Blue Hummingbirds because I felt the price was too good to pass up.
I'm curious to hear what you think of the Hummingbirds. I believe they are discontinued.
Old 13th December 2018
  #77
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edva's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logima View Post
I got the Beyers 930 at the end, I guess they are more than good for me and for what I'll have to record with them
I think you definitely made the right choice. Unless you have money to burn, those Shures were simply not worth the money they were asking for them. I've seen nice used ones here for way less than $200 U.S. It's not a bad mic, and the 141 variants are very nice, but the 930's are nicer, IMHO.
I think you will be extremely pleased with the Beyers. Good choice Now get a 201 for snare drum!
Old 13th December 2018
  #78
Gear Head
 

This thread got me thinking which then lead to listening/testing/recording.

Here are some clips of the AudioTechnica ATM450, Octava MC012 and a Bruel&Kjaer 4004(omni). Mics were closely arranged directly above the drummers knee and approximately 42" from the snare. Mic pres were my D&R Orion console, no eq or processing other than a phase inversion on the Oktava. Conversion was a Lynx Aurora @44.1khz.

Please excuse the drumming, it was done by a carpenter who hasn't touched drums in 20+ years.
Attached Files

ATM450 Overhead.mp3 (2.14 MB, 407 views)

MC012 Overhead.mp3 (2.14 MB, 408 views)

4004 Overhead.mp3 (2.14 MB, 413 views)

Old 13th December 2018
  #79
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodwolf View Post
This thread got me thinking which then lead to listening/testing/recording.

Here are some clips of the AudioTechnica ATM450, Octava MC012 and a Bruel&Kjaer 4004(omni). Mics were closely arranged directly above the drummers knee and approximately 42" from the snare. Mic pres were my D&R Orion console, no eq or processing other than a phase inversion on the Oktava. Conversion was a Lynx Aurora @44.1khz.

Please excuse the drumming, it was done by a carpenter who hasn't touched drums in 20+ years.
Thanks for this. Pretty interesting to hear shootouts like this.
Old 13th December 2018
  #80
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by edva View Post
I think you definitely made the right choice. Unless you have money to burn, those Shures were simply not worth the money they were asking for them. I've seen nice used ones here for way less than $200 U.S. It's not a bad mic, and the 141 variants are very nice, but the 930's are nicer, IMHO.
I think you will be extremely pleased with the Beyers. Good choice Now get a 201 for snare drum!
Got it.
At the end I ended up buying also an M88 for the guitar cabinet, to use in conjunction with the typical sm57. I thought it could be useful to record this band, I will compensate this mics expenses with the rate for the recording.
I heard some clips of the 201 on snare and sounded good but I can't go into the idea of upgrading the close drum mics now, also I almost always record crazy raw and loud bands with bestial drummers and I would not put an expensive mic near their sticks
Old 13th December 2018
  #81
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodwolf View Post
This thread got me thinking which then lead to listening/testing/recording.

Here are some clips of the AudioTechnica ATM450, Octava MC012 and a Bruel&Kjaer 4004(omni). Mics were closely arranged directly above the drummers knee and approximately 42" from the snare. Mic pres were my D&R Orion console, no eq or processing other than a phase inversion on the Oktava. Conversion was a Lynx Aurora @44.1khz.

Please excuse the drumming, it was done by a carpenter who hasn't touched drums in 20+ years.
Thanks for the shootout, the recording that sounded more pleasant to me was that of the Oktavas.
I think the drumming is fine!
Old 13th December 2018
  #82
Lives for gear
 
Ragan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
I don't really understand the anti china thing to be honest
A classic syndrome. Usually rears it’s head JUST after the results of the blind AB are revealed. Never before.
Old 13th December 2018
  #83
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logima View Post
Got it.
At the end I ended up buying also an M88 for the guitar cabinet, to use in conjunction with the typical sm57. I thought it could be useful to record this band, I will compensate this mics expenses with the rate for the recording.
I heard some clips of the 201 on snare and sounded good but I can't go into the idea of upgrading the close drum mics now, also I almost always record crazy raw and loud bands with bestial drummers and I would not put an expensive mic near their sticks
The M88 is ALWAYS a good buy. I haven't made a record without them in a long time. Truly my favorite mic.
Old 13th December 2018
  #84
Lives for gear
 
monkeyxx's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodwolf View Post
This thread got me thinking which then lead to listening/testing/recording.

Here are some clips of the AudioTechnica ATM450, Octava MC012 and a Bruel&Kjaer 4004(omni). Mics were closely arranged directly above the drummers knee and approximately 42" from the snare. Mic pres were my D&R Orion console, no eq or processing other than a phase inversion on the Oktava. Conversion was a Lynx Aurora @44.1khz.

Please excuse the drumming, it was done by a carpenter who hasn't touched drums in 20+ years.
Cool.

Clips are not level matched, that would help the comparison a bit.

4004 sounds much bigger than the other two

oktava, I can see why people like the idiosyncratic sound quality it's pleasing on the cymbals for example. not the most "transparent" sound quality however. In my experience the size and shape of the drum image is something critical to capture and a lot of budget mics struggle with this. That's why I recommend the KSM137 over the SM81 for example. I don't think it's a strong suit for the oktava, I never fell in love with them over the drums.

AT sounds OK. doesn't seem to "hug" the cymbals as much as the oktava. seems like a good budget pick. most definitely better than an MXL 991 (shudders, ends post)
Old 13th December 2018
  #85
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragan View Post
A classic syndrome. Usually rears it’s head JUST after the results of the blind AB are revealed. Never before.
I reply to this since the text you quoted is an answer to something I wrote before.

I have at least 4 mics made in China, there is no "anti" thing going on.
And even if that was the case you shouldn't call opinions that you don't agree with "syndrome", beacuse is like saying to someone that he's an idiot for having a preference different from yours.

"Ab tests", who would fool himself in spending more on a mic he liked less than a cheaper one in a blind test?
The only reason I can think of is impressing clients with expensive brands, which is surely not my case. I don't own any high end piece of gear, the most expensive mic I own costs around 400 euros
Old 13th December 2018
  #86
Lives for gear
 
Ragan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Logima View Post
I reply to this since the text you quoted is an answer to something I wrote before.

I have at least 4 mics made in China, there is no "anti" thing going on.
And even if that was the case you shouldn't call opinions that you don't agree with "syndrome", beacuse is like saying to someone that he's an idiot for having a preference different from yours.

"Ab tests", who would fool himself in spending more on a mic he liked less than a cheaper one in a blind test?
The only reason I can think of is impressing clients with expensive brands, which is surely not my case. I don't own any high end piece of gear, the most expensive mic I own costs around 400 euros

I was intending to respond to the anti-Chinese bias as a general thing, not to anything specific to this thread.

I speak from experience as I’ve posted blind AB’s between 3U Audio and Neumann before and in a couple of cases the 3U mic has been picked by more ears...until the results get posted. Then plenty of “the Neumann is WAY better” opinions show up.
Old 13th December 2018
  #87
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
Cool.

Clips are not level matched, that would help the comparison a bit.

4004 sounds much bigger than the other two

oktava, I can see why people like the idiosyncratic sound quality it's pleasing on the cymbals for example. not the most "transparent" sound quality however. In my experience the size and shape of the drum image is something critical to capture and a lot of budget mics struggle with this. That's why I recommend the KSM137 over the SM81 for example. I don't think it's a strong suit for the oktava, I never fell in love with them over the drums.

AT sounds OK. doesn't seem to "hug" the cymbals as much as the oktava. seems like a good budget pick. most definitely better than an MXL 991 (shudders, ends post)
The 4004 mics sound bigger because they're omnidirectional.

My idea is that what you should look in mics, until at least you have lots of money to spend, is:

- polar diagram (across frequencies)
- max SPL rating and/or distortion at a target SPL
- only generally speaking frequency response (when peaks or troughs or roll-offs are over +-4/6dB)

Polar response (across frequencies, I stress: an SDC is going to have a wider pick up span on the treble range compared to an LDC) and max SPL ratings are important because they determine most of the character and applications of a microphone.
Once the mics have picked up what they were supposed to pickup up... We use digital boards and computers today. We have EQs, the kind of which people would have dreamed about back in the era of analog mixing, not to mention all sorts of signal shaping. I don't think we should get too hung up on the natural sound of the mics, or gear in general. Of course, having a microphone that has just the right sound is fine, it allows you to focus on other things, but if you have a small studio with little choice of microphones, I'd focus on getting a wider variety of *types* of microphones rather than one good microphone, because as you can hear in the clips, an Omni is going to sound much bigger but also sort of indistinct compared to cardioids. They should also be placed differently (no point in having them in an XY configuration, omnis are to be used either mono or with large time difference configurations, eg. AB).

Then maybe all three sets of mics are omnis and I look like a fool. :D
Old 13th December 2018
  #88
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monkeyxx's Avatar
I do see people using omnis in XY sometimes.

I guess I disagree with the gist of the post. Microphone quality is concern #1 after you've got the source sorted out. Good source, good mic, good room, great performance, most of your work is done at this point. I'm not a big fan of "fixing" things if I don't have to. In fact I spend a lot of time learning my mics and my sources to get me ahead when it comes time to track.

I also think there's more going on with the B&K than the polar pattern. No it's not a fair test but that mic sounds really good in the posted clips. Listen to how much more "real" it sounds than the other mics.

Oktava 012 is available in omni but I would guess that was the cardioid cap. ATM450 is cardioid pattern. In this clip the ATM450 is hyping the snare in a weird way that I don't like. Oktava is flattening the image in a way I don't like.
Old 13th December 2018
  #89
tiv
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodwolf View Post
This thread got me thinking which then lead to listening/testing/recording.

Here are some clips of the AudioTechnica ATM450, Octava MC012 and a Bruel&Kjaer 4004(omni). Mics were closely arranged directly above the drummers knee and approximately 42" from the snare. Mic pres were my D&R Orion console, no eq or processing other than a phase inversion on the Oktava. Conversion was a Lynx Aurora @44.1khz.

Please excuse the drumming, it was done by a carpenter who hasn't touched drums in 20+ years.

Thanks for the audio clips I preferred the Oktavas - are they original mc012s or modded?
Old 14th December 2018
  #90
Gear Head
 

The Oktava and the AudioTechnica were both cardioid. The Oktava is unmodded but did come from The Sound Room and I think they did a little extra quality control.

I agree Monkeyxx on the realism of the B&K, they’re a different class of microphone to my ears and they cost 30x more than I paid for my pair of ATM450s or MC012. Using them as a main pair on an orchestra is truly a thing of beauty. Even compared to the B&K 4006 the 4004 just has something special about its realism, probably due to its 130v phantom power supply. Through really clean mic preamps the detail is almost scary.
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