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How to get that AC/DC drumsound! Condenser Microphones
Old 21st November 2018
  #31
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MacMike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
We use km84 on snare top, but it’s better if it’s medium hit, not hard hit.
I will try the KM84 on the snare top to see how it works...otherwise it will be some kind of dynamic mic on it I believe.
Old 21st November 2018
  #32
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MacMike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by andychamp View Post
To be fair, I know the thrill of nailing a familiar tone, so I‘ll wish you much success anyway.
I was just kidding!
Its NOT easy at all...but it will be fun to try and see how close we can get in this case.
Old 21st November 2018
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamboom View Post
As was mentioned earlier, the song production has a ton of impact on the drum sound that you will achieve, regardless of mic selection. Leaving ample space for Kick and Snare in the parts that are played will make all the difference.

Smack everything liberally with saturation (tape emulation, multiband saturator etc) so that your transients are knocked down but the perceived volume is high. This will make a big difference with how well the kit (especially snare) punches through.

Really experiment, particularly with the snare tuning and muffling and with the snare mic placement. With some tweaking of these 3 elements you can usually arrive at something pretty great. Exhaust this before you touch an EQ.

Good luck!
Hey!

The songs that will be recorded are arranged in an AC/DC-way already but it looks as I will take part as a co-producer so I think I will change a couple of guitarriffs here and there to make space for the drums.

Actually that was my first thought about this project...to put tape-plugins on each track (in the mix) to let the transients come off a bit and get more of that beefy/punchy sound. I will try a couple of plugins and see what works best.

Yepp, we'll be experimenting a lot with skins, sticks, muffling, tuning, micplacements etc to see how close we can get with the stuff thats in the studio. I hardly ever use Eq when recording...placement and the right mic will do the trick.
Old 21st November 2018
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboJets View Post
The last paragraph in the section title "That Guitar Sound"

Classic Tracks: AC/DC 'Back In Black' |
Thats interesting! I wonder if the wireless-systems in that age wasnt very transparent...and therefore they could use it to change their sound in a more pleasant way. Thinking that a loud Marshall sounds a big s***** and get more under "control" when a wireless-system takes of some of that hard treble...hmm...pretty interesting!
Old 21st November 2018
  #35
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MacMike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
True. Once the basic sound is there to capture, so much fun to be had in tweaking the gears.
Yeeeeeees!!!
Old 21st November 2018
  #36
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MacMike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireMoon View Post
I'd begin the session by having a single Beta 58 over the top of the kit and just listen to the channel flat, no compression etc whilst having the drummer play through a couple of the songs. That will tell you pretty much all you need to know about how it's going to work when you start adding other mics.
Sometimes I almost do the same but I usually put up a condenser in front of the kit (AKG414) to get a hold of the songs...maybe I should try the Beta58 next time!
Old 21st November 2018
  #37
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MacMike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
SO TRUE!

Part of the brilliance is how the guitar is totally out of the way of the back beat, especially on Back in Black.



Phil used a larger stick in his left hand, and played it backward to add to the thickness.

---

On the list I'd try:
the Beyers on OH
441 on snare (Maybe KM84)
Beta 52 BD in
Lawson BD out
421 rack tom
U87 floor tom (maybe the D112)
U67 about 4-5 feet out, snare height at the drummers 10 O'clock pointing at the snare shell
R84 Blumlein Room
one of the Miktek on Hats. I really like dynamics on hats.

The GTQ2 is cool on BD and SD, maybe the other Neve on outside BD.
Universal 4110 on OH and Stereo room
6176 on the mono room U67 (tube on tube on tube)
GML on the toms?
SSl for the hat.
Great input...

My "planningpaper" looks almost the same as your take on it.
Didnt plan the 441 on the snare but it might get there in the end...its a fat snaresound so maybe it will fit just right...I'll add a 57 under the snare though for blending in the mix. The U87 on the FT could be nice...the FT is probably the tom that the drummer will play the most so why not let the U87 do the job. Wish I had two U87's for the OH but not this time.

I really like the Mikteks, the PM11 sounds great on kicks, it's tuned for a fat kicksound with a nice top for the klicksound...and also the PM10 works great on snares and toms...havent tried it yet on HiHat but I like dynamic mics on the Hat so why not.
Old 21st November 2018
  #38
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MacMike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
Yeah man when someone comes in with dbled gtrs that play constantly..and have a counter line and keyboards then say can I get a big fat snare .....I put on back in black and go.."like this?" and then explain why they cant
He he...that is a classic moment...happens all the time when people want every single instrument to sound "larger than life" in the same mix...well, good luck Chuck!
Old 21st November 2018
  #39
People always talk about the iconic Bonham drum sound.
But Led Zeppelin was basically a trio of players, and the drums were only competing with bass and however many guitars Paige laid down.
I see a lot of modern drummers chasing the Bonham sound, but to me it doesn't work in most modern dense mixes with layered guitars and keyboards.
Old 21st November 2018
  #40
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MacMike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
People always talk about the iconic Bonham drum sound.
But Led Zeppelin was basically a trio of players, and the drums were only competing with bass and however many guitars Paige laid down.
I see a lot of modern drummers chasing the Bonham sound, but to me it doesn't work in most modern dense mixes with layered guitars and keyboards.
Totally agree with you...its strange how many songs today get crowded in the arrangement, like they think it will be better the more instrument they have...or do they wanna cover up bad recording/takes.
Old 21st November 2018
  #41
Bit of both I think.
Old 21st November 2018
  #42
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMike View Post
I will try the KM84 on the snare top to see how it works...otherwise it will be some kind of dynamic mic on it I believe.
I've recently changed over from dynamic on top head to a SDC about 2 inches over the rim, aimed parallel to the head. Loving it!
Old 21st November 2018
  #43
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMike View Post
Great input...

My "planningpaper" looks almost the same as your take on it.
Didnt plan the 441 on the snare but it might get there in the end...its a fat snaresound so maybe it will fit just right...I'll add a 57 under the snare though for blending in the mix. The U87 on the FT could be nice...the FT is probably the tom that the drummer will play the most so why not let the U87 do the job. Wish I had two U87's for the OH but not this time.

I really like the Mikteks, the PM11 sounds great on kicks, it's tuned for a fat kicksound with a nice top for the klicksound...and also the PM10 works great on snares and toms...havent tried it yet on HiHat but I like dynamic mics on the Hat so why not.
I'm not familiar with the Miktek models, Sounds like the OM11 BD mic could be better than the B52. Of course, for a more "classic" tone you could put the 421 in the BD and put the PM10 on rack tom, but that messes with the HH...

U87 on floor tom can be magic. Sometimes the problem is that it takes over, and there rarely a reason for the floor tom to dominate... You can still back off the fader and have a great tone, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
Yeah man when someone comes in with dbled gtrs that play constantly..and have a counter line and keyboards then say can I get a big fat snare .....I put on back in black and go.."like this?" and then explain why they cant
I've had this conversation many times with many people. They don't realize that its a 2 bar lick and the only time there's anything WITH the snare is on the last beat of the second measure, and its a single not in the guitar line, NOT a chord.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMike View Post
He he...that is a classic moment...happens all the time when people want every single instrument to sound "larger than life" in the same mix...well, good luck Chuck!
YO!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
People always talk about the iconic Bonham drum sound.
But Led Zeppelin was basically a trio of players, and the drums were only competing with bass and however many guitars Paige laid down.
I see a lot of modern drummers chasing the Bonham sound, but to me it doesn't work in most modern dense mixes with layered guitars and keyboards.
Economy of arrangement. As dense as Jimmy Page could make things, it was nothing like how people pile on instruments and sunds today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMike View Post
Totally agree with you...its strange how many songs today get crowded in the arrangement, like they think it will be better the more instrument they have...or do they wanna cover up bad recording/takes.
I think its a bit of the "why does a dog lick his balls" thing. "Because he can," people just keep adding things because the tech allows for that to happen easily.
Old 21st November 2018
  #44
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vernier's Avatar
Vanda / Young albums are the ones that truly cook.
Old 21st November 2018
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vernier View Post
Vanda / Young albums are the ones that truly cook.
I do wish there was more info on how they were engineered.
Old 22nd November 2018
  #46
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MacMike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Bit of both I think.
Yepp, unfortunately!
Old 22nd November 2018
  #47
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MacMike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
I've recently changed over from dynamic on top head to a SDC about 2 inches over the rim, aimed parallel to the head. Loving it!
Sometimes I do that when recording jazzdrums but not rock...but this time I will try with KM84 and maybe the great "Black Pearl" too.
Old 22nd November 2018
  #48
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MacMike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
I'm not familiar with the Miktek models, Sounds like the OM11 BD mic could be better than the B52. Of course, for a more "classic" tone you could put the 421 in the BD and put the PM10 on rack tom, but that messes with the HH...

U87 on floor tom can be magic. Sometimes the problem is that it takes over, and there rarely a reason for the floor tom to dominate... You can still back off the fader and have a great tone, though.
Mikteks are good stuff...I think its "handmade" in Nashville or something like that and I've seen a couple of the "big names" using the mikes. I am often using the PM11 over Beta52 and D112, it really sounds nice, the sound is already there somehow...they got the frequencies right so you dont need to tweak it that hard. And sometimes its just right with that Beta52!

I have used other LCD's on toms before but not U87's. I dont like the new ones at all...its a vintage or nothing for me...the new ones sound boxy and harsch in a strange way...I never get it to sound good on anything. I had three new U87's and sold them after just a couple of months, couldnt get a good sound out of them...hmm.
But I will put the vintage mic I got on the floortom in this case and I know it will sound absolutely great!
Old 22nd November 2018
  #49
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMike View Post
Mikteks are good stuff...I think its "handmade" in Nashville or something like that and I've seen a couple of the "big names" using the mikes. I am often using the PM11 over Beta52 and D112, it really sounds nice, the sound is already there somehow...they got the frequencies right so you dont need to tweak it that hard. And sometimes its just right with that Beta52!

I have used other LCD's on toms before but not U87's. I dont like the new ones at all...its a vintage or nothing for me...the new ones sound boxy and harsch in a strange way...I never get it to sound good on anything. I had three new U87's and sold them after just a couple of months, couldnt get a good sound out of them...hmm.
But I will put the vintage mic I got on the floortom in this case and I know it will sound absolutely great!
I've seen the Miktek stuff, and it seems pretty solid. I like that they are making NEW dynamics.

My U87 is vintage as well. You'll really dig in on Floor tom.
Old 22nd November 2018
  #50
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charlieclouser's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMike View Post
Thats interesting! I wonder if the wireless-systems in that age wasnt very transparent...and therefore they could use it to change their sound in a more pleasant way. Thinking that a loud Marshall sounds a big s***** and get more under "control" when a wireless-system takes of some of that hard treble...hmm...pretty interesting!
That's exactly what the deal was. The Schaffer-Vega Diversity System wireless rig for guitar, circa 1976-77, had a compander type deal - it would compress the signal at the transmitter and then expand it at the receiver in order to get a little more dynamic range out of the thing. This circuit had the side effect of changing the tone / bite / dynamics just a little bit, but that little bit made all the difference in Angus's tone. Since his rig is just an SG and a Marshall, if you're chasing his tone you're splitting millimeter-sized hairs trying to get there - especially if you're missing the crucial ingredient which is Angus himself.

Legend has it that during the recording of Back In Black, the tone Angus was getting in the studio was just a little bit "off" from what he was used to on stage, and so Mutt asked Angus, "what's changed in your setup?" to which Angus replied, "the only thing that's different is I'm not using that wireless thing". So they brought it into the studio and BOOM. There it was. Not sure how true that is, or how many songs it was used on, or what... but that's the story you always hear. Information about their album production techniques is pretty thin on the ground, so who knows.

Anyway, a dedicated Italian super-fan went down that rabbit hole a few years back, and wound up finding Ken Schaffer who made those original wireless systems. Long out of the pro audio field and moved on to other things, he miraculously had a few of the original wireless systems in the closet, which he lent to the super fan, who then painstakingly recreated the circuitry (minus the wireless part) and made it into a commercial product which you can buy, in either replica "box" format or convenient standard pedal format. He delivered the first two to Angus himself, and it is now in use in Angus's rig, as seen in this Rig Rundown video at around 13:10:

YouTube

The story is fascinating and a great example of chasing that last 1% of tone. You can read more about it in excruciating detail, and buy the "Schaffer Replica" products, here:

SoloDallas.com | The Schaffer Replica by SoloDallas.com

That same fanatic Italian also went down the rabbit hole of recreating the heads that Angus favors, and offers a hand-built replica, as well as pickups that are said to be identical to what Angus uses - all available on that same website if you poke around a bit.

Watch the whole rig rundown video and you'll see that other than the heads, the very specific pickups (wax I think?), and the Schaffer replica wireless box, the rest of Angus's setup is pretty much stock stuff. It's worth watching in its entirety as they talk about very specific details like the resistance of the pickups, etc. But there's nothing too surprising - it's Ernie Ball 9-42 Slinky strings, Fender extra-heavy picks (the older ones with stamped, not silk-screened logos for a little extra grip), ordinary pots... nothing too special there.

What's special is the little gremlin piloting the thing!

Last edited by charlieclouser; 23rd November 2018 at 01:42 AM..
Old 23rd November 2018
  #51
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMike View Post
Thats interesting! I wonder if the wireless-systems in that age wasnt very transparent...and therefore they could use it to change their sound in a more pleasant way. Thinking that a loud Marshall sounds a big s***** and get more under "control" when a wireless-system takes of some of that hard treble...hmm...pretty interesting!
My thought exactly. Next thing up... old (i.e. vintage) wireless guitar systems skyrocket in value
Old 23rd November 2018
  #52
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charlieclouser's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post

My thought exactly. Next thing up... old (i.e. vintage) wireless guitar systems skyrocket in value
Yep. Or just buy the pedal-sized unit here:

SoloDallas(R) Storm(R) Presence 9V Pedal – SoloDallas LLC

... and you've got a duplicate of the sonic character of Angus's original wireless system, minus the wireless part.
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