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Best microphione to match my voice? Condenser Microphones
Old 26th July 2018
  #1
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Best microphione to match my voice?

Hi,

I’m starting out as a narrator and would really appreciate any suggestion of which microphone might suit my voice. An audio recording is attached. I did splash out and buy a Sure KSM 313 (using the rear side), which I used for this recording (no treatment) with a BabyfacePro interface and Grace m101 preamp, but I would love to know if its as good as it can be, or if one of these other mics would be better, for my particular voice?

From my research, it looks like one of these mics could work for narration, but my question is more about my voice, because I know they are all a little different: Sennheiser MKH416, Audio-Technica AT4047, AKG C414 XLS, Sontronics Saturn, Shure KSM44, MJE Hulk 990, Sure KSM 313 (rear side). Probably the Neuman TLM 103 is too expensive.

Advice much appreciated.

Warwick
Attached Files

Warwick - samplke audio.mp3 (111.6 KB, 539 views)

Old 26th July 2018
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romus View Post
Hi,

I’m starting out as a narrator and would really appreciate any suggestion of which microphone might suit my voice. An audio recording is attached. I did splash out and buy a Sure KSM 313 (using the rear side), which I used for this recording (no treatment) with a BabyfacePro interface and Grace m101 preamp, but I would love to know if its as good as it can be, or if one of these other mics would be better, for my particular voice?

From my research, it looks like one of these mics could work for narration, but my question is more about my voice, because I know they are all a little different: Sennheiser MKH416, Audio-Technica AT4047, AKG C414 XLS, Sontronics Saturn, Shure KSM44, MJE Hulk 990, Sure KSM 313 (rear side). Probably the Neuman TLM 103 is too expensive.

Advice much appreciated.

Warwick
None of the mics you quoted will sound as nice for spoken word as the Shure ribbon. Definitely not the TLM 103, it's super bright for spoken word, and not in a nice way.

The sound in the recording is great (I would EQ out the spike in the upper midrange, though) but there is a surprising amount of hiss, considering you used the Grace M101 preamp. Did you go from that into the mic inputs of the Babyface?
Old 26th July 2018
  #3
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I think The Shure SM7B will go well with your voice. It will sound really nice with the low end of your voice.
Old 26th July 2018
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DistortingJack View Post
None of the mics you quoted will sound as nice for spoken word as the Shure ribbon. Definitely not the TLM 103, it's super bright for spoken word, and not in a nice way.
Good to know, good decision then. Thanks for listening to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DistortingJack View Post
The sound in the recording is great (I would EQ out the spike in the upper midrange, though) but there is a surprising amount of hiss, considering you used the Grace M101 preamp. Did you go from that into the mic inputs of the Babyface?
That spike, I'm not attuned to the frequencies yet, but I gave it a go (see attached) I lowered -3dB as a bell curve with a Q ranging across from 2Khz - 4 Khz.

mic is plugged into a Cloudlifter, into the m101 (gain set just over 12 o'clock, and HPF button on), into the BabyfacePro (gain at 0) into PC. I thought that was right?
Attached Files
Old 26th July 2018
  #5
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Cleaning up that hiss needs to be your first priority. After that it depends on what you plan to narrate. If it's acx the mic you have may already be fine. If it's broadcast you'll need to spend some cash. Hiss first.
Old 26th July 2018
  #6
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I would remove the Cloudlifter, use the Grace M101 by itself, and send the output to one of the jack inputs on the right, which works as a line input according to RME without going into any extra preamp.

I don't think you need the Cloudlifter with the M101.

I would even try the mic directly into the RME inputs and compare hiss levels.
Old 26th July 2018
  #7
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What does the Grace m101 change the input impedance to when it's in ribbon mode?
Old 26th July 2018
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DistortingJack View Post
I would remove the Cloudlifter, use the Grace M101 by itself, and send the output to one of the jack inputs on the right, which works as a line input according to RME without going into any extra preamp.

I don't think you need the Cloudlifter with the M101.

I would even try the mic directly into the RME inputs and compare hiss levels.
You mean connecting it as per the attached diagram? And if so what would be a good cable? That would be different. At the moment I am going to the Mic input at the back of the Babyface.
Attached Thumbnails
Best microphione to match my voice?-connecting-m101-babyfacepro.jpg  
Old 26th July 2018
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon Adkins View Post
What does the Grace m101 change the input impedance to when it's in ribbon mode?
Yes it does, I beleive, but you are told to turn on the phantom power button on the preamp when the Cloulifter is conneced, thereby that disables the m101 ribbon mode button. I found this, though I dont understand it:

"According to Sank, the 3kOhm resistive input load is ideal for most passive ribbon microphones. Mics plugged into the Cloudlifter will see this 3kOhm load, regardless of the downstream preamp’s input impedance. A side-effect of this design is that if your preamp offers variable input impedance — the point of which is to color (or, arguably, to uncolor) the sound of the microphone — then the Cloudlifter will essentially disable this feature.

I've ordered a cloudlifter CL-Z which has an variable impedence knob and a varable HPF, so maybe those controls will help, I'll try it.
Old 26th July 2018
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romus View Post
Yes it does, I beleive, but you are told to turn on the phantom power button on the preamp when the Cloulifter is conneced, thereby that disables the m101 ribbon mode button. I found this, though I dont understand it:

"According to Sank, the 3kOhm resistive input load is ideal for most passive ribbon microphones. Mics plugged into the Cloudlifter will see this 3kOhm load, regardless of the downstream preamp’s input impedance. A side-effect of this design is that if your preamp offers variable input impedance — the point of which is to color (or, arguably, to uncolor) the sound of the microphone — then the Cloudlifter will essentially disable this feature.

I've ordered a cloudlifter CL-Z which has an variable impedence knob and a varable HPF, so maybe those controls will help, I'll try it.
Grace makes top shelf products, and I totally agree with the person who said you should take the Cloudlifter out of the chain. Run the Grace in ribbon mode and see what happens.
I use an AEA RPQ with my ribbons, and it's dead quiet. Before that I tried a Cloudlifter and there's no question that the RPQ ran dead quiet at gain levels that I couldn't approach when using the Cloudlifter with my ISA One or stock pres (yes I compensated for the gain that the Cloudlifter adds).
Try the Grace by itself.
Old 26th July 2018
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DistortingJack View Post
I would remove the Cloudlifter, use the Grace M101 by itself, and send the output to one of the jack inputs on the right, which works as a line input according to RME without going into any extra preamp.

I don't think you need the Cloudlifter with the M101.

I would even try the mic directly into the RME inputs and compare hiss levels.
I did get the cloudlifter after the m101 because the m101 on its own meant I had to crank the gain up to about 3pm, and the difference between 12 oclock and 3 pm added quite a lot more hiss. With the cloudlifter the gain on the m101 is now just past 12 oclock, which reduced the hiss to the level you hear.

I think I tried the mic-Cl-babyface, but I will test that again. Pretty sure it was a better sound with the m101 - no noisier. I did realise to bypass the preamps on the babyface, which I believe happens when the gain is set to 0 on the babyface, for the reason that if it's up more than zero there is hiss added because of both preamps in a line.

I can get the hiss out a lot using software, RX6 Voice denoiser (it learns the noise, then cuts it), and Waves WNS (where you can select the noise area to make a profile, yhen apply it) These can take the noise floor from -55dB to 70db, and the voice is clean to my ears, BUT I know it is better to reduce the hiss as much as possible in the recording chain, so as to use less of the denoising.

As well as trying your suggestions, I'm getting a Cloudlifter CL-Z which has an impedence matching button.

I might also get a Regulated Power supply unit like 0 to 30VDC 0 to 5A Regulated Power supply | Jaycar Electronics or [url=https://www.jaycar.com.au/1500va-900w-230vac-lcd-line-interactive-ups-with-usb/p/MP5207[/url]. I have a Furman Power conditioner, so probably dont need it, but might be worth a try. I talked to the electrician previously about getting a direct power line installed, and he thought this would be better. Wouldnt be a mistanke because the second one will protect from lightning strikes, more than the furman.
Old 26th July 2018
  #12
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Could you just take off the Cloudlifter, put the M101 in Ribbon Mic Mode, plug it into the XLR mic input of the Babyface set to 0 gain, and upload?

I can't believe you would get that much hiss from that chain. Something might be malfunctioning.

I hope you also tried removing the M101 from the equation to see if it's the source of the hiss – this would imply you'd have to get it repaired.

Btw the EQ definitely helps the sound, also a standard XLR female to TS 1/4" jack lead would work for the line input on the Babyface.
Old 26th July 2018
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon Adkins View Post
Grace makes top shelf products, and I totally agree with the person who said you should take the Cloudlifter out of the chain. Run the Grace in ribbon mode and see what happens.
I use an AEA RPQ with my ribbons, and it's dead quiet. Before that I tried a Cloudlifter and there's no question that the RPQ ran dead quiet at gain levels that I couldn't approach when using the Cloudlifter with my ISA One or stock pres (yes I compensated for the gain that the Cloudlifter adds).
Try the Grace by itself.
I did try it, earlier on, and I thought it was better with the Cloudlifter, because I was getting hiss when the gain on the m101 was aover 12 oclock. But maybe it is somethign esle, and when I tried this before I had never done this before. I probably know a bit more now, and could have done it wrongly in some crazy way. I'll try it again.

Thanks for your suggestion.
Old 26th July 2018
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DistortingJack View Post
Could you just take off the Cloudlifter, put the M101 in Ribbon Mic Mode, plug it into the XLR mic input of the Babyface set to 0 gain, and upload?

I can't believe you would get that much hiss from that chain. Something might be malfunctioning.

I hope you also tried removing the M101 from the equation to see if it's the source of the hiss – this would imply you'd have to get it repaired.

Btw the EQ definitely helps the sound, also a standard XLR female to TS 1/4" jack lead would work for the line input on the Babyface.
I'll try it again. When I was first messing with the order of things I was completely new and could have plugged it or set things wierdly. I'll try again. Thanks for your help.
Old 26th July 2018
  #15
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I'm assuming the kind of VO you'd be doing is narrations & such, not dollar-a-holler informercials. The mic you have sounds good -- you have a bit of trebly junk in your delivery that the ribbon helps to mitigate. I'd just get a LOUD preamp, like the AEA meant-for-ribbons one. Around here, I use an API, sometimes along with a Cloudlifter.
Old 26th July 2018
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DistortingJack View Post
Could you just take off the Cloudlifter, put the M101 in Ribbon Mic Mode, plug it into the XLR mic input of the Babyface set to 0 gain, and upload?
This.

Going in through the balanced XLR inputs set to 0 gain is the best/preferred way to connect a typical outboard preamp to the Babyface Pro, per RME anyway. The side inputs 3 & 4 are unbalanced TS inputs.

Also the M101 has an unbalanced TS 1/4" out. So if you did want to go in through the unbalanced Inputs 3/4 on the side of the Babyface Pro, no need for XLR-to-1/4" adapter, just use a 1/4" TS cable into the unbalanced side inputs on the Babyface Pro. Wouldn't be my first choice but maybe worth a try.

M101: "Built in as standard is our unique Ribbon Mic Mode, which bypasses the input decoupling capacitors, raises the input impedance from 8.1kΩ to 20kΩ, and defeats the 48V phantom power, preventing damage to delicate ribbon mic elements. Ribbon mics, you’re welcome.

The gain range is 10-75dB, including the additional +10dB of gain available with the output trim control."

Seems like an excellent fit for this use. The RME has a stated 65db of gain.
Old 26th July 2018
  #17
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There's no way you should be getting any hiss with that preamp.
Things to check:
I don't know the Babyface at all, but if the line in has a choice between -10 or +4, pick the latter. And definitely make sure there's no gain from your interface pre added.
If you're using a high shelf eq, and you boost it quite a bit, you'll end up with a bunch of hiss with any ribbon mic because there's not much going on up there. You're literally boosting noise. That's why you use the Grace in ribbon mode. It changes the impedance to an obscenely high number, which helps the mic to reach further up. Then when you boost those highs, there's actually a signal to boost.
It's either one of those things, or something needs maintenance. Or that Grace pre just isn't as quiet as advertised (I've never personally used it, but their reputation is built on quiet, clean gain). In the same price range is the AEA TRP, and I can personally guarantee that one won't be noisy.
Old 26th July 2018
  #18
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One more thing...
If I remember correctly, that Shure mic is tailored for close mic'ing applications. If that's true (and I'm not certain it is) you have to be within a few inches of the mic, or it would be asking too much of any pre to handle things without noise.
Old 26th July 2018
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bowzin View Post
This.

Going in through the balanced XLR inputs set to 0 gain is the best/preferred way to connect a typical outboard preamp to the Babyface Pro, per RME anyway. The side inputs 3 & 4 are unbalanced TS inputs.

Also the M101 has an unbalanced TS 1/4" out. So if you did want to go in through the unbalanced Inputs 3/4 on the side of the Babyface Pro, no need for XLR-to-1/4" adapter, just use a 1/4" TS cable into the unbalanced side inputs on the Babyface Pro. Wouldn't be my first choice but maybe worth a try.

M101: "Built in as standard is our unique Ribbon Mic Mode, which bypasses the input decoupling capacitors, raises the input impedance from 8.1kΩ to 20kΩ, and defeats the 48V phantom power, preventing damage to delicate ribbon mic elements. Ribbon mics, you’re welcome.

The gain range is 10-75dB, including the additional +10dB of gain available with the output trim control."

Seems like an excellent fit for this use. The RME has a stated 65db of gain.
Thanks for that. Yes I checked also the specs for the
AEA TRP2 which has 85dB of gain (63 mic gain +22 outputgain. The Grace m101 has 75 + 10db trim (which I poresume is the same as output gain).

The impetence level is different, The AEA TRP2 has 63K Ohms, the Grace m101 has an Impedance at mic input of 20k when ribbon button on.

I read at Royer labs website: "In order to deliver its full frequency response, a ribbon microphone needs to see an input impedance of at least 4-5 times its output impedance. For example, if a microphone has an impedance of 300-Ohms, the preamplifier should have an input impedance of 1200 to 1500 Ohms, or greater.

So the sure The Sure KSM313 is 330ohms output impedence, so 330 x 5 = 1650ohms, being a necessary or greater. So the Grace m101 should be fine at 20K.

Since I have a Cloudlifter LC-Z coming I checked that. It's variable impedence knob goes up to 15K, so ample there too, will be interesting to see if that setting has an effect over the present Cloudlift LC-1.

IN the mean time I am going to test again removing the Cloudlifter from the circuit, and check that again. I'll post that in a day.

Thanks for helping.
Old 26th July 2018
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon Adkins View Post
There's no way you should be getting any hiss with that preamp.
Things to check:
I don't know the Babyface at all, but if the line in has a choice between -10 or +4, pick the latter. And definitely make sure there's no gain from your interface pre added.
If you're using a high shelf eq, and you boost it quite a bit, you'll end up with a bunch of hiss with any ribbon mic because there's not much going on up there. You're literally boosting noise. That's why you use the Grace in ribbon mode. It changes the impedance to an obscenely high number, which helps the mic to reach further up. Then when you boost those highs, there's actually a signal to boost.
It's either one of those things, or something needs maintenance. Or that Grace pre just isn't as quiet as advertised (I've never personally used it, but their reputation is built on quiet, clean gain). In the same price range is the AEA TRP, and I can personally guarantee that one won't be noisy.
Thanks for helping. Whats' that -10 or +4 you are refering to, for the Interface?
Old 27th July 2018
  #21
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Shure SM7B and Heil PR40 are well known voice over / broadcast / podcast mics.
Old 27th July 2018
  #22
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There might be hiss in there, but it would be riding on a prevalent 50hz hum component.

I chopped out the main audio and left the quieter gaps between and then normalized. Between zero crossings is 0.02 secs (50hz) which Rightmark Analyzer and the OP's Brit accent confirmed.
Attached Thumbnails
Best microphione to match my voice?-hum.jpg  
Old 27th July 2018
  #23
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You don't need a different mic. Ribbon mics have been used for high-end broadcast and spoken word applications for decades.

You just need to find out why you're getting hiss. Ribbon mics (and in fact no passive dynamic mic) don't generate hiss, and as several have said before, using the gear you have correctly, you shouldn't get that level of hiss either unless one of them is malfunctioning.

Ground buzz is another story, and that's unrelated to the white noise hiss that is clearly audible in the recordings.

Let us know once you've done the test with the in ribbon mode.

Another thing it could be is that you have an angry snake in your room
Old 27th July 2018
  #24
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Think I've got it

I think I might have it, listen to the attached. I did a reset of my Interface setting, which I think clered the hiss, so I dont know what wierd setting, I had. Then I recorded with Cloudlifter off, then on, then off, then close 2" to the mic, then worked on swapping in and moving leads around. Taking out the cloudlifter, mostly took out the 50Hz peak. The m101 is cranked up to 90% of its gain when I am 2" from it, but that still sems to be okay, which surprises me. Do you agree, it's better with the Cloudlifter out, with speaking close to the mic? Is the last part of the track the better after changing the leads?

I suppose I could crank it right up? like at the first section of the file, and allow like 6" to the mic, it's still quiet, hard to believe. Even though it seems to work at 2", that doesn't feel natural/comfortable, and there is nothing in the actual manual saying it's designed as a close mic.

The hum that was there in the original, mostly goes away when the Cloudlifter is removed, but now that I'm noticing that, I can see some of those same sort of peaks at the high end. So it looks like those hums are equipment based, and in either case I can EQ them out with subtractive EQ, narrow bell or notch filters, correct?

The other thing I just read about impedence, because I have ordered a Cloudlifter CL-Z with an impedence control, is as per the Shure manual: "The higher the impedence input on the microphone, the better the low-end and midrange frequencies are represented in the output signal. Sure recommends using preamaps with impedence settings of 1000 Ohms or more (Grace m101 okay there at 20K in ribbon mode), although different load impedences may be used for a desired sound quality." So, I am wondering - do you think my voice could do with better low end and midrange frequencies? If so, putting the cloudlifter CL-Z on and turning up the impedence could be a good thing (it goes up t 15K). That also explains something about the AEA TRP which has 63K Ohms, so probably the the low-end and midrange frequencies shine more with the TRP, maybe seeming louder, something like that.

Hey, just to say, the help I've been given in this, my first post on this site, has been absolutely amazing, and radically saved me. I really appreciate it :-)
Old 28th July 2018
  #25
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The Cloudlifter is very much harming the sound quality. Don't use it.

People freak out when gain pots are almost all the way up, but the range is there for you to use it. If it's not distorting and it doesn't have hiss, then it's 100% fine to use something maxxed out.

2–5 inches away from the mic is fine.

The hum might partly be the cables (never use questionable leads) but it could actually be some room tone – you should check that.

The only thing is now you need to EQ the sound a bit because it's a bit wooly. Do you like the sound of the mic, though? Would you like it to be brighter, warmer, more midrangey, etc?
Old 28th July 2018
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DistortingJack View Post
The Cloudlifter is very much harming the sound quality. Don't use it.

People freak out when gain pots are almost all the way up, but the range is there for you to use it. If it's not distorting and it doesn't have hiss, then it's 100% fine to use something maxxed out.

2–5 inches away from the mic is fine.

The hum might partly be the cables (never use questionable leads) but it could actually be some room tone – you should check that.

The only thing is now you need to EQ the sound a bit because it's a bit wooly. Do you like the sound of the mic, though? Would you like it to be brighter, warmer, more midrangey, etc?
yep, that's what I thought by the sound of it. I've just had it in my head not to crank the volume up, but there is the evidence here where there is no more noise introduced.

About the EQ question I agree it's a bit 'wooly', whatever that is. When I've tried EQing my recordings, I got some nice results using FAbfilter Multiband compressor, and also I used some Pultec which brightenned it up, which I liked. With the EQ, I just end up muddling and trying different things evey time I approach it - I think my ears aren't trained enough yet.

Because I am doing audio narration I want to get a good range in my voice because I am trying to shape shift my voice to fit different characters, sometimes men and sometimes women, where I might be more chest voice or more head voice. So whatever EQ I do it needs to work for that range - I don't know what that means in terms of EQ.

What I really need is for someone like yourself, to have a go at EQing my voice and let me know the settings, you use, probably by screen shot. I have all the fabfilter plugins, and I did like the Pultec (Jack Joseph Puig collection). I'd be happy to pay for the service. That would give me a base to work from. What do you think? Or could you make a recommendation along those lines?
Old 28th July 2018
  #27
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When I record fingerpicked acoustic with a ribbon, I'm usually at around 72db of gain.
Old 28th July 2018
  #28
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First things first, noise issues can be dealt with later: I find the sound to be very boxy, as if you are speaking inside a very small cabinet. If I had to listen to this for an hour I would be totally exhausted.

If I were to record your voice I would for sure pull out my Sanken CU-44xII and connect it to something like an RND Portico II Channel, for naturalness with utmost charm while retaining best mid-range detail. I do realize that this would be a pretty expensive combo, but the results would be absolutely stellar.

If I look at what you have, and given the impression I have of your voice, I would certainly try a Shure 5575LE Unidyne with the Grace in ribbon mode and a very high quality short quad cable (no longer than 1 meter), such as Sommer Epilogue. I mention this because I have found that the amount of hiss can be decreased tremendously using a good short quad cable with passive microphones and the Sommer in particular gave a huge improvement.
Old 28th July 2018
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romus View Post
What I really need is for someone like yourself, to have a go at EQing my voice and let me know the settings, you use, probably by screen shot. I have all the fabfilter plugins, and I did like the Pultec (Jack Joseph Puig collection). I'd be happy to pay for the service. That would give me a base to work from. What do you think? Or could you make a recommendation along those lines?

How about this: Look for the best-sounding recording you can find, the highest-quality and most euphonic-sounding recording of spoken voice in your opinion.

Post it here. And then we can help.

People have tastes even in archival voice recording, and it will be like chasing dragons if you don't have an "end game" so to speak.

Another thing you might find by doing this is that most spoken-word recordings out there, even many professional ones, are quite mediocre.
Old 28th July 2018
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
First things first, noise issues can be dealt with later: I find the sound to be very boxy, as if you are speaking inside a very small cabinet. If I had to listen to this for an hour I would be totally exhausted.

If I were to record your voice I would for sure pull out my Sanken CU-44xII and connect it to something like an RND Portico II Channel, for naturalness with utmost charm while retaining best mid-range detail. I do realize that this would be a pretty expensive combo, but the results would be absolutely stellar.

If I look at what you have, and given the impression I have of your voice, I would certainly try a Shure 5575LE Unidyne with the Grace in ribbon mode and a very high quality short quad cable (no longer than 1 meter), such as Sommer Epilogue. I mention this because I have found that the amount of hiss can be decreased tremendously using a good short quad cable with passive microphones and the Sommer in particular gave a huge improvement.
I just bit the bullet and ordered a pair of 1 meter Sommer Epilogue cables. I know when I was changing around cables, it does make a difference, so I've gone with that, thanks. I'll see what that does before moving on the microphone.

RND Portico II Channel? Budget issue on that. Have to be in the future :-)
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