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Reverb. My biggest hurdle in mixing. Reverb & Delay Plugins
Old 12th July 2018
  #121
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I'm not s huge fan of adding a different reverb type to each instrument. I look at reverb as the overall space you're in. I will add a different reverb in that overall space if it adds something or I want the effect like a retro spring on a guitar.... A bunch of different reverbs can make it sound like people are in different spaces and not really conducive to gluing a mix.....
Old 12th July 2018
  #122
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

At 122 posts in, how has nobody said this:

"If you really think that reverb is your biggest hurdle in mixing... I can almost guarantee that it's not."
Old 12th July 2018
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
I'm not s huge fan of adding a different reverb type to each instrument. I look at reverb as the overall space you're in. I will add a different reverb in that overall space if it adds something or I want the effect like a retro spring on a guitar.... A bunch of different reverbs can make it sound like people are in different spaces and not really conducive to gluing a mix.....
It's dependent upon style, really. For your average rock/pop/instrumental tune your general philosophy is a good base idea, although there are exceptions, but for experimental and electronic music different reverb spaces are actually very common.
Old 12th July 2018
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by open_source View Post
It's dependent upon style, really. For your average rock/pop/instrumental tune your general philosophy is a good base idea, although there are exceptions, but for experimental and electronic music different reverb spaces are actually very common.
Yep! I do mostly ballads. Always a problem with sweeping statements!.....Electronic would be very much dependent on each instrument having it's own effect.....
Old 12th July 2018
  #125
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Quetz's Avatar
I've started beginning every project with a template that has 8 verb returns, a la Al Schmitt

I've settled on a general room, that some instruments get sent to if I want a common space, and I almost always send it some of the bass.
The drums get their own plate, plus I have a separate 'shimmer' plate for adding a bit of zing to things if they warrant it; usually the vocal gets some, and the guitars, and whatever else.

I have a spring (Softube) for acoustic guitar which I really like at the mo, then I have some algorithmic stuff (Softube TSAR and VDSP Vintage Verb - usually use a c9ouple of instances of the VV with either different spaces or same space with different pre-delay times).

I'll send to stuff based on what sounds good, coherent and vibey, not based on whether it all sounds like it's in the same room. I just want to create a nice soundscape that makes sense, I'm not really bothered about if it sounds like it's all in the same space or not, tbh.
Sounds like hard work
Old 12th July 2018
  #126
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Little delay and ambience is always good if you want to create pockets....! Personally I like something like a lush big verb and then something with some early reflections or plate zing on the vocal and what I want to bring forward. I do try to keep it simple since I love reverb (and can go down a rabbit hole really quickly)! (Again ballads,,,,)
Old 14th July 2018
  #127
Gear Nut
 

It's probably been mentioned, but when you start to throw automation into the process then things can get a lot more creative, at least in terms of sound design. You might have a sound that exists in a smaller space, but at the end of a specific bar or area where you are leading into a transition, that same sound might be fed into a larger reverb where you automate the mix of the large reverb to have a specific, one-off extended reverb for that sound before going back to the original reverb mix.

Whether you have that larger reverb in series with the smaller one depends on the clarity and type of sound you are going for. Likely you'd have that larger reverb on its own bus, and then crossfade automations where you lower the mix/send of the small space while increasing the send to the larger space, etc. So really what I'm describing here is more for specific "events" in the tune, rather than setting up 3D imaging for the overall mix.
Old 14th July 2018
  #128
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monkeyxx's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by open_source View Post
It's probably been mentioned, but when you start to throw automation into the process then things can get a lot more creative, at least in terms of sound design. You might have a sound that exists in a smaller space, but at the end of a specific bar or area where you are leading into a transition, that same sound might be fed into a larger reverb where you automate the mix of the large reverb to have a specific, one-off extended reverb for that sound before going back to the original reverb mix.

Whether you have that larger reverb in series with the smaller one depends on the clarity and type of sound you are going for. Likely you'd have that larger reverb on its own bus, and then crossfade automations where you lower the mix/send of the small space while increasing the send to the larger space, etc. So really what I'm describing here is more for specific "events" in the tune, rather than setting up 3D imaging for the overall mix.
Oh sure yeah, sort of dub type mixing, that's a great method. You can really add excitement with this type of reverb send.
Old 14th July 2018
  #129
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Lance Lawson's Avatar
 

As often as not I will set the reverb in an effects send with a predetermined timing etc. From there I add more or less to each track from that reverb bus. The amount and depth can change but when the timing is the same it gives the entire mix a more cohesive sound. Also I am a fan of the Abby Road EQ it really changes the game.
Old 14th July 2018
  #130
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Quetz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by open_source View Post
It's probably been mentioned, but when you start to throw automation into the process then things can get a lot more creative, at least in terms of sound design. You might have a sound that exists in a smaller space, but at the end of a specific bar or area where you are leading into a transition, that same sound might be fed into a larger reverb where you automate the mix of the large reverb to have a specific, one-off extended reverb for that sound before going back to the original reverb mix.
This can really help to just cross the Ts and dot the Is.

I've got a good example of a mistake and something that worked in one track doing this.
This isn't my music just my mix (turn it up), and I still have my L plates on so please don't interpret this as a plug, but I think it's interesting to hear an example.

At 38/39 seconds, I've missed my automation cue to bring in the 'small' reverb, and the plosive on the word 'stop' is way too dry.

Then skip to the end at 3.59 where the last vocal phrase starts, and at about 4.06 you can hear where I've ramped up the reverb, reminded me of the Stone Roses quite arbitrarily.
I've slightly mistimed it there as well, should hit max swell on the word 'heaven', for my taste, and I've also marginally overcooked it.

It's not much, but it helps make life a bit more interesting, for sure
Attached Files
Old 14th July 2018
  #131
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Quetz's Avatar
PS

Here's the text from Mr. (apologies!) Emerick's answer in the Q&A section to a question about the Neve story (was at Air Studios):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Emerick
I detected that there was a lack of sparkle on those desks, after discussing the problem with Rupert he came to AIR Studios and we sat down and I tried to explain my problem. He understood where I was coming from. He then went away and came back with what he told me was a modification to the module but he was trying to catch me out just to check that what I was hearing was still the same. After many meetings with Rupert at the studios over a few months he eventually came up with the solution. I think he changed the transformer and transistors because what he had detected from our meetings was that what I was FEELING rather than HEARING was harmonics derived from 50K, Rupert tells this story at many of the talks he gives. There were never three modules wired incorrectly and yes this modified desk was as far as I can remember used for the recording of " BRIDGE OF SIGHS "
Old 14th July 2018
  #132
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Timothy Lawler's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetz View Post
...I've got a good example of a mistake and something that worked in one track doing this... At 38/39 seconds, I've missed my automation cue to bring in the 'small' reverb, and the plosive on the word 'stop' is way too dry.
Mistake? I thought it was just right. I liked the feel of the moment just after the "p" in "stop".

Quote:
...skip to the end at 3.59 where the last vocal phrase starts, and at about 4.06 you can hear where I've ramped up the reverb...
Sounds good.


Quote:
It's not much, but it helps make life a bit more interesting, for sure
Nice mix. I like the mandolin especially (it was beautifully recorded) - and the way it interacts and balances with the cello. And none of that goodness got in the way of the main vocal in the mix. Well done.
Old 15th July 2018
  #133
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetz View Post
This isn't my music just my mix (turn it up), and I still have my L plates on so please don't interpret this as a plug...
Thanks for posting!

Not your music... it's a client's music, or from a mix off... or...?

What are L plates?
Old 15th July 2018
  #134
I struggle with Reverb too. I always think Plugins sound kinda cheesy or something. Not to say I don't use them, but never thrilled or look forward to it.

I wish a had a real EMT Plate or better yet a re-creation of Gold Star Studios chamber in my basement.

I used to have a AKG BX-10 which was pretty cool, but now I gotta get by with mostly spring reverbs, a Strymon Blue Sky and a couple other old early digital verbs.

I think I need to just pony up for Altiverb. That plugin never goes on sale tho!
Old 15th July 2018
  #135
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by contramark View Post
I wish a had a real EMT Plate or better yet...
Back when that's what most everyone had, most everyone wished it did more than just the one thing. So they got creative with speakers and bathrooms and hallways and stairwells and whatever. Nothing stopping you from doing that.
Old 15th July 2018
  #136
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Quetz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler View Post
Mistake? I thought it was just right. I liked the feel of the moment just after the "p" in "stop".

Sounds good.
I'ts just a matter of taste is't it! potato purtarto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler View Post
Nice mix. I like the mandolin especially (it was beautifully recorded) - and the way it interacts and balances with the cello. And none of that goodness got in the way of the main vocal in the mix. Well done.
Thank you, I'm slowly improving!
The cello and mandolins were my favourite part of that mix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Thanks for posting!

Not your music... it's a client's music, or from a mix off... or...?

What are L plates?
It was a mixoff grabbed from Mike Senior's multitrack library:
Mixing Secrets For The Small Studio (Cambridge Music Technology)

L = Learner (driver)
Old 15th July 2018
  #137
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Forgive me here though if there’s on rule about Pro Audio and the Equipment used in conjunction with it?

It is - “RTFM”

Or again!

“READ THE F€¥£ING MANUAL”

Regards
TLB




Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioFreq View Post
I am really confused about your question.
And forgive me if I come across as brash.

Simply add a reverb and play around with the parameters.

Do you like what you hear? If so document that or better yet; save those settings as a Preset. DONE!

Reading manuals and instructions is not going to get you any where.

Things like reverb is very personal and so interpretation does not help.
I can say use this reverb this way but that may not connect with you.

Just play around, experiment and save your preset.

If you are having trouble with Reverb, then you are taking the process too seriously. Don't second guess, just do it!

Remember find a reference track similar to the music you are attempting to apply reverb to, what does that track/song sound like?


AI
Old 15th July 2018
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
At 122 posts in, how has nobody said this:

"If you really think that reverb is your biggest hurdle in mixing... I can almost guarantee that it's not."
Maybe because the Op said it?
Ha!
Old 15th July 2018
  #139
Gear Maniac
 

The Bricasti M7 has outdoor presets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne View Post
Here's one I have yet to 'crack.
We do amplified acoustics in the park gigs. Small rig, guitars mando and bass w/pickups into our amps, directs into the board and captured multi-track.

Now my gotcha', on mix down we (I..) can imagine' an audience perspective of the 'stage image and out door space'. But for the life of me I can't get a handle on what ambiance tools convey that.
To follow the logic of 'recreate the space', what is that? Soft defused echos from across the field ? That ain't it.
So, I go with a nice Lexi reverb that sounds nice and doesn't scream "well is it live or isn't?"

A long time ago I heard this delicious 'return off a a grove of red woods.
Tried, and failed to nail that one too.

There are some good Lexicon documents where they address some of this.
It also gives a look into why the I/R's of real spaces might not be the 'Be all end solution.
Page 5-3 here if it's of interest.
https://3e7777c294b9bcaa5486-bc95634...2_original.pdf
Old 15th July 2018
  #140
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastByte View Post
Maybe because the Op said it?
Ha!
What the OP actually said was...

Quote:
... I still don’t have a grip over reverb. And that’s the only thing I don’t seem to get around.
So reverb is the only thing our OP has left to solve about mixing.

A classic example of Epstein/Barr, or Dun & Bradstreet, or Fletcher/Munson, or whatever it's called when you're too clueless to know how clueless you are.
Old 15th July 2018
  #141
An old(er) engineer with decades of experience and hundreds of albums under his belt taught me to use the same reverb on everything, set up as sends on the console. Each track gets more or less of this same verb. I found it really helps to glue everything together, even more so than compression could.
Old 15th July 2018
  #142
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Coates View Post
An old(er) engineer with decades of experience and hundreds of albums under his belt taught me to use the same reverb on everything, set up as sends on the console. Each track gets more or less of this same verb. I found it really helps to glue everything together, even more so than compression could.
When guys like started out, one reverb was probably all they had.
Old 15th July 2018
  #143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
When guys like started out, one reverb was probably all they had.
Yep, and it was usually an EMT plate.
Old 15th July 2018
  #144
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RedBaaron's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
At 122 posts in, how has nobody said this:

"If you really think that reverb is your biggest hurdle in mixing... I can almost guarantee that it's not."
I sort of agree with that sentiment. I see a lot of folks obsessing over the minutia of settings. From my observations, one can just throw up Valhalla Plate or Vintage Verb, SLate or Liquid Sonic's Bricasti emus, or one of the better Lexicon clones from PSP , for example, and it will sound awesome soloing a single track just using the stock settings.

The challenge doesn't seem to be getting a good-sounding reverb; it's getting reverb to 'sit' well in the mix without the whole thing becoming a muddy piece of crap. And the reason it becomes that is because the mix typically doesn't have a strategy for creating the rear of the sound-stage ; everything is crammed upfront and center, and fighting for volume in that limited space. Which I consider to be a larger mix problem than just the reverb itself (although I'm not so sure everyone shares that conviction nowadays).

So , rather than obsess over the minutia of settings,etc, I'd suggest to those fumbling to first trying to route the reverb to the right buss in the mix, and have a good look at mid-side processing and stereo/spatial arrangement tools to get it to "sit right" . I always like Sonalksis for this task, and mid-side tools like PSP Older Timer ME or the new Magpha EQ. Then, once you the verb's basic place in the mix assigned, you can start tweaking the actual verb settings more effectively.
Old 15th July 2018
  #145
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBaaron View Post
The challenge doesn't seem to be getting a good-sounding reverb; it's getting reverb to 'sit' well in the mix without the whole thing becoming a muddy piece of crap...
Yes, that's a challenge, but it's not at all what I meant.
Old 15th July 2018
  #146
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RedBaaron's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Yes, that's a challenge, but it's not at all what I meant.
Apologies for misconstruing your words. What did you mean then?
Old 15th July 2018
  #147
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBaaron View Post
Apologies for misconstruing your words. What did you mean then?
Aside from the reverb, pulling all the other aspects of a mix together.
Old 15th July 2018
  #148
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RedBaaron's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Aside from the reverb, pulling all the other aspects of a mix together.
Yeah good use of reverb won't save a mix from bad use of anything else.

Reverb seems to be a particular challenge even for otherwise fairly capable and seasoned mixers . The other day I was watching the Tchad Blake Pensado's PLace episode. They asked him if he still mixed with little to no 'verb. He said something to the effect of "now that I know how to do it, I use it. I could just never get it right!

I for one felt slightly less goofy after watching that, for having tripped up over 'verb so much over the years....
Old 15th July 2018
  #149
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBaaron View Post
Yeah good use of reverb won't save a mix from bad use of anything else.

Reverb seems to be a particular challenge even for otherwise fairly capable and seasoned mixers . The other day I was watching the Tchad Blake Pensado's PLace episode. They asked him if he still mixed with little to no 'verb. He said something to the effect of "now that I know how to do it, I use it. I could just never get it right!

I for one felt slightly less goofy after watching that, for having tripped up over 'verb so much over the years....
This is amusing to me on a couple of levels. Mostly though, because I do a lot with little artificial reverb, AND I was always drawn to Tchad Blake things.
Old 15th July 2018
  #150
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RedBaaron's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
This is amusing to me on a couple of levels. Mostly though, because I do a lot with little artificial reverb, AND I was always drawn to Tchad Blake things.
Yeah it's one of those things that everyone seems to have a different approach on, and some (otherwise capable) mixers' approaches just don't have much luck with.
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