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Reverb. My biggest hurdle in mixing. Reverb & Delay Plugins
Old 1 week ago
  #31
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sagar4848 View Post
Hey!

I’ve been producing electronic music for about 6 years now seriously and I still don’t have a grip over reverb. And that’s the only thing I don’t seem to get around.
Here are a few things about reverb I have learned over the years.... (in my experience only)

Subtlety is the key, often its not necessary to add more than 30% (ish) reverb to a track or a bus either as a send or inline plugin. 10% to 15% is usually enough, or even less. If you are making sound effects or crazy stuff this doesn't apply.

The reverb plugins that come with your in your DAW are usually fine for most jobs where reverb is required. They are also quicker/simpler to setup and use less CPU than many 3rd party plugins.

Low cut the reverb (this has already been mentioned). Putting reverb on low frequencies is like spraying yourself in the face with bear mace. Worth doing once just to see what happens but after that you will try to avoid it.

I have found early reflections work well on more transient heavy or percussive material. Likewise for the opposite.

The first reflection is important as that delay in time is what tells the brain how long or big the reverb is. 'Psycho acoustics' and all that stuff blah blah.

Take a sample, reverse it, put a long reverb on it, bounce it down, then reverse it again. Hours of fun.

Last edited by lanmonkey; 1 week ago at 11:11 PM..
Old 1 week ago
  #32
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lanmonkey View Post
.. The first reflection is important as that delay in time is what tells the brain how long or big the reverb is. 'Psycho acoustics' and all that stuff blah blah. ...
Taken a step further.. That Haas delay/precedence thing, means -assuming small enough patches or not already built into the patch..
In the zero-to 10ms predelay range the verb tends to be heard as 'attached or part of the source.
(That range typically is for percussive sounds. Might extend out further for sustained stuff.
Try a kit in a suitably small-to-medium room or chamber/plate.
0 to 10ms or so varies the depth or decay, but still part of the kit image'. Out a bit further and you begin to hear it as a 'back wall or 'kit in the room.

Fun stuff.
Old 1 week ago
  #33
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seedee701's Avatar
i'm recording a 'pop / electro' project right now. we decided to record every real instrument in a big church as a concept (organ, drums, piano, vocals....)
it really changes my perspektive on reverbs, and i'm so thankful for the experience. very emotional.
predelay, mix, colour, density - it's all there: move the intrument or the mics, change mics, hit harder or softer, change polar pattern . i love it!


i own all sorts of reverbs, from springs to bricasti and then the usual load of plugins. whatever they try to do they are great tools for different jobs.
but hey, nothing comes even close to a real space, not even the bricasti, not even in the ballpark. somehow they can sell the illusion but in comparison ther is so much missing, it's scary.

we had water damage in our cellar and had to completely empty a (non-rectangular) room...
this thing had such a beautyful reverb, it's insane. instant reverb-chamber.

scary how one get's used to 'solutions' forgetting how the real thing sounds...
Old 1 week ago
  #34
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
no worse than when people abbreviate "July" as "Jul."
Try 50ms of lay on that guit.
Old 1 week ago
  #35
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Try the Abbey Road reverb trick as others have mentioned!

YouTube
Old 1 week ago
  #36
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sagar4848 View Post

I don’t want to know how each parameter works or how it will affect a sound.
Reverb controls are archaic, non intuitive and in modern contexts obsolete in many ways. However to be fair, companies like Lexicon and AMS couldn't design useful UIs back in the day due to limitations in processor speed. So they used the Schroeder terminology which is pretty irrelevant today. Most developers these days just cut and paste the old algorithms out of books so the outdated terminology unfortunately goes along with it.

In your case what you need to do is strategize what your goal is. Why are you using reverb? for space? for some special effect? then play with the control and listen to the result. then apply it.

this paper describes the common control terminology and what they do

https://mycourses.aalto.fi/pluginfil...algorithms.pdf
Old 1 week ago
  #37
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Dr. Mordo's Avatar
 

Pretty much everything you need to know is in this thread already, mostly in the first post!

One tip I'll add is to experiment with very small doses of reverb.

These days, for most of my mixes I will:

Create a buss called REVERB
Run pretty much every instrument but bass guitar to that REVERB buss
1st plug-in on REVERB - set up a high pass filter at 200-300 Hz, possibly a low pass filter at 8-10 kHz
2nd plug-in on REVERB - Load on it whatever reverb you want to use (Vahalla Room is my current fav), set it for 100% effect, no source
Turn REVERB down all the way
Start the track, then bring up the REVERB fader until you can just barely hear it, then down it down a hair.

That fader level, where you can just almost hear it, it your starting point. Add a bit more or less to taste, but if you can easily pick out the reverb, it is too loud. If you mute REVERB now, you'll hear a subtle but noticeable difference, but when it's going with the music it just adds a barely perceptible layer of glue.

Importantly, you will want to adjust the level of the feed from your instrument channels to REVERB to control how much verb is on each instrument. I'll typically run the voice a couple of dB hotter than anything else, and the rest I tweak by ear.

I have really gotten to like this approach of using a tiny bit of reverb on everything. It really glues the mix together in a subtle way. I will sometimes then add other verb effects like a short room to the drums or a delay to the guitars or vocals, but my primary reverb is on that REVERB buss.
Old 1 week ago
  #38
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Mordo View Post
These days, for most of my mixes I will:

[... followed by what he does...
A less-complicated version of that is pretty much what everyone did all the time, pre-DAW. And when you say, "every instrument but bass guitar...," kick drum would be another exception. First time you put a kick through a real spring or plate is when you learn why you might not want to.
Old 1 week ago
  #39
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Dr. Mordo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
A less-complicated version of that is pretty much what everyone did all the time, pre-DAW. And when you say, "every instrument but bass guitar...," kick drum would be another exception. First time you put a kick through a real spring or plate is when you learn why you might not want to.
I know it's an old-fashioned approach, I think I read about it here!

The kick drum is a good point, but the 200 Hz HPF before the reverb fixes low end issues and personally I still want reverb on the kick's attack.
Old 1 week ago
  #40
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Mordo View Post
I know it's an old-fashioned approach, I think I read about it here!

The kick drum is a good point, but the 200 Hz HPF before the reverb fixes low end issues and personally I still want reverb on the kick's attack.
In your DAW setup, no problem. With a real spring or plate it probably would be, even with the hpf.
Old 1 week ago
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclenny View Post
Just underscoring this as it is such a good way to really hear what your verbs and delays are doing.
Solo the verbs to hear what they are doing.
Old 1 week ago
  #42
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In Electronic Music, 90% of the time you will hear delay+reverb or delay only but very rarely only reverb although a neophyte will swear that it is just a reverb. There are different ways to do it but just for the heck of it, try this:

Create an insert with this:
Delay with a dotted 1/8 or regular 1/4. Hi pass at 600Hz and LoPass at 9khz if possible
, add a slight modulation. Feedback at 30%
After the delay add a plate reverb 0.80-1.00 long with no pre-delay
On the entire insert use a high pass at 400khz

The idea is that your delay gets smeared and you don't really hear the repetitions. I also use the same approach but with a ping-pong delay or a dotted 1/8 + a 1/4 before feeding the reverb.

When you'll realize that all those years you heard "reverb" when it was actually smeared delay you'll have an epiphany.

Last edited by numero6; 1 week ago at 06:57 AM..
Old 1 week ago
  #43
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noisewagon View Post
Solo the verbs to hear what they are doing.
To do that you have to make all the reverb sends pre-fader, a recipe for chaos.
Old 1 week ago
  #44
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
To do that you have to make all the reverb sends pre-fader, a recipe for chaos.
One solution I sometimes use to mute things is a separate bus named "sink" that has always it's fader all the way down (basically assigning something to "sink bus" makes it inaudible). Then if I want to mute some track without changing its fader or mute switch, I reassign it temporarily to "sink" and then undo when I have heard what I needed.

And when I mess up, it's always easy to recover, because I can check for channels assigned to "sink bus" (usually there should be none, sometimes maybe a sample used for sidechaining).
Old 1 week ago
  #45
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andychamp's Avatar
TL/DR
The hardest for me is to decide whether I want the reverb to realistically simulate a room to place the instruments in, if I want it to give a source some „other-worldly“ texture or sensation, or if dry would be best...

Each approach seems to work well on its own, and pretty easy to realize.
The struggle begins when I need to reconcile them in a production, make them work side by side, and not to lose track of which is which. At some point the (simulated) realism always seems to clash with the (invented) effect, and the dry sounds seem a little out of place.

I have no recipe or trick as to how to resolve this, but I think the solution would drastically improve my mixes
Old 1 week ago
  #46
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stevelindsay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7up partridge View Post

4. Try calling it "echo". It will confuse everyone, but it sounds really neat!
Speaking of that, I applied for a job as an echo once ..... but I'm still waiting to hear back.
Old 1 week ago
  #47
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

A good sound engineer friend of mine says I reverb. Like, if the point of what is said is the signal.....and then offering up angle upon angle on the point becomes reverb. He shouts 'REVERB!' at me mid conversation, as if to try and mute the return. Rude bastard.
Old 1 week ago
  #48
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Unclenny's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noisewagon View Post
Solo the verbs to hear what they are doing.
Actually, for me the most useful part about stopping the song to listen to the reverb or delay is hearing how they work with the timing of the song.
Old 1 week ago
  #49
Gear Maniac
 

For honest, acoustic based music I find reverb fx to be terribly artificial. I think I'd rather hear the sound of your living room in all it's glory than the sound of a fake space added on to a dead track.
Old 1 week ago
  #50
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
For honest, acoustic based music I find reverb fx to be terribly artificial. I think I'd rather hear the sound of your living room in all it's glory than the sound of a fake space added on to a dead track.
Ambience in mixing is like sincerity in acting. If you can fake that...
Old 1 week ago
  #51
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Ambience in mixing is like sincerity in acting. If you can fake that...
I believe you!
Old 1 week ago
  #52
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
For honest, acoustic based music I find reverb fx to be terribly artificial.
that's why so many engineers minimize the reverb

Quote:
I think I'd rather hear the sound of your living room in all it's glory than the sound of a fake space added on to a dead track
Nobody said it was supposed to be easy. But IMO, if you add 3 or 4 carefully chosen 'fake' spaces - in tasteful amounts - it can really improve your dead living room by leaps and bounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn
Ambience in mixing is like sincerity in acting. If you can fake that...


As soon as you choose one mic over another mic, and place that microphone here instead of there you are manipulating the sound. There is no such thing as an "honest" recording. There are only recordings that do a better job of giving the listener the feeling of honesty.
Old 1 week ago
  #53
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Timothy Lawler's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
As soon as you choose one mic over another mic, and place that microphone here instead of there you are manipulating the sound. There is no such thing as an "honest" recording. There are only recordings that do a better job of giving the listener the feeling of honesty.
Well said.
Old 1 week ago
  #54
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
There is no such thing as an "honest" recording. There are only recordings that do a better job of giving the listener the feeling of honesty.
I'm with ya.

It seems that 'the feeling of honesty' is not a universal goal in production for all genres. To me, 'honesty' means I can visualize a performance happening in real time in a real space. Just do that (by any means), and I'm good!
Old 1 week ago
  #55
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
It seems that 'the feeling of honesty' is not a universal goal in production for all genres.
It most certainly isn't. But I wouldn't call the other ways "dishonesty."
Old 1 week ago
  #56
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
It most certainly isn't. But I wouldn't call the other ways "dishonesty."
I like to feel the humanity in a recording, and there are many ways and levels of accomplishing that! We can call it honesty if we like..or not.
Old 1 week ago
  #57
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
I like to feel the humanity in a recording, and there are many ways and levels of accomplishing that! We can call it honesty if we like..or not.
Forget who said it, but yes, to a degree it's genre- and trend-dependent. Like those REO Speedwagon and Journey and Mr. Mister records where it seems like they wrote the songs by starting with Big Reverb and then filling it up with stuff.

I imagine if the same songwriter wrote one song in a stairwell and another song in a coat closet, those two songs would be pretty different. Two different kinds of honest.
Old 1 week ago
  #58
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
For honest, acoustic based music I find reverb fx to be terribly artificial. I think I'd rather hear the sound of your living room in all it's glory than the sound of a fake space added on to a dead track.
When I do purely acoustic projects, I mostly just use room mics and skip reverb processors. One thing I like to do is put up a pair of mics and keep them up the whole time, even for overdubs (if the project has overdubs) and place people in in different places in the room. That simulates them all having been there together.
Old 1 week ago
  #59
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by andychamp View Post
TL/DR
The hardest for me is to decide whether I want the reverb to realistically simulate a room to place the instruments in, if I want it to give a source some „other-worldly“ texture or sensation, or if dry would be best...

Each approach seems to work well on its own, and pretty easy to realize.
The struggle begins when I need to reconcile them in a production, make them work side by side, and not to lose track of which is which. At some point the (simulated) realism always seems to clash with the (invented) effect, and the dry sounds seem a little out of place.

I have no recipe or trick as to how to resolve this, but I think the solution would drastically improve my mixes
Here's one I have yet to 'crack.
We do amplified acoustics in the park gigs. Small rig, guitars mando and bass w/pickups into our amps, directs into the board and captured multi-track.

Now my gotcha', on mix down we (I..) can imagine' an audience perspective of the 'stage image and out door space'. But for the life of me I can't get a handle on what ambiance tools convey that.
To follow the logic of 'recreate the space', what is that? Soft defused echos from across the field ? That ain't it.
So, I go with a nice Lexi reverb that sounds nice and doesn't scream "well is it live or isn't?"

A long time ago I heard this delicious 'return off a a grove of red woods.
Tried, and failed to nail that one too.

There are some good Lexicon documents where they address some of this.
It also gives a look into why the I/R's of real spaces might not be the 'Be all end solution.
Page 5-3 here if it's of interest.
https://3e7777c294b9bcaa5486-bc95634...2_original.pdf
Old 1 week ago
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
When I do purely acoustic projects, I mostly just use room mics and skip reverb processors. One thing I like to do is put up a pair of mics and keep them up the whole time, even for overdubs (if the project has overdubs) and place people in in different places in the room. That simulates them all having been there together.
I like it. Don't do it, but I like it
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