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First compressor for Electronics music Dynamics Processors (HW)
Old 1 week ago
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Thread Starter
First compressor for Electronics music

I'm reluctant to start another one of these threads because I've already read a hundred of them, but I think it's time to wade in.

I'm buying my first compressor and I'd like some quick advice from someone who knows about producing/mixing electronic music. Most of these compressor threads tend to focus on acoustic instruments.

As a reference, my gold standard for mixing is Leftfield's Rhythm and Stealth, but I also like the sounds of Underworld, Photek, Daft Punk, Metro Area, etc. Basically electronic music with a good groove and "professionally mastered" sheen, not just glitchy, and aggressive.

I thought I would go with a mono compressor first such as an 1176 (Mohog), Distressor, BAE 10DCF and compressor each drum track independently for character and control, but then I thought that since a lot of my drums are sampled anyway maybe they already have compression on them. Still, it would be nice to have a nice hardware compressor for Moog Bass and synth stabs.

Then I considered stereo bus compressors, like the Urei 1178, API 2500, UBK Fatso, Manley ELOP+ to compress the drums as a group to give them more groove and glue. If I could also use one of these for tracking it would also work on synth bass and the odd synth arpeggio. But I suppose this effect would be somewhat subtle on the bus and might not be worth the cash compared to cheaper plugins.

I like the 1176 sound on acoustic drum kits for how it can make drums snappy and clear while also adding a bit of "push." But would this be noticeable on a drum machine like the 808 or 909? I also hear great things about the API 2500 but I can't discern its character from the samples I've heard online.


TL;DR I want the Leftfield sound on Drums and Synths, what kind of compressor (tracking or stereo bus) and what flavor (API, Neve, UREI) will help me get it?


Last note: I live in Japan so a lot of common gear isn't available (Dramastic Audio, Serpent Audio, Smart Research for example) and most gear is $1000 more expensive than in the States.

Thanks!
Old 1 week ago
  #2
Here for the gear
 

Thread Starter
Here are some examples of the sounds I'm after. Sorry for Youtube quality.

Leftfield is pretty crunchy, but under 100hz sounds solid.

https://youtu.be/4bILMkqskt4?t=18s

These two are smoother but also a sound I really like. Great interaction between kick and bassline on the Underworld track.

https://youtu.be/GbbNxwvguzc?t=14s

I like the thump of the kick drum on the Alan Braxe track. Reverb is probably adding a lot here too. I have a PCM 70 that might get close.

https://youtu.be/k8ab1WnzF6w?t=4m28s
Old 6 days ago
  #3
Gear Head
 

If you're looking for solid, punchy drum compression with a push, you may also want to consider making your drum tracks on something like an older MPC or similar sampler. A lot of those have really distinct and crunchy compression, similar to what I'm hearing from leftfield.
Old 6 days ago
  #4
Lives for gear
The Distressor (EL8) can be used on about anything. I would suggest that as your first once since it sounds like its in budget. It gets you close to 1176 and close to LA2A and does many other things. In general it gives you the rounded sounding smack sound.

The UBK Fatso (EL7) does the other thing, it makes things smooth or removes smack. Having both over time is a common set of compressors for the contrast.

1176KT's are the cheapest useful compressors.
For LA2A look at the Soundscape version.
On the cheap end, GAP has an LA3A clone.

Another compressor with high quality and wide uses is the A designs Nail (Or hammer, one of em is an EQ). Good for both tracking and mixing/buss duties.

At the high end, any MU compressors are very nice to have.

If you want the best, look at any of the retro compressors. Not cheap.
Old 6 days ago
  #5
Here for the gear
 

Thread Starter
Thanks for the replies.

@JohnEdson Thanks for the tip. I actually have an MPC3000 that I love to death. I think a lot of Photek and Underworld drums also come from Akai S series samplers. Such lovely machines. Anyway, the individual drum samples sound amazing, but I think they still need to be glued as a group once in the DAW.

@elegentdrum You're right. The Distressor seems like a no brainer, and I could always add another one for stereo drum bus duty down the line. But (this is going to sound obnoxious) can the Distressor add a class-A sound to the signal? A lot of things I read about Neve and API gear is that even without any gain reduction it can impart some vibe to the signal. I don't know if this is just snake oil, but if not would the Distressor fit the bill?
Old 6 days ago
  #6
Gear Nut
 
Bramley's Avatar
 

MXR 136 Dual Limiter would be worth a look .
Old 6 days ago
  #7
Lives for gear
Buzz Audio Dbc 20
Old 6 days ago
  #8
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JSilver's Avatar
 

Buzz DBC-M is a great compressor!!! I have a unit for sale if it's of any interest
Old 6 days ago
  #9
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Owen L T's Avatar
Spending a large amount of money on an outboard compressor won't get you at all closer to the achieving your goal. It will kill your workflow, and it's clear that it won't do anything you couldn't already do in the box - because, if you were genuinely at the point where your skills were exceeding the limitations of software compressors, then you would already have a very clear idea of what sound, specifically, you are needing from an outboard box that you can't get in your DAW, and you wouldn't be looking at wildly different bits of gear through which to run your 808 samples, hoping that this might add some extra mojo to your mixes.

A quick for instance: you produce electronic music. You're not recording a live drum kit, but are using samples. Every hit is controlled to within an inch of its life; so an outboard drum buss compressor becomes ... a total waste of money. It won't glue them together (no better than any number of much cheaper plug-in options - which, you've already pointed out yourself) and it absolutely will not, will not, WILL not give your drums "more groove". Good programming will. Good sound selection will. Live percussion might. An outboard box will not! There's literally nothing this approach would add to your mix that a similar ITB compressor won't already do - without the need for real-time bounces every time you make a change.

Don't waste your time, or money on this wild goose chase.
Old 6 days ago
  #10
Lives for gear
Kind of on the same track as Owen... While I have used (and spent liberally on) hardware compression, I have found that the quality of ITB compression has gradually improved to the point that I’ve sold off all but a few of my hardware compressors. I have the Slate bundle, so I’ll use it as an example. Slate added a Distressor model recently that will do just about anything I have ever thought to ask a compressor to do. That is not exaggeration or hyperbole.

To answer a specific question you’ve asked, it does not simply make things sound better by running through it without compression.

I have three stereo compressors that seem to do versions of that “sound better” thing but that comes with baggage.
First, none of the three has the flexibility and dail-it-in effectiveness of the Slate Distressor, so that sonic “magic” doesn’t often come in the same box as the compressor you want on that track, if you want compression.
It is an interruption of flow to patch them in.
It requires extra DA/AD conversion in a mix situation.
They are (particularly the Manley Vari-Mu) fussy about getting levels in their sweet spot to deliver that bit of magic.
They can add noise that a plug doesn’t add.

So, I have four interesting and somewhat expensive stereo compressors that I use separately or in combinations for analog mastering, but they are getting almost zero current use for tracking, and only selective use on mix buss.
Old 5 days ago
  #11
References you mention (Leftfield, Daft Punk, Underworld, Photek, etc) relays their imprint on carefully selected samples and synth patches, not on specific compressor. Also on track arrangement.

Work on this until your music sounds great. Then and only then rent a high end stereo compressor for a weekend, run your mixes through it and see if it goes from great to awesome.
Old 5 days ago
  #12
If you want to hear the compression then go for an opto . My two favorite opto comps are Buzz SOC and Sebatron SMAC .
Old 5 days ago
  #13
+4 for Buzz Audio!
Everything Tim makes is rock solid and versatile. SOC 20 would be my first choice if in budget. DBC20 is quite nice too. Also a fav of mine, the Chandler Zener will brings things forward with a lot of color.
Old 5 days ago
  #14
Gear Addict
 
midmost's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twenty Staxx View Post
Buzz Audio Dbc 20
this !


----- end of the thread -----
Old 5 days ago
  #15
Hi,
Thought I would chime in here.
The Daft Punk release(s) "Random Access Memories" was mastered on the FCS P3S ME. All release formats used the P3S ME on the final masters.

It is pretty clean, but we also make some "color" compressors like the P3EX and P3EXM The Monster.

Best regards,
Roger
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First compressor for Electronics music-antoine_chabert_p3sme_03.png  
Old 4 days ago
  #16
Gear Addict
 
midmost's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen L T View Post
Spending a large amount of money on an outboard compressor won't get you at all closer to the achieving your goal. It will kill your workflow, and it's clear that it won't do anything you couldn't already do in the box - because, if you were genuinely at the point where your skills were exceeding the limitations of software compressors, then you would already have a very clear idea of what sound, specifically, you are needing from an outboard box that you can't get in your DAW, and you wouldn't be looking at wildly different bits of gear through which to run your 808 samples, hoping that this might add some extra mojo to your mixes.

A quick for instance: you produce electronic music. You're not recording a live drum kit, but are using samples. Every hit is controlled to within an inch of its life; so an outboard drum buss compressor becomes ... a total waste of money. It won't glue them together (no better than any number of much cheaper plug-in options - which, you've already pointed out yourself) and it absolutely will not, will not, WILL not give your drums "more groove". Good programming will. Good sound selection will. Live percussion might. An outboard box will not! There's literally nothing this approach would add to your mix that a similar ITB compressor won't already do - without the need for real-time bounces every time you make a change.

Don't waste your time, or money on this wild goose chase.
THIS, ladies and gentleman, can be considered as prolly the best GS post in history.
Old 4 days ago
  #17
Quote:
WILL not give your drums "more groove"
Uh, OK...
A lot of what is described as groove on drum tracks is when the compressor modulates ambiance... Hardware can most certainly do that!

Dry tracks not so much.

But hey, if Owen L T is right, my work is done here! Time to retire I guess...
Old 4 days ago
  #18
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Owen L T's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerFoote View Post
Uh, OK...
A lot of what is described as groove on drum tracks is when the compressor modulates ambiance... Hardware can most certainly do that!

Dry tracks not so much.

But hey, if Owen L T is right, my work is done here! Time to retire I guess...
And if the OP had been talking about tracking live bands with live drums, then sure. But he wasn't; he was talking about electronic music, with programmed drums - hence why I also specifically mentioned (i) good programming; (ii) good sound selection; and (iii) live percussion as all being things that can improve the groove in his productions.

That is not the same as saying there is no longer a market for hardware compressors - yours or anyone else's.

But the context of the OP's question was programmed drums; which is why I also specifically mentioned that on programmed, sampled drum tracks, the individual hits are all - usually - very tightly controlled; each envelope, each velocity, each everything. Which is yet another reason why, in this case, buss compression on the drums (whether ITB or not) isn't going to improve the OP's groove, or get him the drum sound of the tracks he mentioned. Buying an outboard compressor will NOT get him the drum sound of his favourite bands; learning to select appropriate samples, learning to program well, learning how to use compression and EQ - those actually might.

Selectively picking seven words from my response about which to write "uh, ok ...", while entirely ignoring a great deal of relevant context? Not entirely cool.
Old 4 days ago
  #19
Quote:
And if the OP had been talking about tracking live bands with live drums, then sure. But he wasn't; he was talking about electronic music, with programmed drums
Sorry, I was also taking about electronic drums.
You don't do electronic music?

I do and have since the late 1960s.

I use digital reverbs and delays for ambience.
What I said still applies, even more so than acoustic recording as you can get the drum track wetter than you would with room mics and modulate that sub-mix.


Quote:
Selectively picking seven words from my response about which to write "uh, ok ...", while entirely ignoring a great deal of relevant context? Not entirely cool.
Didn't know that's a problem, sorry... And I just picked your words that applied, as most of what you said does not IMO.

Anyway, you can really pump digital drums with a bus compressor as long as they are provided with ambience.

Peace!
Roger
Old 4 days ago
  #20
Lives for gear
Hmm.. a compressor designer/manufacturer has a strong opinion in favor of using compressors on specific sources... I respect that, but I’m not feeling the earth move even a bit. These aren’t surprising statements. I’m a little disappointed to see a snarky tone to the remarks that doesn’t seem warranted by Owen’s posts.
Old 3 days ago
  #21
Snarky posts not intended.
I was responding to sweeping comments:

Like this:
Quote:
because, if you were genuinely at the point where your skills were exceeding the limitations of software compressors, then you would already have a very clear idea of what sound, specifically, you are needing from an outboard box that you can't get in your DAW, and you wouldn't be looking at wildly different bits of gear through which to run your 808 samples, hoping that this might add some extra mojo to your mixes.
That sounds pretty darn condescending to me
I went through plug ins, they sucked for what I wanted to do.
And no I am not posting to drive hardware sales.

I just think that Owen LT obviously doesn't know what many that are doing electronic music are doing for mix bus treatment.

Like you can't groove drums unless they are recorded acoustically, that's just wrong.
And that alone was the crux of the apostrophe that I was taking to task here.

Anyway, over and out.
Old 3 days ago
  #22
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Owen L T's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerFoote View Post
Snarky posts not intended.
I was responding to sweeping comments:

Like this:

"because, if you were genuinely at the point where your skills were exceeding the limitations of software compressors, then you would already have a very clear idea of what sound, specifically, you are needing from an outboard box that you can't get in your DAW, and you wouldn't be looking at wildly different bits of gear through which to run your 808 samples, hoping that this might add some extra mojo to your mixes."

That sounds pretty darn condescending to me
Hey, wow, it's cool that you continue to post on here, and have now taken to attacking me for being "condescending" as well - in response to another poster (not me) suggesting that maybe you shouldn't make snarky comments in my direction. That's super helpful, and is going to be great for your brand!

The excerpt you quoted this time may have been frank, but it wasn't condescending; just a bit of truth. When a poster is hoping that an outboard compressor will bring some extra magic to their tracks - maybe their drums, maybe their synth arpeggio, maybe an API, but they don't know because they've never heard one, and maybe on their drum samples, but maybe not because their drum samples might already be compressed, they're not sure - then they're not, yet, at the point where they've understood and exhausted their ITB options. That much is clear - which makes my comment hardly "sweeping", but specific and fairly well reasoned.

Was I being blunt? Sure. But I'm a regular enough contributor here to recognise - I believe - when someone might genuinely benefit from buying [insert gear here] and when they might benefit from a stern talking to! As a side note, I clearly read the original post, listened to the sound of the tracks listed, and made some recommendations. You ... so far have directed the majority of your remarks at disparaging me rather than using your 50+ years of experience to help out the OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerFoote View Post
I just think that Owen LT obviously doesn't know what many that are doing electronic music are doing for mix bus treatment.
I haven't said one thing about what people are and aren't doing on their mix bus, so you've pulled "Owen L T obviously doesn't know" out of thin air. I did make some observations about the importance of drum buss compression on sampled drums relative to acoustic drums, and in reference to the audible difference - in that context - between hardware and software, and whether it might be sensible first to ascertain where/how one feels the software isn't getting the job done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerFoote View Post
Like you can't groove drums unless they are recorded acoustically, that's just wrong.
And that alone was the crux of the apostrophe that I was taking to task here.

Anyway, over and out.
Again with the gross misrepresentation of what I actually said.

I did not say "you can't groove drums unless they are recorded acoustically". I didn't even, really, say something close to that. I DID say that drum buss compression, and using a compressor for "glue" on the drum buss, is generally more of a feature with a live drummer on a live kit - for all the obvious reasons. I also said that an outboard compressor will not give programmed drums "more groove" than a suitable plug-in. In the context of someone asking the sorts of questions the OP asked, that's 99% accurate; until he's figured out what an 1176 does or can do to an 808, a box is not the answer.

Not only that, but the OP included a couple of reference tracks for the drum sound he was hoping to achieve. But it's abundantly clear that the crux of those sounds isn't "what hardware compressors might they have been using", but all the other things I listed. And no, that is NOT saying "the choice of compressor makes no difference". Just that it's not the answer to this particular question.

Finally, and back to my original point, the OP's question would have been entirely different if he already had a work-flow regarding, say, his drum buss, had experimented with stock compressors, a couple emulations, knows that he typically saturates his 909 kicks with [x], likes some slow compression on the rest of his loops, but has found them wanting for [x] or [y] reason.

But what he put was:

"I want the Leftfield sound on Drums and Synths, what kind of compressor (tracking or stereo bus) and what flavor (API, Neve, UREI) will help me get it?"

The only let's-keep-it-real answer to that question is: "no outboard compressor will get you materially closer to that sound. A better understanding of sound/sample selection, EQ, and various ITB compressors and compression techniques in the second instance will."

Need further evidence? 'I like the 1176 sound on acoustic drum kits for how it can make drums snappy and clear while also adding a bit of "push." But would this be noticeable on a drum machine like the 808 or 909?'

The answer to that is: try an 1176 plug-in! Try it on the 808s, try it on the 909s! Try a lot - try a little. You try that stuff out, you don't ask on a forum whether it would be noticeable. You try it, and see if you notice it. And, no, I'm not saying 1176 plug-ins are sonically identical to hardware; but that they give one a pretty good idea of what they can do, how they sound when driven, whether it's the kind of vibe one is after - and then, and only then, does one start thinking about whether it's worth spending 10 time that amount on a box that might get you the remaining 10% of the way there. But until the OP has gone through that process, buying hardware is just throwing money at a problem, rather than actually solving it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerFoote View Post
A lot of what is described as groove on drum tracks is when the compressor modulates ambiance... Hardware can most certainly do that!
Hand on heart time: how much of the sound - and groove - of the three links posted by the OP can be attributed to the use of a specific, hardware, compressor to "modulate the ambience"?

The answer to that is: "next to none"; we all know it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerFoote View Post
I went through plug ins, they sucked for what I wanted to do.
And no I am not posting to drive hardware sales.
It's 2018, not 1998; decent plug-in compressors (of which there are plenty) don't "suck" at anything anymore - that kind of statement is well past its sell-by date.

Rather than making not one, but two snarky replies to my replies, you could so easily have said: "here's what I do with hardware drum buss compression, and why I found it was helpful, particularly in relation to [things relevant to the OP's post]". THAT's the kind of thing that actually helps people out. (I'm guessing it's also the kind of thing that's more likely to sell gear than saying "[x poster] obviously doesn't know [y]", but on that I defer to you.)
Old 3 days ago
  #23
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerFoote View Post
Snarky posts not intended.
I was responding to sweeping comments:

That sounds pretty darn condescending to me
The comments you were responding to were not directed to you, since you weren’t in the thread yet.

If the remarks were directed at you, I would understand you feeling disrespected.

Maybe you disagree with this thought, but I don’t think we are all equal here. I would argue compressor applications with the OP all day. If I had the same interchange with you, I would shut up and encourage you to speak.
Old 3 days ago
  #24
Ive not yet heard any plugin that can match the impact and tight low end of a hardware compressor at the same peak level including the recent Distressor plugins. Yes they sound 'close'...but for electronic music, a light punchy low end is important especially to people who like music like the stuff posted...

I think the distressor is on the money in terms of choice because it has the ultimate shaping choice and gut-punch, and I personally wouldnt worry about the 'Class A' of it...but if the OP did want something a bit more expensive could consider one of the Chandler Germanium, a stereo Compex, Kush Tweaker, FATSO, Overstayer compressor...Roger Footes nice option above...lots of lovely choice in the hardware world
Old 3 days ago
  #25
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Owen L T's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by midmost View Post
THIS, ladies and gentleman, can be considered as prolly the best GS post in history.
Either that or "sweeping" and "condescending"; YMMV!
Old 3 days ago
  #26
I thought your words were sweeping and a little condescending, that's OK.
It's an opinion.
However, I assure you I never meant any dis-respect.
Old 3 days ago
  #27
Gear Head
Hello even army,
I do all my drum programming through logic, and I can clearly hear the magic that an outboard compressor does to programmed drum sounds. I have a long list of compressors in my arsenal but the ones I usually prefer for drums are: Overstayer stereo field effect compressor (Stereo Field Effect — OVERSTAYER Recording Equipment, Inc.), the Elysia mpresser (2 500 series units), the RNLA 500 series pair, Daking FET II pair, and sometimes the T culture vulture for small amounts of distortion. Any of these will work wonders and bring to life your drum sounds. In fact, if I am not mistaken, the Elysia mpresser 500 comp is pretty popular amongst electronic music people for drum work. I also have several of the usual plugins (UAD, WAVES, Soundtoys, etc) - but nothing comes close to what a hardware does. Try the Overstayer - you will not look back again. There will be plenty here on GS who will support this statement. Good luck and have fun!
Old 3 days ago
  #28
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manicearthling View Post
Hello even army,
I do all my drum programming through logic, and I can clearly hear the magic that an outboard compressor does to programmed drum sounds. I have a long list of compressors in my arsenal but the ones I usually prefer for drums are: Overstayer stereo field effect compressor (Stereo Field Effect — OVERSTAYER Recording Equipment, Inc.), the Elysia mpresser (2 500 series units), the RNLA 500 series pair, Daking FET II pair, and sometimes the T culture vulture for small amounts of distortion. Any of these will work wonders and bring to life your drum sounds. In fact, if I am not mistaken, the Elysia mpresser 500 comp is pretty popular amongst electronic music people for drum work. I also have several of the usual plugins (UAD, WAVES, Soundtoys, etc) - but nothing comes close to what a hardware does. Try the Overstayer - you will not look back again. There will be plenty here on GS who will support this statement. Good luck and have fun!
Mien Gott! That is a fortune in high end analog compression (said the jealous guy).
Old 3 days ago
  #29
Gear Head
"Mien Gott! That is a fortune in high end analog compression (said the jealous guy)."

Ha ha...I am a real slutty gearslut!
Old 3 days ago
  #30
Here's my take:
1- Computers and plug ins destroy my workflow It was so much better with an HD24 and console with one, maybe two good compressors, digital reverb etc..

2- Despite what was said (not by me):
Bushman
Hmm.. a compressor designer/manufacturer has a strong opinion in favor of using compressors on specific sources...

I do not ever use compression on my drum tracks... Ever.
But I know that what some said was just wrong.

You most certainly can make a digital drum track groove with a good hardware compressor, which ALWAYS sounds better than the best plug ins.

3- I was responding to the general jerk attitude:
Quote:
so an outboard drum buss compressor becomes ... a total waste of money
If you don't want responses to the contrary, don't say things like this...
That is BS, with all due respect

Or another Jerk attitude:
Quote:
Hmm.. a compressor designer/manufacturer has a strong opinion in favor of using compressors on specific sources..
And you guys call me snarky?
You two are maybe the most condescending posters I have read here, and I am a contributor.

It's 2018, not 1998; decent plug-in compressors (of which there are plenty) don't "suck" at anything anymore - that kind of statement is well past its sell-by date.


When did you find out that I o0nly have plug ins from 1998???

You sir are full of yourself, Owen.

If you don't like me, too frikkin bad, but try to be civil, keep it zipp[ed up please.

Sheesh

One other thing... How many plug in compressors and EQs does it take to make a mix sound decent, when one compressor and an EQ if you don't mind the downsides...

One on every track?
So, yes all hardware is totally superior to plugs.

I tried to apologize, but no response from the two that were so concerned about my posts being abusive.

You are most likely a shill with ties to some DSP cubicle farm, trying to destroy a vital market, of course I don't know you two from Adam.
Should I? What exactly makes your opinion undisputed???

And for the record, I stopped using plug ins in 2017, so you can take your ASSumption:

It's 2018, not 1998; decent plug-in compressors (of which there are plenty) don't "suck" at anything anymore - that kind of statement is well past its sell-by date.


Put it where it belongs pal!
Btw, I have 3 full Mac DAW systems all with a full complement of Waves, Altiverb, Realverb, L1/L2, AudioEase bundles.
They don't come close to a rack full of nice warm audio hardware, and they never will as consumer PC OSs are not improving... I mean Wndows? Unix from the 1980s? Give me a break.

I worked in Unix in the 80s, it was good to bury that ancient POS software, and that was pro stuff not the consumer PCs music studios use. I doubt they would spend $10,000 on a mission critical failover PC for a studio like I deployed to govt agencies that needed to connect to NOAA, USBR, California DWR or the US Canal Authority.

I know you two like to gang up on posters you don't like, but don't bother with it in my case, I have work to do, and no appetite for a typical GS jerk contest...
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