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Does analog gear really sound "better", or is it just a learned response?
Old 1 week ago
  #6241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
No, tune to A 300Hz. Everything is just too damn high pitched.
That's roughly a transposition downward of a perfect fourth. Manageable.
Old 1 week ago
  #6242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelvetone View Post
That's roughly a transposition downward of a perfect fourth. Manageable.
And it puts all of John Denver's songs in my vocal range!
Old 1 week ago
  #6243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
And it puts all of John Denver's songs in my vocal range!
It might allow for Rick Astley to do a credible cover version of Sunshine on my Shoulder.
Old 1 week ago
  #6244
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And "Rocky Mountain Low".
Chris
Old 1 week ago
  #6245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
No, tune to A 300Hz. Everything is just too damn high pitched.
And that folks is how Geddy Lee, will record his Barry White Tribute Album.
But it could still be... "Not enough".
Chris
Old 1 week ago
  #6246
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vernier's Avatar
Loved this studio, besides 1176 they had a LA2.

Old 1 week ago
  #6247
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Ok, so what's your point?
my point is the wrecking crew are not the standard by which modern musicians are measured. They were pretty average musicians technically


Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Just that 70s studio men had better chops than 60s studio men? I guess so, yeah, that seems to be true . . . and maybe some of the cats in the 2010s have even better chops.

Water flowing underground.
70s guys didn't necessarily have better chops they just were more musically interesting and innovative.

I would say pretty much any musician in any of the BIG 60s bands were all better than wrecking crew. Entwistle, MCCartney, Chris Squire, JPJ. Wyman, Jack Bruce were all way better bass players than Carol Kaye. Bonzo, Mitch Mitchell, Keith Moon, Bruford, Appice were all much much better drummers than Hal Blaine.

I won't even mention guitar players, since pretty much any guitar player in any of the big 60s bands were light years beyond anyone in the wrecking Crew. I would even say Kieth Richards and George Harrison were better. Everyone always spouts that the wrecking crew played on 100s of big 60s hit songs, well so did Keith and George and Jimmy Page for that matter.

WC were way overrated. They were good but not that good. 70s players were lightyears beyond them. Modern players are eons better.
Old 1 week ago
  #6248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
my point is the wrecking crew are not the standard by which modern musicians are measured.
Who's making that claim on this thread? Why is that such a concern to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
They were pretty average musicians technically
Actually, technically, they weren't - they were often replacing average musicians because they were ringers.

In the case of Carol Kaye, she's a landmark electric bassist, possibly the most recorded bass player in recording history. The fact of the matter is, when Carol took it up in the late 50s, the electric bass guitar was a very new instrument, really the first person to play it as a main instrument was Monk Montgomery in the mid 50s. She quickly became one of the main forces instrumental in defining what a bass does in many settings. To boot, she wrote books on playing the electric bass, when there really were none, and part of the regimen was to develop technique.

I don't think that's average in any conceivable way.
Old 1 week ago
  #6249
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FWIW I'm glad I told a Lady at a local Club, that Hal Blaine is my favorite drummer of all time... Shortly after he passed away.
It turned out she was his niece!! (true story)

Chris, as you may guess... We have a major difference of opinion, not just about Blaine.

Many of those you mention are "Musical Geniuses" But chops-wise many of the Session Musicians would leave them way back, in the dust.
Let alone the Classical/Jazz players. Ever see/hear Eldar? Guy's a monster on piano!

Like comparing a scrawny underfed alley cat, to a full grown Tiger. (well maybe a slight exaggeration)
Chris
P.S. Who's "eons better"? We want names!
Old 1 week ago
  #6250
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clump's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post

I would say pretty much any musician in any of the BIG 60s bands were all better than wrecking crew. Entwistle, MCCartney, Chris Squire, JPJ. Wyman, Jack Bruce were all way better bass players than Carol Kaye. Bonzo, Mitch Mitchell, Keith Moon, Bruford, Appice were all much much better drummers than Hal Blaine.
So here we have a sweeping generalisation followed up with subjective opinion masquerading as fact.

There is no "better" in art, it amazes me that people just don't grasp this...everybody of course has their preferences, the key word is SUBJECTIVITY.
Old 1 week ago
  #6251
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retractablezing's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandoBastardo View Post
Reminds me of the Lenard Cohen radio interview I heard when he recalled his first meeting with Bob Dylan.

Cohen, who admitted it could take years of painstaking effort to finish a song - asked Bob if it took a long time to write Maggie's Farm. Bob said yes, took longer than normal, about 20 minutes.

Cohen said, in that instant he hated Dylan. Lol!
To be fair, though, and i'm not saying this is the case for every song of his, but you have to know what he means when he says something like that, or at least what his process is. With Dylan, nothing is ever as it seems.

With Maggie's Farm, it's twofold. It's derived from a 1920's song called "Down on Penny's Farm" by the Bently Boys, actually recorded for Columbia by that group in 1929. The melody and general lyrics of "Down on Penny's Farm" were adapted a couple of years before by Dylan into a song called "Hard Times in New York Town". From there, he kept on dissecting the song, specifically its concept, and got to Maggie's Farm.

This process is deeply rooted in the usual (at the time) method of taking a known folk song from cannon, keeping or slightly altering the melody, changing the lyrics to better suit the times or a given topic or context, and voila, you have a "new song". With Maggie's Farm he adopted some lyrics and the concept of Down on Penny's Farm after having used it before on Hard Times in New York Town.

And also, when he says it took him 20 minutes, he's not talking about Michael Bloomfield lead guitar arrangement, Jerome Arnold's bass, Sam Lay drumming, or Al Kooper's keys. He's talking about changing up the lyrics and playing E-C-B on his guitar. To Cohen, that's Maggie's Farm, the fully fledged version of the song with the full band arrangement. And Dylan was probably happy to let him think that. But it's hardly reality.

As it's clear by his statements in Chronicles, to Dylan, a "song" is usually a bunch of lyrics on a piece of paper, not even a melody or a basic chord structure. That's what he calls a "song". This practice peaked on his late 90s, early '00s work, where he simply took those "songs" to the studio and his band came up with the arrangements, etc. He wasn't even playing guitar at the time.

This to say that Leonard might have been impressed, but he probably had no concept of what Dylan meant by that, and it's pretty likely Dylan had no interest in making his methods clear, even though he was hardly the only one doing this type of thing. To be clear, i've studied Dylan for years and am a great admirer of the man, but i think there's value in real understanding instead of feeding the myths surrounding him.

Last edited by retractablezing; 1 week ago at 02:37 PM..
Old 1 week ago
  #6252
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nat8808 View Post
Strap in first!

Is there something innately special about a round number like 300, or is it a learned response? Why not have page 209 as a milestone?

. . .
No. Round numbers have a rounder, more natural sound that is less fatiguing, and that people inherently respond to.
Old 1 week ago
  #6253
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
my point is the wrecking crew are not the standard by which modern musicians are measured. They were pretty average musicians technically




70s guys didn't necessarily have better chops they just were more musically interesting and innovative.

I would say pretty much any musician in any of the BIG 60s bands were all better than wrecking crew. Entwistle, MCCartney, Chris Squire, JPJ. Wyman, Jack Bruce were all way better bass players than Carol Kaye. Bonzo, Mitch Mitchell, Keith Moon, Bruford, Appice were all much much better drummers than Hal Blaine.

I won't even mention guitar players, since pretty much any guitar player in any of the big 60s bands were light years beyond anyone in the wrecking Crew. I would even say Kieth Richards and George Harrison were better. Everyone always spouts that the wrecking crew played on 100s of big 60s hit songs, well so did Keith and George and Jimmy Page for that matter.

WC were way overrated. They were good but not that good. 70s players were lightyears beyond them. Modern players are eons better.
True - if you consider 70s rock and blues-based guitar antics to be the height of musical evolution. . . . .
Old 1 week ago
  #6254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
True - if you consider 70s rock and blues-based guitar antics to be the height of musical evolution. . . . .
It was the height of the teenage bedroom poster revolution...
Old 1 week ago
  #6255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retractablezing View Post
This to say that Leonard might have been impressed, but he probably had no concept of what Dylan meant by that,
I wouldn't assume he was impressed. My instinctive reaction to the story was he was distinctly unimpressed.
Old 1 week ago
  #6256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DistortingJack View Post
. , further reinforcing my point about what elements of musicianship have value to different age groups
That's confirmation bias. What evidence is there that the difference in opinion has to do with age? I bet contemporaries all had wildly differing view on all aspects of musicianship.
Old 1 week ago
  #6257
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
my point is the wrecking crew are not the standard by which modern musicians are measured. They were pretty average musicians technically




70s guys didn't necessarily have better chops they just were more musically interesting and innovative.

I would say pretty much any musician in any of the BIG 60s bands were all better than wrecking crew. Entwistle, MCCartney, Chris Squire, JPJ. Wyman, Jack Bruce were all way better bass players than Carol Kaye. Bonzo, Mitch Mitchell, Keith Moon, Bruford, Appice were all much much better drummers than Hal Blaine.

I won't even mention guitar players, since pretty much any guitar player in any of the big 60s bands were light years beyond anyone in the wrecking Crew. I would even say Kieth Richards and George Harrison were better. Everyone always spouts that the wrecking crew played on 100s of big 60s hit songs, well so did Keith and George and Jimmy Page for that matter.

WC were way overrated. They were good but not that good. 70s players were lightyears beyond them. Modern players are eons better.
Your view is quite narrow, the wrecking crew members were sight reading complex film scores and tv background recording dates for lunch, and then doing pop music sessions as a snack.

Page started his career as a session player (early 60s), but the others you mentioned were gigging musicians, mostly rock and blues players, and certainly couldn’t match any wrecking crew player on a three hour, film score date, nor were they expected to.
Old 1 week ago
  #6258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
Your view is quite narrow, the wrecking crew members were sight reading complex film scores and tv background recording dates for lunch, and then doing pop music sessions as a snack.

Page started his career as a session player (early 60s), but the others you mentioned were gigging musicians, mostly rock and blues players, and certainly couldn’t match any wrecking crew player on a three hour, film score date, nor were they expected to.
The Wrecking Crew essentially was a collective of first call session players. Either in LA or NYC, such musicians; they're going to be the best of the best musicians, all with the best musicianship skills and technical abilities. And you're not going to get a better set of sight readers.
Old 1 week ago
  #6259
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
Y

Page started his career as a session player (early 60s), but the others you mentioned were gigging musicians, mostly rock and blues players, .
Page has been upfront about a couple of interestin things.

1. He became a session player because he was quite sickly as a youth, and he wanted to avoid touring and playing gigs because he usually fell sick after a few days on the road;

2. He got a lot of work at that time because he was one of the few UK session guitarists who understood the "new" rock style of playing. As he put it, 90% of the session guys were still playing hollow bodied instruments with heavy gauge strings, clean amps, and no bends.

He and Jim Sullivan worked a lot as a team, and would divide up the duties. If it was a more traditional session, Sullivan would pay the top part and Page would play rhythm. if it was more modern, they would reverse the roles
Old 1 week ago
  #6260
It strikes me that some folks may not think of the Wrecking Crew and other studio stalwarts as 'standout' players because, of course, they weren't paid to be showoffs -- they were working to sell the project, not themselves.
Old 1 week ago
  #6261
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by twelvetone View Post
The Wrecking Crew essentially was a collective of first call session players. Either in LA or NYC, such musicians; they're going to be the best of the best musicians, all with the best musicianship skills and technical abilities. And you're not going to get a better set of sight readers.
I think my bass teacher explained it well:

If you had to put together a band do to a weekend at the casino playing blues and classic rock, with only one rehearsal, There are probably fifty bassists in the area that could do that job. I'd probably be number 48 on the call list.

If a Broadway performer comes through town doing one night at the preforming arts center; they use a 15 piece band, but only bring three musicians with them; there is only time for one rehearsal on the afternoon of the show; the bassist has to both sightread and be able to improvise over charts, and they need someone that can play upright and electric, maybe 47 of those 50 can't do the job, and I'm often #1 on the call list.

There are different levels of musicianship. Never confuse someone who is a "professional" because they play in a famous band with someone who plays "on call." The latter have to be so much more skilled.

He's retired now, but the last show his did was a touring production of "wicked"

"hey needed someone who can read, and play plucked and bowed upright, electric bass in a pop/rock style, and fretless electric. I think I was the only guy on the on-call list who could do all of that."
Old 1 week ago
  #6262
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Old 1 week ago
  #6263
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
where do you get the assurance that the "top 5" orchestras are not also "sanitized for repeated consumption"?




I agree it would be "interesting".

But if I hear a song on the radio and I enjoy that song, it would never occur to me that I should not enjoy it simply because the artist 'constructed' the music instead of 'performed' it.

People like us are the ones responsible for the "studio-as-instrument" concept.
I was rather expecting that the top 5 do as well. If the thing is to make it perfect, or closer to perfect after the fact, I wouldn't doubt for a minute that it goes on at the highest level. At some point they all have to compete with the first one to *cheat. I have really not done much listening to the music of my former trade for a long, long time. For personal reasons mostly. When I do it's often a YT video of concert, or a recording done back in the 60's or 70's. I'm sure there were ways to clean things up back then as well. So sure, it files under, "what I don't know won't hurt me." But it would probably also come as a disappointment to know how much was done. Not removing coughs and chair squeaks mind you, but manipulating the performance.

Back to Glenn Gould. I used to listen to an LP my mother had of his Brahms Intermezzos. They seemed very careful, studied. It was years later when I learned of his M.O. and I thought well - no wonder. And the words "Performed By" get diluted. With one a two notes at a time being recorded, they're obliterated...it seems to me. Maybe "Piano Sounds Triggered By" would be more fitting. For a world class pianist to be relegated to that is preposterous and absurd, IMO. It's an absurdity that goes far beyond "Kung Fu piano on a mountain top".

Classical music has a long history of it being about the artist almost as much as the art... the human endeavor, as was mentioned earlier by clump, matters too. In some cases, it's the sheer power of the endeavor that matters most. No actual mountain tops were involved I'd wager, but many were summited in spirit. Paganini did a fair sized chunk of the climb from a prison cell with a violin with no E string. It's what people can do that's really impressive, for me. What machines can now make it seem like people can do, or a premeditated and contrived recording, not so much. But I grant, 'what nobody knows... and a trip to the bank, however hollow...'


I wonder how many DVD productions of "Swan Lake, or "The Nutcracker" were green screened with everyone perfectly in sync with the orchestra, a momentary knee wobble fixed, pirouettes tightened, leaps made higher, and how that would fly if it were known?

Not often a conspiracy guy, but I do have a suspicious nature I suppose. How often do budgets suddenly shrink not long after a new shortcut arrives as the production side of the glass gets ever more fingers in the pie and creates a new, higher bar that they control?



What bothers me most I suppose is what seems to me to be a trend towards treating the artist as a blunt tool, as well as an artificially created level of 'perfection' that allows a regional orchestra for instance to achieve, with some help, that which rivals their betters even as it renders them somewhat indistinguishable. Nearly as good/just as good as is one thing. Can't tell the difference is another. Those that obtained our CD can go ahead and be impressed with their local orchestra, and how good we probably aren't. I'd be considerably more flattered when complimented on it if an unaltered recording of ours had been weighed against the same from oh, say NY, and the comment we received back was the same.

Someone around here said recently, "With classical music, it's all about the performance."

Well, it used to be.

Last edited by GearFiddler; 1 week ago at 10:45 PM..
Old 1 week ago
  #6264
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drcmusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
I think my bass teacher explained it well:

If you had to put together a band do to a weekend at the casino playing blues and classic rock, with only one rehearsal, There are probably fifty bassists in the area that could do that job. I'd probably be number 48 on the call list.

If a Broadway performer comes through town doing one night at the preforming arts center; they use a 15 piece band, but only bring three musicians with them; there is only time for one rehearsal on the afternoon of the show; the bassist has to both sightread and be able to improvise over charts, and they need someone that can play upright and electric, maybe 47 of those 50 can't do the job, and I'm often #1 on the call list.

There are different levels of musicianship. Never confuse someone who is a "professional" because they play in a famous band with someone who plays "on call." The latter have to be so much more skilled.

He's retired now, but the last show his did was a touring production of "wicked"

"hey needed someone who can read, and play plucked and bowed upright, electric bass in a pop/rock style, and fretless electric. I think I was the only guy on the on-call list who could do all of that."
Um.....congratulations?
Jesus how inane.
Old 1 week ago
  #6265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GearFiddler View Post
Back to Glenn Gould. I used to listen to an LP my mother had of his Brahms Intermezzos. They seemed very careful, studied. It was years later when I learned of his M.O. and I thought well - no wonder. And the words "Performed By" get diluted. With one a two notes at a time being recorded, they're obliterated...it seems to me. Maybe "Piano Sounds Triggered By" would be more fitting. For a world class pianist to be relegated to that is preposterous and absurd, IMO. It's an absurdity that goes far beyond "Kung Fu piano on a mountain top".
First, there's no question Gould could perform any piece without the aid of editing/splicing. There's enough footage of his genius that would would make anyone think that.

As I said in a previous post, in some circles there was a view that a recording was a presentation of the composition, and myriad recording techniques to enhance its presentation were not necessarily an ethical breach, and a separate entity from a live performance...obviously there are die hards who might disagree, but Gould wasn't one of them. One mustn't forget he retired from live performance at a very early age (31), and he's always had a fraught relationship/experience with a live audience. He was indeed a strange bird in many many ways, as was he a savant/genius in many disciplines as well.

Quote:
Gould was one of the first truly modern classical performers, for whom recording and broadcasting were not adjuncts to the concert hall but separate art forms that represented the future of music. He made scores of albums, steadily expanding his repertoire and developing a professional engineer’s command of recording techniques.

https://www.sonyclassical.com/artist.../glenn-gould-2
Glenn Gould, in terms of innovation and experimentation, in a way was the Les Paul of Classical music.
Old 1 week ago
  #6266
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robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drcmusic View Post
Um.....congratulations?
Jesus how inane.
You like to drop these little quips . . . can you maybe give some more detail as to why you say "Jesus how inane"?
Old 1 week ago
  #6267
Quote:
Originally Posted by vernier View Post
If you're gonna do GUI... I say... do GUI.

I'm so out of the acquisitions loop that I don't even know if that is a real UI (I have seen it before). But, whatever, I have to hand it to the graphic artist.
Old 1 week ago
  #6268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drcmusic View Post
Um.....congratulations?
Jesus how inane.
Yes! Congratulations.

God, how insensitive of you.

Norfolk Martin tells a story of something that was an important part of his life and you get rude. This thread in a nutshell.
Old 1 week ago
  #6269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
If you're gonna do GUI... I say... do GUI.

I'm so out of the acquisitions loop that I don't even know if that is a real UI (I have seen it before). But, whatever, I have to hand it to the graphic artist.
Jesus, it's garish AF.

BTW, it's from the same company that introduced the "OneKnob Series."
Old 1 week ago
  #6270
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drcmusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo4u View Post
Yes! Congratulations.

God, how insensitive of you.

Norfolk Martin tells a story of something that was an important part of his life and you get rude. This thread in a nutshell.
I'm sure he's tough enough. Just seemed rather myopic.
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