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Recording a jazz quartet - Mics Condenser Microphones
Old 20th May 2018
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sp12Jazz View Post
only the piano player having to rely on headphones/no sight.
you can solve the "no sight" problem by picking up a couple of those cheap cameras that are used for surveillance or "baby monitoring". together with a couple of computer monitors (maybe borrowed?) you can give both the piano player and the rest of the group a view of each other. I've done this with success a number of times.
Old 20th May 2018
  #32
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildplum View Post
you can solve the "no sight" problem by picking up a couple of those cheap cameras that are used for surveillance or "baby monitoring". together with a couple of computer monitors (maybe borrowed?) you can give both the piano player and the rest of the group a view of each other. I've done this with success a number of times.
...if going this route, i recommend looking for something simple old analog (should be cheap), as most digital consumer devices delay the signal (at least they did when we tried that 10 years ago ). I'm sure there's really fast digital too, but i guess it's more expensive.
Old 20th May 2018
  #33
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
so after long planning i finally found a way to free up another bigger room where i could throw them all in.
Still wont be able to move the piano, but since the pianist plays vibes and rhodes on most tracks we were thinking of overdubbing piano if necessary.

Now trying to get the most out of the room with treatment. Dimension are roughly 220 cm height, 600x450 cm with and additional corner of 200x200.
Glass Front on one side, concrete walls for the rest. Thick carpeting on the floor.
I do have about 12 100x50 basic acoustic foam modules that i plan on using, plus 4 bass trap corner modules. Lots of carpet available in the house.
I also plan on buying acoustic dividers / drum shield / amp shield etc.. to minimize the bleed. Opinions on this? Are there cheaper (homemade) alternatives to the expensive acrylic glass stuff?

I know its still no Van Gelder wood Cathedral and that it wont sound perfect, but i m dead set on recording them here..

The Band will switch from Vibes to Fender Rhodes and Upright to Electric Bass depending on the song. I only have one amp at the moment but could possibly rent something else, if not go the DI way with either Bass or Rhodes, but would prefer a no headphones setup if possible.

Any other thoughts/ideas on how to get the best result?

Thanks for all the input so far too, it does help for sure.
Old 21st May 2018
  #34
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vernier's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
Do you even read posts, or just comment based on the title?
OP needs to rent something like in my post, or close to it, if he's into jazz.
Old 21st May 2018
  #35
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Funny Cat's Avatar
I think you can do it, even if you need to bunch all the players together. I think this will be a fun session. This video below should help, especially with the bass and drum miking. Also, if you're planning on overdubbing the piano, maybe have the pianist play a D.I. weighted keyboard so he can play together with the band. It'll help the vibe tremendously to have him in there while tracking. Overdub the upright afterward.


Old 22nd May 2018
  #36
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
last bump. I came across pretty good deals for mics locally and thus the setup changed a bit, heres what i m thinking:

1x Nevaton mk51 - Upright Bass (maybe add another mic ?)
2x AKG c414 - Piano / Rhodes / Vibes
1x Melodium 42b - Trumpet

Drums:
Audix D6 - bass
2x Microtech / Gefell MV692 with M70 capsules - overheads
SM57 - sd

There are two late 70s U87 not too far away from me at a decent price too, i m wondering if it would be worth it/adding that much ?

I m also going to build some Gobos on my own to improve seperation and acoustics.

thanks for the input!

Old 22nd May 2018
  #37
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thismercifulfate's Avatar
I would not put a D6 near anything on a jazz session. An EV RE20 or an AKG D12E will be much better suited for kick duties. Even a cheap ribbon mic or an SM57/58.
Old 22nd May 2018
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thismercifulfate View Post
I would not put a D6 near anything on a jazz session. An EV RE20 or an AKG D12E will be much better suited for kick duties. Even a cheap ribbon mic or an SM57/58.
i agree that one really don't need a mic that goes very low when the drummer is into 'bongo tuning' on the bass drum...
i mostly end up using a different mic on the bass drum too but the d6 is what the op seems to have, it ain't that bad (actually very good on kick out with a beta 91 inside for rock music) and sm57/58 imo won't do any 'better', just different.
Old 23rd May 2018
  #39
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sp12Jazz View Post
last bump. I came across pretty good deals for mics locally and thus the setup changed a bit, heres what i m thinking:

1x Nevaton mk51 - Upright Bass (maybe add another mic ?)
2x AKG c414 - Piano / Rhodes / Vibes
1x Melodium 42b - Trumpet

Drums:
Audix D6 - bass
2x Microtech / Gefell MV692 with M70 capsules - overheads
SM57 - sd

There are two late 70s U87 not too far away from me at a decent price too, i m wondering if it would be worth it/adding that much ?

I m also going to build some Gobos on my own to improve seperation and acoustics.

thanks for the input!

O.k., here's my opinion, since i'm pretty often in the same recording situation:

If you can afford the U87s grab them. Really nice drum overheads (worked several times for me at least). And you can use them for almost anything in the future.
The M70s are nice too, although i often found them a bit grainy as overheads (but with an interesting character). I'd recommend deciding when doing the soundcheck. They're good microphones, but the bleed on them sounds horrible. They could be great on the piano, if there are no drums in the room!

Somehow i never really found anything where the c414 shine - but i regularly use my c214 as the bass drum mic, works almost always (i like to mix it with a ribbon). I haven't used the D6, but if it sounds anything similar to the Shure beta52a, don't use it as the single bassdrum mic. Maybe combine it with something else (use the D6 to get the extra lowend).
It's good to have some options (if you have the time) to compare.

Bass: the Nevaton (which i don't know) looks very similar to my UM70, which i use in figure 8 for Upright Bass when there's a drumkit nearby. I suspend the UM70 with rubber bands in the bridge, so that it doesn't touch the bass. Gives a boomy sound, you'll have to use eq, but at least you have a usable signal / drum-noise ratio. I very often tried 'normal' mic setups in front of the bass with different mics, nothing comes close to that setup, IF loud drums are in the room.
It will sound a little 'pick-uppy', for that reason i use another mic further away to combine with, and for exclusive use in ballads or bass-soli when the drummer doesn't play loud... of course the drumkit has to be in the null of the 8 pattern.

And i'd put some big absorption in every available corner of the room. Two packets of uncompressed insulation for each will help a lot. If that's not doable, use mattresses (across the corner), that's better than nothing.

Good luck (again :-)!
Old 23rd May 2018
  #40
Gear Maniac
 

I actually had a similar situation last week (but with different instruments). It was a jazz group with guitar, electric bass, drums, and saxophone in one pretty small room (but much less high end gear as far as the console goes).

I also had to control bleed a lot. We used an Aston Halo for the horn (which worked very well). For the drums and electric instruments we used a mixture of the room's architecture (it was in a house and we had a half wall in the middle) and GIK freestanding Alpha absorber/diffusers. I think it will be important to have some freestanding absorbers like that to control the room getting too splashy with reflections.

Having line of sight is extremely important for jazz groups and everything should be recorded in live sessions as much as possible. I agree with using a camera if you need to for the piano. It's all about making the players comfortable. Make sure they are well fed and hydrated. Make sure the room is comfortable, too. It's no accident that some of the greatest jazz recordings were literally done in a living room. (The couches and furniture also are great at absorbing a lot of loud reflections).

As for mics, I think you're probably in good shape with your plans. One that I do like for jazz kick though is a u47 fet style mic. Also would work well on the bass probably.
Old 23rd May 2018
  #41
Lives for gear
This is an amazing thread and just hopping in and out to have it on my radar. I do think having the quartet together is important from a musicians point of view. Good luck!!!
Old 23rd May 2018
  #42
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AlexK's Avatar
 

You have to use your ears - I’ve spent a lot of time recording jazz and not once have I found a D6 to work. There may be exceptions out there but it’s an extremely coloured mic with a very scooped sound for a particular vibe (clicky bass drums essentially).
Old 4th June 2018
  #43
I've have good results putting a ribbon in the bridge of the bass, and positioning the null side of the mic to the drums.

I've also had good results using SDC's on the piano, just a few inches above the soundboard/strings, blended with a little bit of a contact mic. I find the SDCs usually have a tighter cardiod pattern that helps reduce bleed form drums.
Old 5th June 2018
  #44
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
only two more weeks to go, i m getting excited already. Unfortunatly we wont have much time, so i better be prepared! Any opinions are welcome still.

I couldnt get the U87s, but instead i ll be picking up two other Neumanns for a good price tomorrow. A very rare U497 (Neumann U 497 | RecordingHacks.com) and a KM84.

So the total list of available mics is:

Neumann KM84 & U497
2x Microtech Gefell 692
Nevaton MK51
2x AKG C414 B ULS
Melodium 42b
Shure SM57, 58
Audix D6
Audix Overheads
1x AKG D310, 1x AKG D130, 1x Beyerdynamic M58

How would you use them? Cant wait!!

Also, in terms of Preamps.. I ve got the Chilton Desk, studer 369, Aurora GTP8, Mono EAB Geiling Pre/EQ (60s german preamp) and a Custom Tube Stereo Preamp from a specialist in the UK whose name slips by me for now.. (the thing is rather dark sounding if i remember correctly)

Yes i know.. i could and will also just use my ears, but seeing as time to goof around will be limited and some of you guys got thousands of hours of experience in this field, it wont hurt to get some more input
Old 5th June 2018
  #45
din
Gear Nut
 
din's Avatar
 

Here's a recording of a jazz trio I did recently where you can actually see the most of the mic'ing, in case it's helpful.

OH: M160's (+28K button on MA5)
Kick: 4047
Snare: M80 top + MK012 bottom
Toms: MD421 top + SM57 bottom
Guitar: R121 + DI through an octave down pedal (to act as bass).
Keys: M88 + a little bit of the DI (off camera)
Room: R88 (off camera, placed in between all three players, just to the right of the camera)

https://youtu.be/k3HPMXAzLW0
Old 5th June 2018
  #46
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vernier's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sp12Jazz View Post
only two more weeks to go, i m getting excited already. Unfortunatly we wont have much time, so i better be prepared! Any opinions are welcome still.

I couldnt get the U87s, but instead i ll be picking up two other Neumanns for a good price tomorrow. A very rare U497 (Neumann U 497 | RecordingHacks.com) and a KM84.

So the total list of available mics is:

Neumann KM84 & U497
2x Microtech Gefell 692
Nevaton MK51
2x AKG C414 B ULS
Melodium 42b
Shure SM57, 58
Audix D6
Audix Overheads
1x AKG D310, 1x AKG D130, 1x Beyerdynamic M58

How would you use them? Cant wait!!

Also, in terms of Preamps.. I ve got the Chilton Desk, studer 369, Aurora GTP8, Mono EAB Geiling Pre/EQ (60s german preamp) and a Custom Tube Stereo Preamp from a specialist in the UK whose name slips by me for now.. (the thing is rather dark sounding if i remember correctly)

Yes i know.. i could and will also just use my ears, but seeing as time to goof around will be limited and some of you guys got thousands of hours of experience in this field, it wont hurt to get some more input
With that tiny space, deaden w/acoustic foam and use the BX for verb. And as few mics as possible.
Old 5th June 2018
  #47
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by din View Post
Here's a recording of a jazz trio I did recently where you can actually see the most of the mic'ing, in case it's helpful.

OH: M160's (+28K button on MA5)
Kick: 4047
Snare: M80 top + MK012 bottom
Toms: MD421 top + SM57 bottom
Guitar: R121 + DI through an octave down pedal (to act as bass).
Keys: M88 + a little bit of the DI (off camera)
Room: R88 (off camera, placed in between all three players, just to the right of the camera)

https://youtu.be/k3HPMXAzLW0
great stuff and very helpful. are there absorbers on the ceiling too ?
Old 5th June 2018
  #48
din
Gear Nut
 
din's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sp12Jazz View Post
great stuff and very helpful. are there absorbers on the ceiling too ?
Thanks! Yes, those are ceiling absorbers. They really help a lot when recording in a basement w/ low ceilings.

https://www.atsacoustics.com/acousti...nel-24x48.html
Old 7th June 2018
  #49
Gear Head
Send all of the instruments to a well-known repair guys, and make certain they all sound great. You'll need; A great band, in a good sounding room. Follow the K.I.S.S. Rule, do not overcomplicate anything.


Mics? The 414's work for the piano, the ribbon, for the horns. The D-6 is a "hyped" kick mic, I love it for rock kick, but for jazz, an RE-20 will do a much better job. Maybe go with a mono overhead, a ribbon perhaps, a good excuse for buying a Royer! Maybe buy a Beyer Dynamic M201 for snare. Toms- buy some MD 421's, Beyer M88's. Find the older MD 421's on ebay though, the newer MD 421 II, I am not a fan of.



Set a good vibe, in a nice sounding room, give the musicians, good sounding instruments and most of the work should be finished, sit back, and listen. If it sounds good, it is good.
Old 11th June 2018
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sp12Jazz View Post
only two more weeks to go, i m getting excited already. Unfortunatly we wont have much time, so i better be prepared! Any opinions are welcome still.

I couldnt get the U87s, but instead i ll be picking up two other Neumanns for a good price tomorrow. A very rare U497 (Neumann U 497 | RecordingHacks.com) and a KM84.

So the total list of available mics is:

Neumann KM84 & U497
2x Microtech Gefell 692
Nevaton MK51
2x AKG C414 B ULS
Melodium 42b
Shure SM57, 58
Audix D6
Audix Overheads
1x AKG D310, 1x AKG D130, 1x Beyerdynamic M58

How would you use them? Cant wait!!

Also, in terms of Preamps.. I ve got the Chilton Desk, studer 369, Aurora GTP8, Mono EAB Geiling Pre/EQ (60s german preamp) and a Custom Tube Stereo Preamp from a specialist in the UK whose name slips by me for now.. (the thing is rather dark sounding if i remember correctly)

Yes i know.. i could and will also just use my ears, but seeing as time to goof around will be limited and some of you guys got thousands of hours of experience in this field, it wont hurt to get some more input
Sounds like you found some nice mics!
Here's a link with some information on your 497...
https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=65768.0

You might want to try this mic on the upright.

I have used fet 47s on uprights several times, and found them to sound quite nice at times.

If it doesn't kill you, an audition of the Nevaton might be in order.

In Agreement with the D6 being the wrong kick mic for jazz.
It's not anywhere near round enough, and the beater is too accentuated.


If you want to build some gobos (3/4" plywood, a panel of 1/2" ridgid insulation board, wrap with burlap on a budget), a layer of sheetrock in the sandwich adds mass, and is helpful for lower frequencies.

We built some rather large ones using full sheets of plywood, adding a cutout for a Perspex window.

Sidebar:
The KM-84 and the Nevaton will most likely make a very nice M+S pairing when you want to use this technique.

Have a great session!
Old 29th June 2018
  #51
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
Recorded the band this week and thought i d leave a little report as well as a massive thanks to all of you! Considering this being my first time as an engineer, first time recording a band, i think i did pretty ok. Of course, there is lots that can be better, but i learned quite some stuff in those three days.

Heres some thoughts:

- Got the room sounding fairly dead. Carpet, 4 big gobos, acoustic foam, mattrasses in the corner, lots of rock wool in front of the windows and a 'second' ceiling over the drums and vibes made out of rock wool, wood and foam absorbers. Bleed is surprisingly mild, too.

- You guys were absolutely right about it being pretty much essential for them to play together / see each other. We did a lot of overdubs on tape with the acoustic piano and it worked great too, but that energy of them playing togehter..wow!

- Great players, and with Jazz and this skill-set dynamics are all over the place. Pretty challenging at first for me to get the volumes right when hitting tape.
As a result, some of it is pretty noisy as i recorded to low (Hello, acoustic bass.. ). Which HW noise reduction do you guys recommend?

- Trumpet / Melodium 42B into Chilton Preamp / a lil BX20 = GOLD. And literally took 2 minutes to get the sound right. Never touched it after.

- Upright/Electric Bass = A B*tch to get right. I should have listened to you guys and put the U497 at it straight away, unfortunately did so late into the session.
Tried different things, pickup, DI, 414, Nevaton.. never had 'that' sound.
Levels on tape all over the place too, maybe i should have used a comp before hitting tape? Any suggestions for the next session are welcome

- Drums where Nevaton on BD (cant really judge how good that compares to other bassdrum mics, but thought it sounded better than my other mic options) / 2x Gefell Over Heads (beautiful top end, great dynamics) / 57 on snare / Calrec CM1050 toms (that sounded great actually!)

- Vibes/Piano/Rhodes etc.. either 414s or the Neumann 497 (this basically sounded great on literally anything).. the vibes could have sounded a little more 'plucky' to me, but the player wanted the mics up fairly high. A little try with transient designer already helped to get it sounding more like i pictured.

I cant really post stuff as its not my decision to share, but i ll see if i can do so at some point!

Again - thanks for the inspiration!
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