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Singer-songwriter recording - how hard can it be? Condenser Microphones
Old 12th May 2018
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupez View Post
It's all about DI and / or good lip syncing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
It does seem unlikely that the video is entirely live, but the audio seems to be. At any rate, the execution is really good.

On second thought, it could be entirely live but cut together from several takes. Given that it's just him and the guitar and the nature of the music, that would make sense. Do a few takes, excuse the audience and strike the chairs, then do a few more.

Why would the JPW video not be live? The guy of civil wars would need lip sync to perform that thing live? Are you people serious?
Old 12th May 2018
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProgFree View Post
Why would the JPW video not be live?
To be live in one take, you'd have at least 4 camera operators climbing all over those chairs and the audience and each other. Very, very quietly. Live in several takes with one camera is much more likely and practical.
Old 12th May 2018
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
To be live in one take, you'd have at least 4 camera operators climbing all over those chairs and the audience and each other. Very, very quietly. Live in several takes with one camera is much more likely and practical.
This I can buy, but not lip syncing. JPW is a very talented musician, he doesn't need such tricks.
Old 13th May 2018
  #184
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Various preferences for the amount of desired reverb have appropriately been raised in this thread: my observations were intended to provide some historical perspective and an honest assessment of current market taste and expectation. Brent, I would like to see a new thread that examines the pros and cons of one or two camera music video shoots. Your astute speculation pursuant to multi camera shoots is spot on and at this point, in the closing chapters of my work life, I find an unlimited amount of opportunity to video a few tunes with high end audio for performers to use as promo tools. Given the demise of CD sales that have been replaced with digital downloads and unprecedented live performance touring opportunities an honest, realistic video will go a lot further than radio play and a booking agent soliciting gigs. I have developed a protocol that is a one camera shoot that endeavors to present the real musical skill and arrangement execution of a given performer with minimum camera movement. Our local university has a media major video studies speciality that is not in total agreement with bare bones video shoots however their focus on multi camera visual stimulation with minimal audio capture quality does not create a strong marketing tool for soliciting gigs.
One of the best benefits of a single mic audio capture for a singing guitar player is the fact that a full face video shot is easy to accomplish: see what you can get when the singer is eating a mic.
Hugh
Old 16th May 2018
  #185
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when so much of the final guitar sound is from the vocal mic what do you folk do about editing out lip-moistening and other weird noises? retake?
Old 16th May 2018
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutetourettes View Post
when so much of the final guitar sound is from the vocal mic what do you folk do about editing out lip-moistening and other weird noises? retake?
I would just back the vocal mic off and position to keep a good balance. And give the artist a damn glass of water.
Old 17th May 2018
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutetourettes View Post
when so much of the final guitar sound is from the vocal mic what do you folk do about editing out lip-moistening and other weird noises? retake?

everybody loves 'reality' and 'authenticity' right up until they don't.
Old 17th May 2018
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
everybody loves 'reality' and 'authenticity' right up until they don't.
There are plenty of great singer-songwriters who prefer to sing and play at the same time, and enjoy a more natural/authentic sound. I'm looking at Greg Brown, Tim O'Brien, Darrell Scott, Jason Isbell, Chris Stapleton, the list goes on.

Luckily, those guys either come with producers or go to engineers that they trust (the ones that don't ask them 'so, are you going to sing AND play?')
Old 17th May 2018
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
I would just back the vocal mic off and position to keep a good balance. And give the artist a damn glass of water.
yeah great idea, back off the vocal mic and then pick up more guitar and room reflection
Old 17th May 2018
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
Luckily, those guys either come with producers or go to engineers that they trust (the ones that don't ask them 'so, are you going to sing AND play?')
Right, and those folks they trust get trusted to say say things like "You sniffed right before the bridge. Let's pick up that spot." Or "You popped a P. Let's pick up that spot." Or "You almost forgot the words and you recovered but your Qi momentarily left the building. Let's pick up that spot."
Old 17th May 2018
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
There are plenty of great singer-songwriters who prefer to sing and play at the same time, and enjoy a more natural/authentic sound. I'm looking at Greg Brown, Tim O'Brien, Darrell Scott, Jason Isbell, Chris Stapleton, the list goes on.

Luckily, those guys either come with producers or go to engineers that they trust (the ones that don't ask them 'so, are you going to sing AND play?')
are you going to sing AND play AND moisten your lips?
Old 17th May 2018
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Let's pick up that spot." Or "You popped a P. Let's pick up that spot." Or "You almost forgot the words and you recovered but your Qi momentarily left the building. Let's pick up that spot."
when is the last time this happened though? 1990s? The DAW ended these concerns
Old 17th May 2018
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardinal_SINE View Post
yeah great idea, back off the vocal mic and then pick up more guitar and room reflection

Not if you have a well treated space and good mic positioning!
Old 17th May 2018
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardinal_SINE View Post
when is the last time this happened though? 1990s? The DAW ended these concerns
Whether it's just a person singing and playing guitar at the same time, or a bigger group all in the same room, for the most part every mic hears a lot of other things besides the thing it's pointed at. In that respect, the only concern DAW's ended was the need for a razor blade.
Old 17th May 2018
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Whether it's just a person singing and playing guitar at the same time, or a bigger group all in the same room, for the most part every mic hears a lot of other things besides the thing it's pointed at. In that respect, the only concern DAW's ended was the need for a razor blade.
IMO it's much easier and more productive to just edit out pops/noise mishaps than it is to make the singer suffer through endless re-takes. A simple zoom in and fade in/out and the p-pop gone in an instant. TBH I haven't even owned a pop filter since the mid 90s. I have just edited for 25 years now. It takes me less time to edit the mistakes than it did to setup the pop filter in the first place. In some cases I have even replaced vocal comps with automation. It's much more versatile. Depends on the singer.
Old 17th May 2018
  #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Right, and those folks they trust get trusted to say say things like "You sniffed right before the bridge. Let's pick up that spot." Or "You popped a P. Let's pick up that spot." Or "You almost forgot the words and you recovered but your Qi momentarily left the building. Let's pick up that spot."
I guess that's the Hollywood version- picking up spots.
Old 17th May 2018
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
Not if you have a well treated space and good mic positioning!

sure in theory, but for someone asking "how hard can it be" it's doubtful they have either of those going for them
Old 17th May 2018
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
I guess that's the Hollywood version- picking up spots.
Depends on how much time you've got, and stamina, and how many paid participants are involved. Having a big bunch of complete takes to choose from is terrific, but I'm just sitting back in the chair and hitting the red button.
Old 17th May 2018
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardinal_SINE View Post
IMO it's much easier and more productive to just edit out pops/noise mishaps than it is to make the singer suffer through endless re-takes. A simple zoom in and fade in/out and the p-pop gone in an instant. TBH I haven't even owned a pop filter since the mid 90s. I have just edited for 25 years now. It takes me less time to edit the mistakes than it did to setup the pop filter in the first place. In some cases I have even replaced vocal comps with automation. It's much more versatile. Depends on the singer.
Between this and the thing you just said about dbx compressors in another thread and your general tone of contrarian pomposity, you seem to live in an alternate audio universe. Or maybe it's just an alternate universe, with no actual audio involved.
Old 17th May 2018
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Depends on how much time you've got, and stamina, and how many paid participants are involved. Having a big bunch of complete takes to choose from is terrific, but I'm just sitting back in the chair and hitting the red button.
It depends on who's making the record. Bands like Devil Makes Three, The Wood Brothers, Old Crow Medicine Show, etc... might comp takes, but they're not going to 'pick up from that spot.'
Old 17th May 2018
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
It depends on who's making the record. Bands like Devil Makes Three, The Wood Brothers, Old Crow Medicine Show, etc... might comp takes, but they're not going to 'pick up from that spot.'
Understood. Works either way. Main point being that the fix involves all hands.
Old 17th May 2018
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardinal_SINE View Post
sure in theory, but for someone asking "how hard can it be" it's doubtful they have either of those going for them

Right! You got me there!
Old 17th May 2018
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Between this and the thing you just said about dbx compressors in another thread and your general tone of contrarian pomposity, you seem to live in an alternate audio universe. Or maybe it's just an alternate universe, with no actual audio involved.
I don't think pop filters are relevant any longer. It's just another barrier in creating a pure vocal track. I also don't think vocal compressors are relevant either unless for used for texture in rare cases. It's not being "contrarian"... It's more like I enjoy utilizing more modern methodologies and approaches. Sorry but I embrace technology. I use it to the fullest. What do you think of "vocal rider" plugins?? Well I have been doing that for 25 years since I got my first DAW. I am a huge proponent of natural dynamics and "less is more" as well as transparency in vocal sounds. I like it to sound natural.

I will take your "alternate universe" remark as compliment. Thanks for the compliment Brett.
Old 17th May 2018
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardinal_SINE View Post
I don't think pop filters are relevant any longer.
For you, I can see why they wouldn't be. And vocal compressors, too.
Old 17th May 2018
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
For you, I can see why they wouldn't be. And vocal compressors, too.
well perhaps you can 'hear' why......
Old 17th May 2018
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardinal_SINE View Post
well perhaps you can 'hear' why......
I'd love to hear why. Post some of your work.
Old 17th May 2018
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I'd love to hear why.
I was being metaphorical, you wrote "see" but music is heard. I was kidding around with you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Post some of your work.
I thought you didn't like alternate universes?? I'm not going to post anything since your motivation is just to insult me. There is nothing that has ever been recording that can't be critiqued in some way by somebody. Nothing is exempt from personal taste.
Old 17th May 2018
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardinal_SINE View Post
I'm not going to post anything since your motivation is just to insult me.
Not that I expect you to take my word for it, but I have never said an unkind word about work anyone has posted here. Ever.
Old 17th May 2018
  #209
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BTW someone being a talented performer probably would make it easier to lip sync. Lots of things going on when a shoot is involved and a lot of money. Figure the video and picture, is paramount. Trying to match sound between takes could be hugely problematic. Really has nothing to do with the performer being able to perform and everything to do with capturing the image properly and the directors vision.....Being in a cutting room with a lot of crappy takes is not where you want to be.
Old 17th May 2018
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
OK I'll play . . .
Haven't done the troubador thing in a hundred years, and my voice sucks, but here's with a pseudo M/S - Fig. 8 mic down at guitar level, mono cardioid at mouth level. Dupe the fig8, flip phase, etc.

One version is mono only, the other M/S. No amount of fX can cover my lousy singing, but I wanted to show the OP (and anyone else) one way to do the guitar/singer thing.
For what it's worth, your voice is a lot better than mine! I actually like the rawness and organic feel. May I ask what your vocal chain was? I liked the subtle reverb.

Last edited by Alrod; 17th May 2018 at 06:39 PM.. Reason: Spelling
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