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Impact of Preamp vs Impact of Mic Condenser Microphones
Old 30th April 2018
  #211
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CrankyChris's Avatar
 

Awesome! Thanks for doing that!
Old 30th April 2018
  #212
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Yep. You have a terrific voice Pangolin, and Take 1 is better.

Again, I also found I preferred the Shure 57/58/7 going into a "clean" (rather than "character" style pre), on my vocals too.
I like having the greater detail.

Chris
Old 30th April 2018
  #213
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by djguyacier View Post
You need the trim all the way up for it to really wow! Better luck next time.

Have any pics of your preamps?
I was singing and playing into a single dynamic mic. Folks don't generally do that- and maybe for good reason! It does take considerable gain to capture. I'm not sure if you listen to much folk-blues (early Taj Mahal, Ry Cooder, etc...)- it's not usually very polished.

Again- the point of posting the tracks was to illustrate the sonics of two different preamps on the same mic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
Yes plz ignore me. "Sheen" on an unmixed track. Whatever dude.


By the way Pangolin didn't even say if he had a mic on the guitar or not so what are you even talking about comparing the two? For all you know, you are hearing just the SM7 capture.
Indeed- one mic, one take.
Old 30th April 2018
  #214
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
I was singing and playing into a single dynamic mic. Folks don't generally do that- and maybe for good reason! It does take considerable gain to capture. I'm not sure if you listen to much folk-blues (early Taj Mahal, Ry Cooder, etc...)- it's not usually very polished.

Again- the point of posting the tracks was to illustrate the sonics of two different preamps on the same mic.



Indeed- one mic, one take.

Bingo! and thanks for clarifying. Seems I do indeed know how to listen "to abstract and listen for the “sound”". You should ignore his comments. Your recordings sounded extremely appropriate for the style. Dude can crawl back into his cave now.
Old 30th April 2018
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djguyacier View Post
You are a very talented musician, for sure. You have a great voice and overall technique. I never critiqued your talent, which is so apparent.
Thx.

I do know what you're saying about the sound- I don't love it. I'm still looking for a sound I dig...(like many of us!).
Old 30th April 2018
  #216
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
Thx.

I do know what you're saying about the sound- I don't love it. I'm still looking for a sound I dig...(like many of us!).

My advice would be don't obsess over the "perfect" sound as a self recordist. Right now you are getting good clean vocal recordings and any engineer worth their salt can take that and totally transform your recordings into something special provided the performances are inspiring. Sheen is easy to do once the recordings are clean and free of pops, clicks computer background noise etc.




P.S. Try a nice LDC tube mic. You might be very surprised at how much more you like your recordings...even through the AML.
Old 30th April 2018
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
^^^^ This. All the way. There is absolutely no way you can attribute the difference in these recordings to the mic pre. Absolutely NO WAY! You'd have to have the EXACT same performance with the EXACT same mic placement.
A Disklavier player piano playing the same MIDI sequence?
A carnival calliope?
a music box?

how about the P.E.A.R.T drum robot??

Old 30th April 2018
  #218
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
Just to be crystal clear for future readers, I think we both agree that some preamps “can” push you in a certain sonic direction. It’s just that high end mic pres do NOT make poor sounding Mics sound good and they absolutely don’t have as big of an impact on sound as mic selection.
Yes, exactly. No claim that preamps make zero difference. But the core job of a preamp is to amplify the low level of a mic up to line, with as little damage to the signal as possible, not to add color or frequency anomalies. Just happens that trans pre's can be pushed to saturate, and that can be a usable and pleasant-sounding contribution (or not) to what is already coming out of the microphone.
Old 30th April 2018
  #219
... or the gamelatron:

Old 30th April 2018
  #220
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by djguyacier View Post
So, I’m good with my Soundblaster.

Awesome!
That's gonna be your decision to make.
Old 30th April 2018
  #221
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Rockabilly69's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
Glad you mentioned RME. I was thinking of moving to RME A/D as an affordable alternative for all my console I/O after hearing a drum shootout posted by Dylan Wissing here on GS. He shot out his RME stock pres vs API and a few other high end pres and let me tell you EVERYONE in the thread was really surprised at how well the RME sounded compared to the others. I personally liked the RME's better than his API 3124. After hearing his shootout I decided I don't need API pres for drums like everyone and their aunt says here on GS. I decided to stick with buying nice tube mic pres for drums. They make a bigger difference to my ears.
Well my project studio is based around RME stuff. It's a RME UCX with a RME ADI-8 DS for 8 channels of A/D (2 channels of ADL600, 4 channels of Sebatron VMP400e, and 2 LA-610s). Coming into the line inputs of the UCX are 2 channels of Neve Portico 5012, Manley Voxbox, and the BAE 1073 MPF. I also have an Audient Mico coming in on the SPDIF in. So along with my Babyface that I use at home and on the road, I am extremely happy with the RME gear. (see pic below although the BAE is sitting out of the pic.)

I assume there's a few people out hear in gearslutz land that do what I do, which is, run a project studio and book just enough gigs to pay the rent so you have a nice studio to produce your own music. Singer songwriters in my area like the sound I get so I can easily pay the rent and then some, so any extra money I make in the studio I put into equipment, but frankly, I could easily get by with much less equipment than I have there. I could easily get by with just my Mackie Onyx 1640i and a few tube pres for vocals and guitar. The one out-board preamp that is the key is the Manley Voxbox for vocals, which I like, and for anything that requires a pair of mics I like the Sebatron VMP4000s.

On my last CD, one of the songs that people like the most is a simple finger-picked ballad that I recorded in the attic bedroom of my childhood summer home with a Neumann TLM 103 straight into the Babyface, vocal and guitar through the same mic. And two other songs were a combination of a Neumann M147 and a pair of KM184s through the Babyface. I love having nice preamps, but sometimes just having the patience to move mics around until you find the magic of the room is more important than the preamp.

On the other, I rarely use cheap microphones! And I've never gotten a take with a cheap microphone that made it to one of my CDs. I always travel with the Babyface, a M147 and a pair KM184s, which are two mics that are bashed here more than I can count

Old 1st May 2018
  #222
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
A Disklavier player piano playing the same MIDI sequence?
A carnival calliope?
a music box?

how about the P.E.A.R.T drum robot??



Yes. Absolutely. They used a Disklavier in the SOS article to keep the performance 100% consistent.
Old 1st May 2018
  #223
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Rockabilly69's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
Yes. Absolutely. They used a Disklavier in the SOS article to keep the performance 100% consistent.
Or just run a looper into a guitar amp, and mic the speaker for the same effect.
Old 1st May 2018
  #224
Deleted 6ccb844
Guest
What about an XLR splitter? Then record both samples on the same track so one can't be louder than the other..
Old 1st May 2018
  #225
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockabilly69 View Post
Or just run a looper into a guitar amp, and mic the speaker for the same effect.
For electric guitar, this would be somewhat real-world. But the speaker itself is too much of a leveler for instruments that are normally recorded acoustically in the real world. Vocals, drums, piano, ac. guitar. I hardly ever record singers by miking up the PA, for example.

I think if you are assembling "clips" for an online shootout, repeatable mechanical instruments are about as "fair" as you can get for acoustic stuff. Plus they are a hoot.

But I also know from experience that you can come to useful Conclusions about gear by doing less rigorous shootouts - as long as you do enough of them - and do them in your own studio in the context of doing actual work.
Old 1st May 2018
  #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted 6ccb844
What about an XLR splitter?
There are compromises here as well. You have to use a Y or a transformer. Which can affect the mic or the preamps response to the mic. This was considered and rejected for the 3D Audio preamp comparison - one of the more well-known shootouts.

In their tests, they had studio musicians doing their best to be consistent. IMO they were consistent enough so you could benefit from listening. I picked the Fearn every time! In fact, that's why I bought it.

here is Lynn Fuston's excellent rundown of the different options for shooting out preamps and the pluses and minuses of each:

Comparing Preamps - EMusician

Quote:
Then record both samples on the same track so one can't be louder than the other..
wait... what?
Old 1st May 2018
  #227
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Rockabilly69's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
For electric guitar, this would be somewhat real-world. But the speaker itself is too much of a leveler for instruments that are normally recorded acoustically in the real world. Vocals, drums, piano, ac. guitar. I hardly ever record singers by miking up the PA, for example.

I think if you are assembling "clips" for an online shootout, repeatable mechanical instruments are about as "fair" as you can get for acoustic stuff. Plus they are a hoot.

But I also know from experience that you can come to useful Conclusions about gear by doing less rigorous shootouts - as long as you do enough of them - and do them in your own studio in the context of doing actual work.
I was specifically talking about an electric guitar test, so totally repeatable results including the tone of the speaker. For acoustic stuff I would just try to be as consistent as possible with the instruments and voices.
Old 1st May 2018
  #228
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CrankyChris's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
There are compromises here as well. You have to use a Y or a transformer. Which can affect the mic or the preamps response to the mic. This was considered and rejected for the 3D Audio preamp comparison - one of the more well-known shootouts.

In their tests, they had studio musicians doing their best to be consistent. IMO they were consistent enough so you could benefit from listening. I picked the Fearn every time! In fact, that's why I bought it.

here is Lynn Fuston's excellent rundown of the different options for shooting out preamps and the pluses and minuses of each:

Comparing Preamps - EMusician


wait... what?
Wow! I bought that CD. I think I actually picked it up at Lynn's house b/c I lived in Franklin, TN.

I still have the notebook with all my notes. I listened to it several times.

I too liked the Fearn, along with the 1081, the GML and the original Great River (clean) - which was my favorite --- which I bought. I think I also liked the Mackie VLZ

I remember not liking the 1073 and to this day, I'm still not crazy about it. I think I just like clean pres...My list of likes are pretty much all clean - even the Fearn.
Old 1st May 2018
  #229
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CrankyChris's Avatar
 

I think you're too talented for this board. Your ears are just too good.

Maybe try the high end forum - they may be up to your level of skill.
Old 1st May 2018
  #230
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robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by djguyacier View Post
Psycho Monkey is a lousy moderator. He behaves like an old Soviet commissar or some sort of overbearing Orwellian censor. He sent me a private message telling me I'm warned for being "insulting"?

What kind of childish, nagging, bullying is this? It's like Fakebook level social manipulation.

Gearslutz is some sort of lame "safe space" now?

Watch, he'll probably suspend my account now for challenging his "lordship"

Gearslutz has gone down hill.

I miss the Fletcher days when it was a group of pro audio crazy people that actually knew something.
Why so angry? You've been posting on GS for less than 24 hours, and all I can see anyway, is that you have a large chip on your shoulder.
Old 1st May 2018
  #231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted 6ccb844 View Post
What about an XLR splitter? Then record both samples on the same track so one can't be louder than the other..
Impedance issues, I'm thinking.

[EDIT: Oops, late to the table again. Already mentioned.]


But as long as I'm here and stuck with either a post or a deleted-post-message, let me just add some thoughts I had regarding that gamelatron as a source for ABX or other blind comparison:

As charmed as I am by the automatonic instrument, I'm pretty convinced that there's a fair amount of chaos sneaking into its performance. I just don't see how you could squeegee out all the chaotic variables.
Old 1st May 2018
  #232
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyChris View Post
Wow! I bought that CD. I think I actually picked it up at Lynn's house b/c I lived in Franklin, TN.

I still have the notebook with all my notes. I listened to it several times.

I too liked the Fearn, along with the 1081, the GML and the original Great River (clean) - which was my favorite --- which I bought. I think I also liked the Mackie VLZ

I remember not liking the 1073 and to this day, I'm still not crazy about it. I think I just like clean pres...My list of likes are pretty much all clean - even the Fearn.

My girlfriend would quiz me, and I kept picking the same favorites. The fact that most of my favorites were expensive, convinced me that I must have great taste!

but seriously, it did also convince me that you can hear the differences in clips, even "through" slightly varying performances.
Old 1st May 2018
  #233
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Why so angry? You've been posting on GS for less than 24 hours, and all I can see anyway, is that you have a large chip on your shoulder.
24 hours is a pretty short time to get "fed up" with anything. My guess is that he was previously banned and this 24-hour-old account is just him 'coming back'.
Old 1st May 2018
  #234
Gear Addict
Universal Audio's blog had an interesting thing about preamps and recording chain. Some famous mixers/engineers share their thoughts: How the Pros Choose Microphone Preamps | Universal Audio
Old 1st May 2018
  #235
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CrankyChris's Avatar
 

First line of the article made me laugh a little bit...Which one of these things is not like the others?
Quote:
When it comes to iconic mic preamps, the "Big Four" manufacturers — Neve, API, SSL, and Universal Audio ....
Old 1st May 2018
  #236
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyChris View Post
First line of the article made me laugh a little bit...Which one of these things is not like the others?
Sure, its a little biased perhaps... :-) but the essence of the article is sensible. Source, mic, pre, convertor, the rest.

I think that's a credible approach. Personally, i think pres matter just a little. Pushing them is just as an overdrive...and people go beserk over overdrives. So i can imagine the passion :-)
Old 1st May 2018
  #237
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CrankyChris's Avatar
 

Yeah - i wasn't poo pooing the gist - I just thought the first line was funny
Old 1st May 2018
  #238
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyChris View Post
Yeah - i wasn't poo pooing the gist - I just thought the first line was funny
No poo taken :-D

Hehe yhea, not disagreeing tho.
Old 1st May 2018
  #239
So to sum things up it's either;

Hey, i just bought a cheapass preamp to my expensive mic! It's gonna be great!

Or..

Hey I bought a super expensive preamp to my cheapass mic, it's gonna be great!!

Attached Thumbnails
Impact of Preamp vs Impact of Mic-cheapidicheap.jpg  
Old 1st May 2018
  #240
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Timothy Lawler's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
24 hours is a pretty short time to get "fed up" with anything. My guess is that he was previously banned and this 24-hour-old account is just him 'coming back'.
Strange that his join date is June 2011 but first post was in this thread.

edit: His posts in this thread are gone though. Maybe that's happened before.
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