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Updates on Cranborne Audio Camden 500, 500R8, 500ADAT - Test Drive Mojo!
Old 18th July 2019
  #181
Many thanks Ells for your detailed response.

So you think it would still be possible to insert balanced gear without any signal degradation? Would you advise converting the signal to balanced on the way out?

One other question - am I correct that the channel insert sends are post 500 module and that all the analogue and digital channel outputs are post insert return but pre fader?

Thanks again.

Last edited by TEMAS; 18th July 2019 at 03:49 PM..
Old 18th July 2019
  #182
Lives for gear
 

Latest news on rack units assembly?
Old 18th July 2019
  #183
Here for the gear
I want to hear it too!
Old 18th July 2019
  #184
Here for the gear
By the way, I'm in charge of sound design in a small game studio.
I want "battery powered Camden500" for location recording.
noisefloor and THD is lower than all of highend mobile amp with mojo knob.

if it will been small device like SoundDevices MixPre(-D)
it will definitely have a demand.
Old 19th July 2019
  #185
Gear Head
My 500 adat is taking 5 weeks to get delivered to Canada. Is this normal? Or are you guys so stuffed with orders that you had to build the thing first?

Lol. Just wondering. This is my first foray into "real gear," other than mics and an interface.
Old 19th July 2019
  #186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlane View Post
My 500 adat is taking 5 weeks to get delivered to Canada. Is this normal? Or are you guys so stuffed with orders that you had to build the thing first?

Lol. Just wondering. This is my first foray into "real gear," other than mics and an interface.
I think you should go back to the store and make the salesman guarantee that 5 week promise, which I doubt he will do. AFAIK these units are still in production and there is no fixed ETA.

FWIW, I think it looks like product that is really worth the wait, but only if you're prepared for further delays, which your dealer should have already been upfront about.
Old 19th July 2019
  #187
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TEMAS View Post
I think you should go back to the store and make the salesman guarantee that 5 week promise, which I doubt he will do. AFAIK these units are still in production and there is no fixed ETA.

FWIW, I think it looks like product that is really worth the wait, but only if you're prepared for further delays, which your dealer should have already been upfront about.
Correct, these aren’t yet shipping. Nor is there a confirmed shipping date. If you need something now, you’d have to go a different brand.
Old 19th July 2019
  #188
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TEMAS View Post
Many thanks Ells for your detailed response.

So you think it would still be possible to insert balanced gear without any signal degradation? Would you advise converting the signal to balanced on the way out?

One other question - am I correct that the channel insert sends are post 500 module and that all the analogue and digital channel outputs are post insert return but pre fader?

Thanks again.
You're welcome mate - great questions!

You would be absolutely fine to run balanced gear into 500R8 unbalanced insert points. If you want to run the insert points over 10-15m then it would probably be good to convert the signal to balanced however for normal applications you will be absolutely fine. In some gear the unbalanced inputs are actually cleaner than the balanced ones due to all of the circuitry required for balancing!

You are correct about the signal path too! Input > module > Insert > ADC > Mixbus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nd33 View Post
Latest news on rack units assembly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by INARI View Post
I want to hear it too!
We have been quiet lately... mainly because we are all a bit fed up at saying dates that then pass us by due to one reason or another - I'm sure that's as frustrating for you guys as it is for us!

But we are also quiet because we are moving forward... production has started and boards are being made as we speak! Everything will begin to be assembled into the metalwork in the next few weeks and then once they are built up, tested, and tested again, we will begin shipping them.

We haven't announced a date yet as we don't even know how long it takes to put all 9 boards into a metal box! but once we have worked out the best method through trial and error, we can estimate when we can box 'em up and ship 'em out.

As soon as we have a concrete date, we will let you know. But the wait is almost over!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlane View Post
My 500 adat is taking 5 weeks to get delivered to Canada. Is this normal? Or are you guys so stuffed with orders that you had to build the thing first?

Lol. Just wondering. This is my first foray into "real gear," other than mics and an interface.
Hi @ Dlane , HHB Canada were one of the first distributors to sign-us-up and we want to make sure they are amongst the first to get their units! 5 weeks is an approximation and factors in production and shipping. In reality, as soon as they are boxed up, they get on a plane to Canada. So whilst that date may not be too far away, it will be the quickest we can possibly achieve.

Hang in there just a little bit longer! I have a 500ADAT connected to my Apollo for the office radio whilst I type this message and I am salivating at the prospect of having one of my own!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by INARI View Post
By the way, I'm in charge of sound design in a small game studio.
I want "battery powered Camden500" for location recording.
noisefloor and THD is lower than all of highend mobile amp with mojo knob.

if it will been small device like SoundDevices MixPre(-D)
it will definitely have a demand.
That is quite interesting... We reckon Camden 500 would be awesome in broadcast markets - it's pretty damn clean after all! But this would be a good way to get in, potentially. Thanks for bringing this to our attention! Let us know via DM if you have any specific ideas that would be good to consider in comparison to the SoundDevices MixPre!

Thanks all! Really appreciate you patience and you've all made a big impression on us due to your kind words and appreciation! We're so close we can almost taste the celebratory beer!
Old 19th July 2019
  #189
Hi again Ells. Do you have an idea of when you will be able to give an estimate of price for the N22 unit? KMR has the N22h listed for £899, which I presume is a gross error. Being able to switch between two analogue sources would be quite handy though. Thanks
Old 20th July 2019
  #190
Gear Head
Okay that's cool I was just wondering. I've already paid and there's no way I'm going back on it or anything like that. Can't wait! The store (long and mcquade in Nanaimo,) originally said 2 weeks, that's why I asked.
Old 22nd July 2019
  #191
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TEMAS View Post
Hi again Ells. Do you have an idea of when you will be able to give an estimate of price for the N22 unit? KMR has the N22h listed for £899, which I presume is a gross error. Being able to switch between two analogue sources would be quite handy though. Thanks

Hey @ TEMAS , due to the delays with 500R8/500ADAT, N22/N22H have taken a little bit of a back seat, however we have progressed them to a point of knowing the costs and we are aiming for around ~£100 for N22, and ~£180 for N22H. But we're quietly confident that we could come in for less.

£899 is most certainly an error... not sure where that came from! Charging that for them would be pretty criminal!

Ells
Old 3rd August 2019
  #192
Gear Nut
 
Bodhifile's Avatar
Hey Ells, I saw the instagram post, and it looks as though production is getting closer!

I was wondering, since both the ADC and DAC chips are 32-bit, is staying at 32-bit possible, or is there a 24-bit limitation somewhere in the implementation? I assume the usb drivers stream 32-bit.

Thanks!
Old 3rd August 2019
  #193
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodhifile View Post
Hey Ellis, I saw the instagram post, and it looks as though production is getting closer!

I was wondering, since both the ADC and DAC chips are 32-bit, is staying at 32-bit possible, or is there a 24-bit limitation somewhere in the implementation? I assume the usb drivers stream 32-bit.

Thanks!
Hi Bodhifile, This is one of those slightly misleading bits of marketing that converter manufacturers use to make their tech look better. A 32 bit DAC is just a very nice 6 bit sigma delta DAC with 32 bit internal filtering. It doesn't actually make the slightest bit of difference whether you use 24 or 32 bit to actually transport the data around as the dynamic range of these parts is nowhere near the limit of 24 bit and it will just expand to 32 bit internally to do it's processing. 121dB/127dB of dynamic range is a good chunk but it still doesn't get close to the 144dB dynamic range that 24 bit allows so we just allow the chip to truncate the range before transmission to avoid wasting cycles (and driver overhead), having to use higher data transmission rates internally (more chance of crosstalk causing noise coupling or EMI issues) shuffling around 70 odd dB of noise (32 bit is 192dB of dynamic range in fixed point). The 32 bit is only used for processing anyway and your DAW will already do all of it's processing in 32 or 64 bit regardless.

TLDR While we could in theory stream in 32 bit, our USB implementation streams in 24 bit to minimise driver overhead because actually transporting the data in 32 bit would make no difference at all except possibly give you a bit more latency.

Cheers,

Ed
Old 3rd August 2019
  #194
Gear Nut
 
Bodhifile's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by machdisk View Post
Hi Bodhifile, This is one of those slightly misleading bits of marketing that converter manufacturers use to make their tech look better. A 32 bit DAC is just a very nice 6 bit sigma delta DAC with 32 bit internal filtering. It doesn't actually make the slightest bit of difference whether you use 24 or 32 bit to actually transport the data around as the dynamic range of these parts is nowhere near the limit of 24 bit and it will just expand to 32 bit internally to do it's processing. 121dB/127dB of dynamic range is a good chunk but it still doesn't get close to the 144dB dynamic range that 24 bit allows so we just allow the chip to truncate the range before transmission to avoid wasting cycles (and driver overhead), having to use higher data transmission rates internally (more chance of crosstalk causing noise coupling or EMI issues) shuffling around 70 odd dB of noise (32 bit is 192dB of dynamic range in fixed point). The 32 bit is only used for processing anyway and your DAW will already do all of it's processing in 32 or 64 bit regardless.

TLDR While we could in theory stream in 32 bit, our USB implementation streams in 24 bit to minimise driver overhead because actually transporting the data in 32 bit would make no difference at all except possibly give you a bit more latency.

Cheers,

Ed
Thanks Ed, it's just that 24-bit dithering is then recommended from 32/64-bit floating point> 24-bit (usb stream/playback/DA/AD). I understand what you're saying about the dynamic range though.
Old 4th August 2019
  #195
Gear Addict
 

Manual

Hello Cranborne Team,
i got a call from my dealer about the soon advent of the little ADAT box so when do you plan publishing the manual.....
I really need the manual ;-)
Best
Old 4th August 2019
  #196
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mutetourettes's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by machdisk View Post
It doesn't actually make the slightest bit of difference
Old 14th August 2019
  #197
Here for the gear
I want to expand imagination with reading the manual.
Probably everyone thinks so
Old 15th August 2019
  #198
Quote:
Originally Posted by INARI View Post
I want to expand imagination with reading the manual.
Probably everyone thinks so
I know we promised we would do this a couple months ago - only reason we haven't posted it yet is we are waiting to chronicle how the USB drivers install and we can't 'sign' our USB driver yet as our Driver Signing Certificate is in the final stage of verification. We're always waiting for someone who isn't us!

In the mean time, I hope this gives you a bit of excitement. For anyone who pre-ordered already, one of these units in the picture is probably yours!

Sooooooooooooooooooonnnn!!!!! Cheers all!
Attached Thumbnails
Updates on Cranborne Audio Camden 500, 500R8, 500ADAT - Test Drive Mojo!-img-20190815-wa0007.jpg  
Old 4 weeks ago
  #199
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Quetz's Avatar


Old 3 weeks ago
  #200
Gear Nut
 
Bodhifile's Avatar
good things come to those who wait ...
ordering soon ...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #201
Here for the gear
guys! it's almost there!
manual and driver available in here
https://www.cranborne-audio.com/500r8
Old 3 weeks ago
  #202
Quote:
Originally Posted by INARI View Post
guys! it's almost there!
manual and driver available in here
https://www.cranborne-audio.com/500r8
Tech specs look impressive.

Couldn't see latency specs anywhere though?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #203
Hi All!

Some of you will have seen the newsletter we sent earlier this week announcing that we shipped the first 500R8 and 500ADAT pre-orders with more coming this week and next.

Others of you would have seen Quetz's very exciting Gearslutz post "500R8 has landed!!!" post which some very sexy pictures of his unboxing and setup experience:
Cranborne Audio 500R8 has landed!!

So yes - we have begun to start shipping units! You may be wondering why we haven't made more of a "thing" about this so far - that's because we have a lot of orders (thanks everyone!!!!) and it's still going to take a while to assemble units, test them, box them, and then ship these out to our distributors and retailers around the world to all of you and we don't want to give you false expectations on timings. "Now Shipping!" can mean many different things. To us "Now Widely Available" is the big announcement that we'd like to make, which is once we have pre-orders all satisfied and all or most of our distributors and retailers with stock ready to ship should any other you place an order on the day. We are still a few weeks away from this and working as fast as possible to get units assembled, tested, boxed, and shipped our across the world.

What I would say is we are already almost sold out of our first production batch (awesome problem for us to have! but a problem nonetheless) so if any of you were hoping to get your unit soon - I would strongly recommend you a place an order now. If you do this, you should get a 500R8/500ADAT by September. Anyone who has had a pre-order in place, like Quetz and many others here, you will get your units before any stocking orders or new orders are fulfilled, regardless of where you are in the world (UK, US, France, Finland, Canada, etc). A lot of you have been very patient and really supportive and lovely so we want to make sure you get yours first!

If anyone has any questions about the final units, please feel free to fire away. I'll be happy to answer anything.

Before I answer Inari's and TEMAS's questions. Just a quick FYI for you all - Version 0.9 software of 500R8 currently has a limit on channel count at 192kHz and doesn't have S/PDIF enabled. We will have a software update coming that will enable S/PDIF (we know the hardware works just fine!) and the full channel count at 192kHz. There are just some complicated things on the USB driver side to facilitate the full channel count (multiple end points or high bandwidth endpoints, but compatibility with CoreAudio and ASIO is a tricky thing here we are working on) and some firmware rejigging to get the S/PDIF working as we envision it should (rather than going through the full XMOS stack, we want to do a direct data stream so it's lowest latency possible, but requires a lot more work!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by INARI View Post
guys! it's almost there!
manual and driver available in here
https://www.cranborne-audio.com/500r8
Indeed Inari! Sorry for the delays to the manual. But all good now! Feel free to read away and bung any questions that spring to mind our way!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TEMAS View Post
Tech specs look impressive.

Couldn't see latency specs anywhere though?
Thanks for the kind words on the tech specs TEMAS! We weren't lying when we said the converter performance we planned on achieving. And if any of you are Sound on Sound readers, the 500R8 was reviewed by Matt Houghton and Hugh Robjohns in the Sept 2019 issue of SOS that was just published. In the review, Hugh validated all of our specs independently. Here's the relevant bit of the review:

Quote:
Testing the A-D converter, I confirmed that the analogue-digital alignment is +4dBu = -20dBFS, this being the standard SMPTE alignment. So a full scale digital signal requires +24dBu at the analogue inputs.

The high-end of the frequency response is obviously determined by the sample rate, while the low end measured -1dB at 7Hz, and the -3dB point was around 3Hz — although I suspect the true figures are actually a little lower, because this was running up against the limitations of my AP test set; Cranborne claim -1dB at 2Hz and -3 and 1.2Hz.

Total harmonic distortion measured an excellent 0.00027 percent (ref +4dBu), while the THD+N figure was 0.0014 percent (same reference) which equates to -99dB A-wtd and is the same as the signal-to-noise figure (96.6dB unweighted). Here again, I was brushing against the limits of what is measurable with my AP system!

Intermodulation distortion measured 0.0018 percent using the SMPTE format, while crosstalk measured an impressive -115dB at both 1kHz and 10kHz.

Assessing the A-D converter’s dynamic range performance using the AES17 method delivered a result of 119.4dB A-wtd —that’s a good result, on a par with the Prism Lyra 2, Eventide H9000, and Apogee Symphony

Moving to the D-A side of things, the analogue/digital alignment is the same (-20dBFS = +4dBu), of course. The THD figure came out at 0.0003 percent
(ref -20dBFS), while the THD+N figure was 0.0014 percent again — these figures are the same as for the A-D. IMD measured 0.001 percent (SMPTE) and the signal-to-noise ratio came out at 97.8dB. Crosstalk was fractionally poorer, but still excellent at -105.3dB for both 1kHz and 10kHz. The AES17 dynamic range figure was even better at 120.7dB A-wtd, placing it against the likes of the RME ADI-2 (DAC and Pro), the Lynx Hilo, and the Antelope Eclipse 384. Again, the high-end of the frequency response is set by the sample rate, but the low end measured -1dB at 2Hz.

The monitor section headphone driver was able to deliver a maximum output level of +22dBu (9.9Vrms), and there is enough gain in the system to achieve that with a -20dBFS return from the DAW, so there’s plenty of headphone volume available! At full blast, headphones like the Sennheiser HD650s or AKG K702s would be putting out about 124dB SPL.
As for latency specs - this is tough because it depends on the computer's juice, the USB bus, the sample rate, etc. As as example with the Sound on Sound review, Hugh was only able to get a 64 sample buffer depth on his computer because the AP software is quite intense on CPU load. Whereas Matt was able to get 32 samples no problem on his Mac. Here is the relevant bit from the SOS review:

Hugh's test:
Quote:
All DAW signal paths were set to unity gain and all tests made with the system running at 44.1kHz and a 64-sample buffer (the lowest stable setting I could operate in my system)... I also took the opportunity to measure the
latency from analogue input to analogue output via the DAW. With the ASIO buffer set to 64 samples at a 44.1kHz sample rate this was 5.64ms. This broadly agrees with the driver’s own calculations, which it gave the input latency at 130 samples (2.95ms), and output latency of 110 samples (2.49ms).
Whereas Matt found the following:
Quote:
if you’re on a Mac as I was during the review period (2018 MacBook Pro running MacOS 10.14.1, connected via a Mokin USB-C hub) or iOS, it’s recognised automatically as a Core Audio device, and configuration is via the OS’s Audio & MIDI Settings app... the latency performance was subjectively good too, and that impression was again backed up by the measurements in Hugh’s Technical Performance box. (I managed to achieve stable performance
on my Mac with a 32-sample buffer at 48kHz.)

Of course, for many users the latency question will largely be moot, since they can use the analogue mixing and monitoring facilities when tracking; it will be of more interest to those who play virtual instruments ‘live’
The bolding I added is my emphasis as latency is critically important, as you know, when you are tracking and you need to provide monitoring for artists. But as Matt points out in the review, our suggested approach for users is to use the analogue summing bus and artist headphone mix facilities we put on the 500R8/500ADAT. You don't get more "zero-latency" than good old analogue monitoring

Adding to this discussion on latency and buffer depth, anecdotally @ Ells was a long-time UA Apollo user and his huge tracking/mixing projects that would be unstable at anything less than a 1024 buffer depth on his UA Apollo, were stable at 128 buffer depth with the 500R8 and it's lightweight/optimised USB driver.

Hope that helps answer the latency question? Anything you'd request us to include with in the specs bearing in mind that above what we said about computer performance, etc?

Thanks so much guys! Can't wait til you get your 500R8s and 500ADATs in your hand. We think it was worth the wait - I absolutely love mine and it has transformed my hybrid workflow!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #204
Awesome info. Me thinks I will be buying a PDF of that article as soon as it comes out.

Cheers

(edit: I just bought the PDF).

Last edited by TEMAS; 3 weeks ago at 02:40 PM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #205
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karpmentalise View Post
Hi All!

If anyone has any questions about the final units, please feel free to fire away. I'll be happy to answer anything.

Indeed Inari! Sorry for the delays to the manual. But all good now! Feel free to read away and bung any questions that spring to mind our way!

Thanks so much guys! Can't wait til you get your 500R8s and 500ADATs in your hand. We think it was worth the wait - I absolutely love mine and it has transformed my hybrid workflow!
I've an R8 on pre-order w/ Front End Audio here in the States & am looking forward to moving from an all ITB mixing workflow to hybrid & trying to imagine how my workflow will go.

I've read in earlier threads that it is not possible to sum 8 channels while also using any of the modules for bus processing of the summed audio & that if we want to do it all in one pass, we have to sacrifice 2 channels so sum 6 channels into say an onboard stereo compressor. And that you guys actually recommend exporting the final mix in 2 passes, 1 to sum the audio & another to process the summed stereo mix. Do I have that right?

If yes, that's a little inconvenient but in the interest of turning lemons into lemonade, is there any reason why we couldn't or wouldn't want to use any open channels on that 2nd pass for additional stereo summing? Assuming the 1st pass stereo mix requires 2 channels + another 2 channels for a buss compressor, is there anything loss in the summing arena by adding 2 more stereo stems on the remaining 4 channels to be summed w/ the 1st past summed stereo mix?

Would there be decreased benefit in stereo imaging, depth, etc? Are the benefits of summing accrued only if the channels are summed simultaneously?

Thanks for being so available on these forums & looking forward to this box!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #206
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkdvb View Post
I've read in earlier threads that it is not possible to sum 8 channels while also using any of the modules for bus processing of the summed audio & that if we want to do it all in one pass, we have to sacrifice 2 channels so sum 6 channels into say an onboard stereo compressor. And that you guys actually recommend exporting the final mix in 2 passes, 1 to sum the audio & another to process the summed stereo mix. Do I have that right?

If yes, that's a little inconvenient but in the interest of turning lemons into lemonade, is there any reason why we couldn't or wouldn't want to use any open channels on that 2nd pass for additional stereo summing? Assuming the 1st pass stereo mix requires 2 channels + another 2 channels for a buss compressor, is there anything loss in the summing arena by adding 2 more stereo stems on the remaining 4 channels to be summed w/ the 1st past summed stereo mix?

Would there be decreased benefit in stereo imaging, depth, etc? Are the benefits of summing accrued only if the channels are summed simultaneously?

Thanks for being so available on these forums & looking forward to this box!
Awesome mkdvb! If you have had your pre-order in place then you will be among the first to get your units in the US. Stock should get to our US retailers by end of next week.

As for your Qs - Yeah there's only 8 slots so if you wanted to use 2 for master bus processing (just use a jack out of the Mix Outputs and into 2 slots) then you'd only be able to use 6 slots for contributions into the master bus and 2 slots for master bus processing.

And there are no inserts on the master bus, which would be the other way to get master bus processing, but there's no physical room on the unit for that! Also we use unbalanced inserts on the slots, many people would want balanced inserts on the master bus so now you need dedicated sends/returns which is even more impossible! But when we thought about this during the design phase, given our conversion and analogue quality, there's no reason you can't just do another pass. Record the stereo mix, then send it back out again. Then you can use all 8 slots to process the master bus by using the chain switches, etc. So much more powerful! The dynamic range of 24-bit recording is 120dB (theoretically 144dB but there's no real-world applications that can achieve this as there's loads of other limiting factors in the analogue domain, converters, etc). Our signal to noise ratio is 121dB and THD+N 110dB so you really aren't losing anything.

As for summing more stuff together after summing the mix once already - absolutely no issue with doing this. Again our summing mixer is so phase coherent, low noise, and transparent that you can do this without affecting the audio - including the imaging, depth, etc. Good question though! As many mix busses with have a higher noise floor, more phase shift, or more distortion where it would start to affect it.

Cheers mkdvb!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #207
I am thinking my solution to this might be to have a separate device to capture the output from the mix bus. So I would have 8 channels going via USB to DAW for times when tracking up to 8 sources, then feed the mix bus via outboard and into a secondary interface for extra high quality 2 track recording of either one stereo recording or a mix.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #208
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEMAS View Post
I am thinking my solution to this might be to have a separate device to capture the output from the mix bus. So I would have 8 channels going via USB to DAW for times when tracking up to 8 sources, then feed the mix bus via outboard and into a secondary interface for extra high quality 2 track recording of either one stereo recording or a mix.
Like a 500ADAT connected to the 500R8? Then you can have 14 slots and the 2 channels for the master bus
Old 3 weeks ago
  #209
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkdvb View Post
I've an R8 on pre-order w/ Front End Audio here in the States & am looking forward to moving from an all ITB mixing workflow to hybrid & trying to imagine how my workflow will go.

I've read in earlier threads that it is not possible to sum 8 channels while also using any of the modules for bus processing of the summed audio & that if we want to do it all in one pass, we have to sacrifice 2 channels so sum 6 channels into say an onboard stereo compressor. And that you guys actually recommend exporting the final mix in 2 passes, 1 to sum the audio & another to process the summed stereo mix. Do I have that right?

If yes, that's a little inconvenient but in the interest of turning lemons into lemonade, is there any reason why we couldn't or wouldn't want to use any open channels on that 2nd pass for additional stereo summing? Assuming the 1st pass stereo mix requires 2 channels + another 2 channels for a buss compressor, is there anything loss in the summing arena by adding 2 more stereo stems on the remaining 4 channels to be summed w/ the 1st past summed stereo mix?

Would there be decreased benefit in stereo imaging, depth, etc? Are the benefits of summing accrued only if the channels are summed simultaneously?

Thanks for being so available on these forums & looking forward to this box!
[email protected],

Awesome to hear that you're on the list to grab a 500R8 soon! Looking forward to hearing what you think!

If you plan on summing 8 tracks (4 stereo stems) into a stereo track using 500R8's summing mixer then you cannot apply additional processing over that stereo mix before it reaches the built-in Mix Bus converters on USB channels 9/10.

The first 8 converters/USB io channels are tied to the 8x500 series slots themselves, and each of those slots are tied to the summing mixer channels. Whilst we could have detached the summing mixer and 500 series slots in 500R8's design, allowing you to sum 8 channels and process the stereo mix with free modules, our summing mixer is extremely clean (<0.0007% @ +23dBu (-1dBFS), 1kHz) and we are relying on the slots themselves - and the modules within them - to add that sound to the mix. It would have been cool if we squeezed in 10 slots into this box for 8 channel summing and 2 channel processing, that would have required a new 21" rack-mount standard - not sure that would take off!

We would have liked to have added an insert point on the stereo mix bus so that you can apply stereo mix bus processing from 19" gear or similar, but as you can see form the back panel, we run out of room!

Splitting the process into two parts is a good way to go - sum those 8 stems into 2, and then apply stereo processing on a second pass. Our converters are very clean (completely inaudible THD when running from DAC to ADC and their frequency response goes down to below 1Hz!) and we have designed them so that you can do multiple passes without the fear of adding noise and THD. I understand your trepidation on losing sound quality when doing this with other interfaces, but with converter specs and clocking specs like ours, there is really no harm in it - and we designed it for this use case exactly!

I know this is an extra step. Time is money! But this way you can use your 8 inserted modules for the summing processes (8 into 2) and then re-use your existing tasty 500 series modules for the master processing on a second pass without having to have 10 pieces of gear to do the whole lot in one go. From a patching perspective, it's as easy as flicking a switch beneath the 500 series slots. From my experience too, it's nice to have that 'undo' so that you can revert back to the 'pre mastered' take (I often over-egg the bus compression in all of my excitiment ).

As far as I am concerned, there are no real rules when it comes to analogue summing. Many would argue that applying processing on everything (like a bus compressor across the whole mix) is the only way to go, but on certain tracks, I've found that it's sometimes nice to sum+apply bus compression on the rhythm section and then add the vocals in parallel on a second sum (or with a slightly different compression ratio) just to keep that separation between the instrument groups.


Hope that helps mate! We just love chatting about all gear to be honest. The fact that you want to talk about the gear we designed is just a bonus!!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karpmentalise View Post
Like a 500ADAT connected to the 500R8? Then you can have 14 slots and the 2 channels for the master bus
I just re-read the manual and had another idea for how to connect outboard to the mix bus instead of having an insert on the mix bus (once the s/pdif I/O is operational):

500R8 Mix bus out > Outboard > A/D converter > 500R8 s/pdif in > DAW (via USB)
DAW (via USB) > 500R8 s/pdif out > D/A converter > 500R8 DAW 2 Input > Monitors

Would this work?

Last edited by TEMAS; 3 weeks ago at 07:31 PM..
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