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OK then-What major artists/bands today DON'T use vocal pitch correction!? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 23rd April 2018
  #121
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Congratulations!

Alistair
Thanks - I got a cute one
Old 23rd April 2018
  #122
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Wow! The lead singer of the DMA's has a beautiful 1st Tenor voice.

Wait a minute... Was that 441 REALLY used on the recordings?

Along with what's been discussed...

I think a constructive/helpful use of pitch correction (for a singer), is to make a "tuned" version of an otherwise challenging song to practice with.
We're assuming that the singer is singing in proper keys for their voice type.

Then when the singer finally nails it, then it's back to the studio/stage with it.

FWIW as a singer, I'm at the tech level of a strong Pop singer (stays in key/good interpretive ability). But technically below a skilled Jazz or Classical recital singer
-let alone a trained Opera singer.

For the songs I sing, am trying to keep improving at what the Italian Opera singers called "Chiascuro" (Light/Dark contrast of vocal shadings), and vocal agility. Am very influenced by Sinatra's classic recordings and his Bel Canto-
"without making a point of it"-as Frank once said.

I suppose I could use EQ more often "creatively" (like I already do with microphones & reverb), to experiment, in order to help discover some "new tones" within a vocal line. Hmm...

Congrats on the new baby!

Chris
Old 23rd April 2018
  #123
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I don't get the focus on pitch correction. It's simply a tool, use it or don't.

From a consumer's point of view do I like songs with pitch correction on the vocals? Sometimes, it depends on the song... same as any other arbitrary tool in the production process.

You might as well say I don't think people should use a compressor on the vocal, it alters the natural dynamic of a vocalist; I don't think people should use reverb, it alters the natural space of the recording; I don't think people should punch-in on recordings, it alters the true performance of the musicians; I don't think people should use electric guitar, it alters the acoustic nature of the instrument; I don't think people should use multitrack recording, it allows you to record songs that can't be performed live etc. etc. etc.

Sometimes a great single or record can be recorded and mixed in no time at all with little or no manipulation, sometimes a great single or record can be recorded and mixed over a very long time with layers of different manipulations. That's true for modern music or for music from 50 years ago.

So what? Is it a great record, yes or no?
Old 23rd April 2018
  #124
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On Roseanne singing the National Anthem... PLEASE use Autotune!

See, I'm open to some exceptions.

Chris
Old 23rd April 2018
  #125
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It sounds feckin dreadful. I think the first time I heard it was a cher record. The only place for auto tunes is comedy youtube vids or really extreme weirdness.
Old 23rd April 2018
  #126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusss View Post
It sounds feckin dreadful. I think the first time I heard it was a cher record. The only place for auto tunes is comedy youtube vids or really extreme weirdness.
Sigh. You’re talking of the “Autotune effect”. Not tuning.

Please get with the program!
Old 23rd April 2018
  #127
Haha yes he does, and the video is 100% live. There’s a tiny bit of editing on the piano in places, but the vast majority of it is unedited - and yes it’s a 441!

I get what you’re saying re improvement but a) even with that, a singer isn’t going to sing pop-right - that aesthetic is the sound of tuning and b) I’m there to make a record, not be a vocal coach. If a producer quotes for a song production and the singer wants to redo the vocal once they’ve practiced purely so they can say they didn’t use tuning - fine, but someone needs to pay an extra rate for that time. In an ideal world we’d all be able to accomodate that, but in the real world we have to be realistic.

That’s different to redoing something ‘cos it’s not good!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
Wow! The lead singer of the DMA's has a beautiful 1st Tenor voice.

Wait a minute... Was that 441 REALLY used on the recordings?

Along with what's been discussed...

I think a constructive/helpful use of pitch correction (for a singer), is to make a "tuned" version of an otherwise challenging song to practice with.
We're assuming that the singer is singing in proper keys for their voice type.

Then when the singer finally nails it, then it's back to the studio/stage with it.

FWIW as a singer, I'm at the tech level of a strong Pop singer (stays in key/good interpretive ability). But technically below a skilled Jazz or Classical recital singer
-let alone a trained Opera singer.

For the songs I sing, am trying to keep improving at what the Italian Opera singers called "Chiascuro" (Light/Dark contrast of vocal shadings), and vocal agility. Am very influenced by Sinatra's classic recordings and his Bel Canto-
"without making a point of it"-as Frank once said.

I suppose I could use EQ more often "creatively" (like I already do with microphones & reverb), to experiment, in order to help discover some "new tones" within a vocal line. Hmm...

Congrats on the new baby!

Chris
Old 23rd April 2018
  #128
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Tom from DMAs - Aussie band doing very well in the UK at the moment - he was surprisingly awesome - DMAs get Oasis comparisons, but they actually have someone who can sing!
I don't think Thom Yorke is so much "singing" (or even trying to) as he's playing a part, and the voice is the one inhabiting the recurring character. He's kind of invented his own category, in the same way people like Lou Reed and Leonard Cohen did.
Old 23rd April 2018
  #129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I don't think Thom Yorke is so much "singing" (or even trying to) as he's playing a part, and the voice is the one inhabiting the recurring character. He's kind of invented his own category, in the same way people like Lou Reed and Leonard Cohen did.
I'd agree but I don't think I mentioned Radiohead

I was referring to Oasis - Liam sounds ok on record, but I saw him fronting Beady Eye live, and I don't think I've ever heard such a bad performance from a supposedly established band!
Old 23rd April 2018
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I'd agree but I don't think I mentioned Radiohead
Half awake -- duh.

Quote:
I was referring to Oasis - Liam sounds ok on record, but I saw him fronting Beady Eye live, and I don't think I've ever heard such a bad performance from a supposedly established band!
Hm. Never heard Beady Eye but I saw Oasis twice and he was brilliant both times. But that was back then; you can do a lot of damage to yourself in 20 years.
Old 23rd April 2018
  #131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Half awake -- duh.



Hm. Never heard Beady Eye but I saw Oasis twice and he was brilliant both times. But that was back then; you can do a lot of damage to yourself in 20 years.
Beady Eye are like Oasis without the good bits ie the songs and the solid drumming (and the aforementioned frontman about 15 years past his best)!
Old 23rd April 2018
  #132
RE: Liam. You can be in such a bad mood as to not feel like trying, or you can have terrible monitors - it happens.

I'm not a fan of Radiohead either, but I thought they were known as a great vocal band in their early years. Obviously in the last ten years or so the vocals have been more like a drunken drone. As mentioned, it's a character, or a vibe they are going for.
Personally, I don't get it.
Old 23rd April 2018
  #133
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Beady Eye are like Oasis without the good bits ie the songs and the solid drumming (and the aforementioned frontman about 15 years past his best)!
I guess it's incentivizing to have a brother in the band who thoroughly resents you.
Old 23rd April 2018
  #134
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
RE: Liam. You can be in such a bad mood as to not feel like trying, or you can have terrible monitors - it happens.
I'm sure the monitoring wasn't great (was at Glastonbury) but it wasn't just Liam - the whole band were sloppy to the point of amateurism!

Could just have been the setting, but I saw Kaiser Chiefs in the same slot the previous year and they were very tight and put on a great show (I'm not a huge fan or anything there but was pleasantly surprised!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I guess it's incentivizing to have a brother in the band who thoroughly resents you.
High Flying Bird (Noel's current band) on the other hand have put out one of the best retro-flavoured updated records I've heard in recent years, helped by our own Toolskid!
Old 23rd April 2018
  #135
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post


Don't know if you can see this outside Aus - live session by DMA's.

There's one "tuned" note here....and the performance is actually a comp of two (I think there's about 3 edits in total?).

The tuning was to keep the best performance in context (ie they liked the way the rest of the performance sounded), and the comping for the same reason.

Totally justified in the result as far as I'm concerned.

(oh and mixed on headphones due to recent arrival of new baby, meaning I was technically on paternity leave!)
Very nice! Great to hear young artists who have good material and can perform it! OT but what headphones do you mix with? In the market for a good mixing set.
Old 23rd April 2018
  #136
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
These "debates" always focus on whether whatever anyone says is a fact or an opinion...maybe that doesn't matter.
Actually I think it is pretty much the only thing that really matters and the only reason most of these threads last so long. If people would simply state their preference, then some might agree, others might not, but there would be no heated arguments. Only discussions. It is when people present their purely subjective taste based opinions as fact that things get heated up.

Not only that but in this age of fake news, addressing this disconnect from reality is IMO more important than ever and should be done every time someone fails to recognize their preferences or opinions as just that, opinions or preferences.

Quote:
Even if someone states something as an opinion, someone else will argue it down with their opinion as if they are truly right and not just stating another opinion that is no better or worse.
I don't believe that to be true. If I state that my favourite colour is purple with a touch of green, I doubt anyone would argue with that. Others might state they have other preferences but again, nothing to get heated up about.

If someone does start arguing about my (or your) favourite colour, they are making the exact same mistake as I am trying to address here and it should then also be addressed but usually that is not what happens. See below.

Quote:
As far as facts go, is it a fact that far more people are fixing the pitch of vocals far more than they used to? It seems like a fact to me. Is that a good thing? I guess.
Yes it is a fact. Is it a good thing? I don't think it is a value based thing in the first place so I don't think value based judgements get us anywhere. Does it serve a purpose? Are there other means to achieve the same result? Are they as effective? As efficient? Are there audible artefacts? Etc. Those are all relevant questions. Whether it is right or wrong is IMO the wrong question because the answer is always "It depends".

[quote]The thing I wonder, as all manner of fixing and auto-things gets easier and easier, is where, if anywhere, do the people who defend this stuff vociferously draw the line.[/quiote]

This is exactly the type of reality distortion that I object to. This thread spawned from another thread in which the OP made it very clear that they were vociferously against tuning. They assumed it was a bad thing to do. The rest of that thread are just people trying to inject a bit of reality back into the discussion. NOT the other way round.

As for drawing a line? No, there is no line. I don't see the point in arbitrarily limiting oneself like that.

Quote:
I joked about auto-engineer...if engineers start relying on computers more and more to fix their errors, that's good, right? Use ear and skill less, use computers more. That's a good thing, right?
It is neither good nor bad. Those are the wrong questions but here again your phrasing reveals, IMO, a disconnect with reality. First engineers are not fixing their errors when they use tuning software. (Assuming they are even fixing. These days tuning effects are just as much part of the sonic landscape as anything else. It is just a question of taste whether one likes that or not).

More importantly, you assume that one uses ears or skill less because we have modern technology to play with. Anyone tuning vocals that wants any half decent results is listening! You can't do it without listening!

Also computers allow us to do all sorts of stuff that isn't even possible without them. Just as with any new technology, it just opens up all sorts of new possibilities. It is up to the artists/producers/engineers to make use of that in creative ways.

Alistair
Old 23rd April 2018
  #137
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Timothy Lawler's Avatar
 

Anyone know about pitch correction re Jason Mraz?
Old 23rd April 2018
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Actually I think it is pretty much the only thing that really matters and the only reason most of these threads last so long. If people would simply state their preference, then some might agree, others might not, but there would be no heated arguments. Only discussions. It is when people present their purely subjective taste based opinions as fact that things get heated up.
I don't see why that bothers people. Almost everything everyone says including you is mostly opinion that could be interpreted as being presented as fact. I also disagree that that's the reason these debates "heat" up. I think it has more to do with personal comments. Otherwise, it's all completely harmless.

Quote:
Not only that but in this age of fake news, addressing this disconnect from reality is IMO more important than ever and should be done every time someone fails to recognize their preferences or opinions as just that, opinions or preferences.
Something ironic about that, this concern for reality.

Quote:
Yes it is a fact.
So it is a fact...or at least you agree with me, that people are tuning things more than they used to....

so in that regard, it is different than what people did before...which is something people always say...it's no different. Seems a fact, that if people do something more and in a different way....it's not the same, it's different, and that difference may be important to some people.

Quote:
This is exactly the type of reality distortion that I object to. This thread spawned from another thread in which the OP made it very clear that they were vociferously against tuning. They assumed it was a bad thing to do. The rest of that thread are just people trying to inject a bit of reality back into the discussion. NOT the other way round.
What I said is a reality distortion? I asked where people who are defending tuning draw the line. Why is that so horrible and a distortion of reality?

It was put forth "the greatest vocalists" were all being tuned just like now back in 1968...without knowing exactly who what, where, when, things like that seems like a potentially worse distortion of reality then what I asked.

Quote:
As for drawing a line? No, there is no line. I don't see the point in arbitrarily limiting oneself like that.
Okay, so no line for you then, anything goes. Most people seem to have a line, even the ones that promote tuning. I don't think it's bad to have a line, and I don't consider it necessarily limiting.

Quote:
It is neither good nor bad. Those are the wrong questions but here again your phrasing reveals, IMO, a disconnect with reality. First engineers are not fixing their errors when they use tuning software. (Assuming they are even fixing. These days tuning effects are just as much part of the sonic landscape as anything else. It is just a question of taste whether one likes that or not).

More importantly, you assume that one uses ears or skill less because we have modern technology to play with. Anyone tuning vocals that wants any half decent results is listening! You can't do it without listening!

Also computers allow us to do all sorts of stuff that isn't even possible without them. Just as with any new technology, it just opens up all sorts of new possibilities. It is up to the artists/producers/engineers to make use of that in creative ways.
You're missing the point and distorting what I'm asking. Sure people can use anything in "creative" ways if they want. They also can and do use tools to fix "errors" all the time, some using their ears more than others, that's mostly what this is about, fixing errors and the degree to which it's done. My question is about tools that could and will come along that fix the engineers work instead of the artists. Just a weird hypothetical . I always get the feeling that while fixing artists is harmless, normal, necessary and customary...an engineer using a mere preset is a bum. Get it?
Old 24th April 2018
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dights View Post

You might as well say I don't think people should use a compressor on the vocal, it alters the natural dynamic of a vocalist;
I think there were many discussions about the loudness wars and overuse of limiting.

In that respect, this seems the same sort of discussion.

Also, I think listeners know about autotune...it's sort of a symbol...sort of like athletes using steroids. Other studio manipulations aren't generally that big a deal. Even drums being mercilessly edited, I don't think most listeners care about that at all. A machine is fine. So it's up to drummers to keep that alive for their own thrill really. Singing is what most people relate to, so it seems somewhat more important.
Old 24th April 2018
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dights View Post
I don't get the focus on pitch correction. It's simply a tool, use it or don't.

From a consumer's point of view do I like songs with pitch correction on the vocals? Sometimes, it depends on the song... same as any other arbitrary tool in the production process.

You might as well say I don't think people should use a compressor on the vocal, it alters the natural dynamic of a vocalist; I don't think people should use reverb, it alters the natural space of the recording; I don't think people should punch-in on recordings, it alters the true performance of the musicians; I don't think people should use electric guitar, it alters the acoustic nature of the instrument; I don't think people should use multitrack recording, it allows you to record songs that can't be performed live etc. etc. etc.
Also, I do think there's a difference in that usually a decent singer or musician generally sounds good without any of that stuff. It's not really necessary.

A pitchy singer will not really sound very good without the pitches being fixed.
Old 24th April 2018
  #141
Quote:
Originally Posted by tymish View Post
Very nice! Great to hear young artists who have good material and can perform it! OT but what headphones do you mix with? In the market for a good mixing set.
HD600s...driven by the MacBook Pro audio out (I’d normally run an Apollo but aforementioned small child invasion meant it’s hard to work in my little home setup so I was on the kitchen table!).

It has been mastered...but it didn’t change things much.
Old 24th April 2018
  #142
js1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler View Post
Anyone know about pitch correction re Jason Mraz?
I don't know if it gets used on record, but there's a guy that doesn't need it. Scary accurate pitch when I've seen him live.
Old 24th April 2018
  #143
Gear Maniac
But seriously folks.. LOL.. is this maybe too much?

Peavey XR-AT 9-channel 1500W Powered Mixer with Auto-Tune | Sweetwater
Old 25th April 2018
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tymish View Post
But seriously folks.. LOL.. is this maybe too much?

Peavey XR-AT 9-channel 1500W Powered Mixer with Auto-Tune | Sweetwater


Nothing is ever too much.

you also get Antares' world-famous Auto-Tune pitch correction technology, ensuring that you get smooth-sounding, perfectly-tuned vocals time after time (at Sweetwater, we've been rocking Auto-Tune since 1997).

Antares should come up with a technology wherein you surgically insert Autotune straight into your vocal chords. One day....
Old 25th April 2018
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
I think there were many discussions about the loudness wars and overuse of limiting.

In that respect, this seems the same sort of discussion.

Also, I think listeners know about autotune...it's sort of a symbol...sort of like athletes using steroids. Other studio manipulations aren't generally that big a deal. Even drums being mercilessly edited, I don't think most listeners care about that at all. A machine is fine. So it's up to drummers to keep that alive for their own thrill really. Singing is what most people relate to, so it seems somewhat more important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
Also, I do think there's a difference in that usually a decent singer or musician generally sounds good without any of that stuff. It's not really necessary.

A pitchy singer will not really sound very good without the pitches being fixed.
I think you're missing my point. What you've said is totally subjective.

For me all of the examples I suggested can manipulate and affect a performance or recording just as much using pitch correction.

My point is who cares?

I don't think a record is great because it does or doesn't have pitch correction, or multi-tracking, or vocal editing, or compression, or digital reverb, or electric guitar, or sequenced drums etc.
Old 25th April 2018
  #146
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Or whether the singer can really sing...
(sorry-couldn't resist!)

I realize there are some grey areas-besides my hair! Chris
Old 25th April 2018
  #147
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bambamboom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
Regarding Timberlake:

During the pre-stem stage we also tune the vocals using [Celemony] Melodyne or sometimes [Antares] Auto-Tune. It's not so much to get Justin's vocals in tune, because he's right on the money when he sings , but more because using Melodyne slightly sharpens and brightens all the vocal harmonies.
I laughed so hard when I read that that my drink just came out my nose!
Old 25th April 2018
  #148
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Thanks. That's my impression of Mraz also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by js1 View Post
I don't know if it gets used on record, but there's a guy that doesn't need it. Scary accurate pitch when I've seen him live.
Old 25th April 2018
  #149
Gear Guru
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamboom View Post
I laughed so hard when I read that that my drink just came out my nose!
What's so funny?
Old 25th April 2018
  #150
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
What's so funny?
Oh, nothing, really.

(We're not laughing AT you; we're just laughing AROUND you.)
.
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