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Its your converters, definitely Audio Interfaces
Old 30th March 2018
  #91
See this is why Robert Johnson's music hasn't stood the test of time...because he didn't have thousands of dollars worth of converters, playa.

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Old 30th March 2018
  #92
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
Nobody blames him for trying to help, but a few very bold untrue statements are made which are being debunked by others.
It makes me doubt everything he is saying, including his biographical and business history claims.

"Help" that is incorrect can be worse that no help at all. For example, sometimes it is better to wait for the paramedics to come and check out your side pain than to let the town drunk perform an emergency appendectomy on you. The fact that he thinks he is "helping" has nothing to do with whether or not he really is helping. Or whether or not your even need an appendectomy.

Quote:
The internet is already full of false information, some of it is hard to recognize. A thread like this does not contribute to clarity (pun intended).
exactly

Quote:
Originally Posted by liv4ree
No harm, no foul.
If some Newbie reading this thread misapplies his budget to stupid choices because of the OP's "bold" (but untrue statements), there certainly very well might be harm.
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Old 30th March 2018
  #93
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
It makes me doubt everything he is saying, including his biographical and business history claims.

"Help" that is incorrect can be worse that no help at all. For example, sometimes it is better to wait for the paramedics to come and check out your side pain than to let the town drunk perform an emergency appendectomy on you. The fact that he thinks he is "helping" has nothing to do with whether or not he really is helping. Or whether or not your even need an appendectomy.


exactly


If some Newbie reading this thread misapplies his budget to stupid choices because of the OP's "bold" (but untrue statements), there certainly very well might be harm.
"If some newbie reading this thread misapplies his budget" Really? Reading the OP that sounds like exactly what happened to him. If he really bought, and tried all of the gear that he states he did, he dropped some serious dough. Don't tell me that you've never seen a post here where someone says you can't get good recordings with this pre, or that compressor, because it's not professional grade. Or if you don't spend this much money on this piece of gear, you're not a "Pro". I'll challenge this all day long. The original poster sounds like he dropped a sh*t ton of money chasing "the sound", then realized "the sound" really boiled down to his abilities.

Where in the OP is he telling anyone that they to spend a ton of money to obtain a great outcome? He sounds remorseful that he spent all that money to realize just to realize that the issue was himself. He just didn't do a great job articulating that.
Old 30th March 2018
  #94
One man's magic converter is another man's Behringer ADa8200

If someone posts a thread asking for headphone recommendations...there will be 500 replies...and 500 different recommendations.

Old 30th March 2018
  #95
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by liv4ree View Post
"If some newbie reading this thread misapplies his budget" Really? Reading the OP that sounds like exactly what happened to him. If he really bought, and tried all of the gear that he states he did, he dropped some serious dough. Don't tell me that you've never seen a post here where someone says you can't get good recordings with this pre, or that compressor, because it's not professional grade. Or if you don't spend this much money on this piece of gear, you're not a "Pro". I'll challenge this all day long. The original poster sounds like he dropped a sh*t ton of money chasing "the sound", then realized "the sound" really boiled down to his abilities.

Where in the OP is he telling anyone that they to spend a ton of money to obtain a great outcome? He sounds remorseful that he spent all that money to realize just to realize that the issue was himself. He just didn't do a great job articulating that.
WHAT? You must be kidding.
Old 30th March 2018
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hello people View Post
One man's magic converter is another man's Behringer ADa8200

If someone posts a thread asking for headphone recommendations...there will be 500 replies...and 500 different recommendations.

I think for all intents and purposes, George Martin/The Beatles could have made Sgt Pepper's on an ADA8200; likewise Dr Dre could have made Straight Outta Compton, or Brian Wilson Pet Sounds with one...

that said, given the plethora of choices available, ain't nothing wrong with people trying to get what they perceive to be better.

There are qualitative differences in converters, though not to the degree espoused by the OP. That sort of thinking is foolish at best. In the end, the most important thing is content, of which the most important determinant is talent and ability, and given the relatively small differences in gear these days, not the specific tools per se.
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Old 30th March 2018
  #97
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
I think for all intents and purposes, George Martin/The Beatles could have made Sgt Pepper's on an ADA8200; likewise Dr Dre could have made Straight Outta Compton, or Brian Wilson Pet Sounds with one...

that said, given the plethora of choices available, ain't nothing wrong with people trying to get what they perceive to be better.

There are qualitative differences in converters, though not to the degree espoused by the OP. That sort of thinking is foolish at best. In the end, the most important thing is content, of which the most important determinant is talent and ability, and given the relatively small differences in gear these days, not the specific tools per se.
I couldn't agree more 12T

Old 30th March 2018
  #98
Gear Guru
Look true pros evolve into gear. For someone new to tell them that it's all about conversion is only a step above telling them it's all about cabling. Bad info. Guys, to really appreciate great gear and use it properly, you have to be able to hear the difference. You also need to be able to have a sound in your head and use gear to get there faster. Then it is worth the money.

I'm all for buying great gear since it is something you can not take too much of a bath on reselling. For someone starting out, get a great mic and preamp. Converters are pretty good these days and a UA Apogee, Audient, or Tascam unit should be a fantastic starting point. Hell even lower cost ones will get you there.
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Old 30th March 2018
  #99
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everybody just calm the funk down... seriously .. the true explanation is he was hearing a type of clarity for the first time in 4 years that he was not accustomed to, and the trial and error over that time added to his craft, thus it explains why he had a eureka moment ..we all know that it just makes his perception change to a different position, maybe a more clear path to the finish line.. less this, less that.. feels better.. hits harder..I can say that when I went from using my apollo silver converters to apogee AD16X converters, I had a THANK GOD reaction to the image..I could never figure out why everything was so granny and cymbals always sounded swishey until I switched..I was under the impression that the Apolo was the s#^t when it came out, then quickly realised it wasnt.. so yea, converters are a good start ,but your room,and pre's and mic placement are also "YUGE" there is no silver bullet ..and this is a game of inches ...
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Old 30th March 2018
  #100
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monkeyxx's Avatar
Well there is a Silver Bullet but that's in a different thread...
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Old 30th March 2018
  #101
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monkeyxx's Avatar
By the way Apollo conversion is great.
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Old 30th March 2018
  #102
Some people have a different perspective on "great" .... personally I think they sound mediocre and grainy.... Even the Benchmark sounds grainy and swishy compared to the Sparrow converters.

Just my 2 cts.
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Old 30th March 2018
  #103
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_A_P View Post
Sorry the Beatles gear was **** for its day so your gear abetical order is wrong. 4 tracks are for amateurs. Bouncing to a second 4 track? Think of the fidelity you’re losing with each generation.
Oh, my goodness. Do tell!
Old 30th March 2018
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cozmik Prod. View Post
personally I think they sound mediocre and grainy....
Even if this were true, we're talking about sonic characteristics that are so subtle as to border on inaudible in some cases.

The notion that the Apollo's conversion would preclude pro-level recordings is ludicrous.

Of course there are better ADCs out there. I would love to move up to Apogee, Lavry, or even Burl when budget allows. But this doesn't make the Apollo any less capable of producing great recordings. Its track record speaks for itself.
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Old 30th March 2018
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liv4ree View Post
Where in the OP is he telling anyone that they to spend a ton of money to obtain a great outcome?
I said the 'advice' puts the newbie in danger of "misapplying" his budget. For example, to put a large proportion of his money into high-end converters at the expense of more critical immediate needs.

Spending a "ton of money" on things is not the issue
The issue, IMO, is that he is "helpfully" directing newbies to the wrong things

"Buying a new car? Take it from me, I am an expert, the most important thing in buying a new car is to get one with a good radio."


Quote:
He sounds remorseful that he spent all that money to realize just to realize that the issue was himself. He just didn't do a great job articulating that.
Well, sorry - my reading is that he realized the issue was his converters. If he ever said it was "himself", he did such a poor job of articulating that, that I missed it. I have seen posts from other people who have been saying it's 'himself'. But as I see it, the thrust of his premise is that the Apollo was what was holding him back.
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Old 30th March 2018
  #106
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkaitkai View Post
Its track record speaks for itself.
No it does not, a commercial succes says nothing about quality, it simply has a good feature set for a decent price and it's marketing campaign was well done, that's about it.

"You get what you ask for"

Instead of people demanding proper payment for what they do, people ask for cheaper stuff....


...


uʍop ǝpᴉsdn sᴉ plɹoʍ sᴉɥʇ
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Old 30th March 2018
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cozmik Prod. View Post
No it does not, a commercial succes says nothing about quality, it simply has a good feature set for a decent price and it's marketing campaign was well done, that's about it.
I could be wrong, but I believe tkaitkai was talking about the "track record" of some of the songs recorded on the Apollo.

Their commercial success is precisely relevant the to thread, since the thread premise was that the Apollo conversion was the thing that was holding the OP back.

It did not seem to hold back Kendrick Lamar, Coldplay, John Legend the Black Keys or Brad Paisley to name a few.

You can argue all day about your taste and what you consider the best 'quality' conversion. But the issue of the thread seems to be whether or not the conversion is the 'deal-breaker'. Whether or not it is the one thing that is holding you back. To make that point, you will need a lot more than your personal taste.
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Old 30th March 2018
  #108
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cozmik Prod. View Post
Some people have a different perspective on "great" .... personally I think they sound mediocre and grainy.... Even the Benchmark sounds grainy and swishy compared to the Sparrow converters.

Just my 2 cts.
Grainy .... really on an UA Apollo!

Recording a single vocal line with my Crane Song HEDD 192 or my RME Multiface MK1 which was £500 for 8 channels 15 years ago!

.... well I'm hard pressed to pick it in a double blind ABX.

Sure the HEDD 192 wins out on the stereo mix bus and mastering duties and stereo recording where spacial information is critical, but if the RME Multiface from 15 years ago doesn't sound "grainy" I'm just not buying that a modern UA Apollo sounds "grainy" .... "grainy" is a very strong term in the world of audio.
Old 30th March 2018
  #109
Yeah and some people drink urine in the morning, it works for them....

I rather have a fresh fruit smoothie.

I think it's a non-argument, what works for who and how 'succesfull' they are... I don't care.
Old 30th March 2018
  #110
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
Grainy .... really on an UA Apollo!

Recording a single vocal line with my Crane Song HEDD 192 or my RME Multiface MK1 which was £500 for 8 channels 15 years ago!

.... well I'm hard pressed to pick it in a double blind ABX.

Sure the HEDD 192 wins out on the stereo mix bus and mastering duties and stereo recording where spacial information is critical, but if the RME Multiface from 15 years ago doesn't sound "grainy" I'm just not buying that a modern UA Apollo sounds "grainy" .... "grainy" is a very strong term in the world of audio.
Short anekdote.

A good friend of mine sayd the same thing you did, now, he's an electronics designer and he designs DA's and amps for high end brands.
He never understood what I was talking about when mentioning grain as a byproduct of digital conversion.
So I put my Sparrow DAC in his workshop and left it there for a week.

One week later when I picked it up he stated "now you have ruined it for me" I hear the grain now, it's everywhere...

His designs got a lot better though
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Old 30th March 2018
  #111
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cozmik Prod. View Post
Yeah and some people drink urine in the morning.
Crikey.
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Old 30th March 2018
  #112
I think the grain is not due to the digital domain, every AD or DA has an analog front end, my guess is the 'problem' sits there... there's only so many DAC chips and these things are everywhere...

The same grain is also present in a lot of analog stuff, a lot.
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Old 30th March 2018
  #113
Here for the gear
 

I think the problem here is one of scope. Are you thinking in an entirely insular manner? Then of course conversion makes a huge difference. It affects absolutely every decision made on every track, just like monitors. Doesn't matter if you're making jazz, hip-hop, electronica, doesn't matter if you're using 20 different VI's or $20,000 microphones. In that regard, OP is correct. Save up and buy the best you can as early as possible if you're serious about the business of audio engineering.

What many others are trying to say, and rightly so, is that our collective obsession with gear and audio fidelity is nothing more than a footnote in the history of music. Most listeners are far more concerned with the artistic content of the recording, not the methodology behind its creation. We are slaves to those who actually make art. The wiser people here realize this. I've highly enjoyed reading this thread because it always tickles me when people are faced with this reality and get defensive.
Old 30th March 2018
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
I could be wrong, but I believe tkaitkai was talking about the "track record" of some of the songs recorded on the Apollo.

Their commercial success is precisely relevant the to thread, since the thread premise was that the Apollo conversion was the thing that was holding the OP back.
Yep, this is exactly what I was referring to.

Is the Apollo my absolute favorite piece of gear? No. I prefer my Burl B1 to any of the Unison preamps. I find the Twin's I/O to be kind of limiting. The plugins (as awesome as they are) don't quite hold up to the hardware I've tested them against — I prefer my Harrison 32EQ and WA76 over the UAD equivalents.

And I'm sure, with time, I'll find something else that I prefer in the way of AD/DA.

But none of this supports the claim that the Apollo is incapable of yielding pro-level results. It absolutely is. This is quite evident with even just a cursory glance at the Apollo's track record.

Now, whether or not those "pro-level results" match YOUR taste is a completely different matter. But there's just no proof whatsoever that it is specifically the Apollo's A/D which is responsible for subpar recordings.
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Old 30th March 2018
  #115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cozmik Prod. View Post
Some people have a different perspective on "great" .... personally I think they sound mediocre and grainy.... Even the Benchmark sounds grainy and swishy compared to the Sparrow converters.

Just my 2 cts.
You’re entitled to your opinion of course.

The OP assures us no one can get a professional sound with one, and that no-one is using one professionally.

As I’ve repeatedly stated, that’s very much not the case. So it DOES boil down to abilities. I wouldn’t be surprised if many of his reference tracks were recorded on apollo twins and the like.
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Old 30th March 2018
  #116
What is "a proffesional sound" ? ...most CD's do not sound great to me, some are even horrible, unlistenable for me, while millions of copies have been sold of that album...

Few are exeptionally good to my taste.
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Old 30th March 2018
  #117
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monkeyxx's Avatar
It's always good to be excessively picky
Old 30th March 2018
  #118
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tkaitkai's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cozmik Prod. View Post
What is "a proffesional sound" ? ...most CD's do not sound great to me, some are even horrible, unlistenable for me, while millions of copies have been sold of that album...

Few are exeptionally good to my taste.
OK, that's your taste.

I happen to like a lot of commercially successful pop and rock. I think it sounds awesome, and I think most of it is of exceptional quality.

Which one of us is right?
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Old 30th March 2018
  #119
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ponzi's Avatar
Listening to this album, I can really hear the grain....

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Old 30th March 2018
  #120
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkaitkai View Post
OK, that's your taste.

I happen to like a lot of commercially successful pop and rock. I think it sounds awesome, and I think most of it is of exceptional quality.

Which one of us is right?


Wrong question...

We're both right and wrong, life is a paradox.
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