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Warm WA73EQ vs. Heritage Audio HA73EQ
Old 14th November 2018
  #121
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ProgFree's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoepedals View Post
IMaking a preamp/eq today with no expense spared would yield an entirely different product that is nothing like a 1073 if that were the design goal Neve was starting with.
An exaggerated exaggeration
Old 14th November 2018
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoepedals View Post
Making a preamp/eq today with no expense spared would yield an entirely different product that is nothing like a 1073 if that were the design goal Neve was starting with.
Agreed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by shoepedals View Post
The cost of different parts also changes over time. It becomes easier to make certain things and the cost comes down. So, what would be the most expensive components back when the 1073 first came out might not really be as expensive today.
The most expensive part of those old Neve pres are the Marinair transformers, and these transformers are not available today (aside from used) because the process used to manufacture them is toxic to the environment. Sure, we can get less expensive transformers today, but they don't sound the same (nor do the expensive transformers of today).
Old 14th November 2018
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedtan View Post
Agreed.




The most expensive part of those old Neve pres are the Marinair transformers, and these transformers are not available today (aside from used) because the process used to manufacture them is toxic to the environment. Sure, we can get less expensive transformers today, but they don't sound the same (nor do the expensive transformers of today).
Right, this is kind of what I'm getting at. The transformers that are closest to the old ones today might not be the top end transformers of today. It's sometimes the case that what is closest in performance to a device used in older electronics is now a lower end part because the tech has advanced. This happens all the time with capacitors or transistors I am selecting for fuzz pedal use. I have tried making some pedals with the best of the best caps and they will sometimes sound awful because the "low end" caps are actually beneficial to the design because of less than ideal frequency response. The same can be true of transformers.
Old 3rd May 2019
  #124
How do both of these (the Warm 73 and the Heritage 73 Elite) compare to the Vintech X73i? I know it approaches twice the cost factoring in a PSU...but...any thoughts?
Old 7th May 2019
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hello people View Post
How do both of these (the Warm 73 and the Heritage 73 Elite) compare to the Vintech X73i? I know it approaches twice the cost factoring in a PSU...but...any thoughts?
In use I found the Heritage to be comparable to the Vintech x73i (and also the new NEVE 1073N). Although the Warm pre was nice I did not feel that the eq on the Warm measured up to the eq of either those three or the original issue 1073 and got rid of the Warm.
Old 7th May 2019
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoepedals View Post
So, I did an interesting test with my Heritage unit. I had read on another forum that someone thought the power supply was a little bit under-rated for the unit and figured I would try out a few different power supplies with the exact same source material.
I'm glad you did this test with the nulling. I also heard the same effect with the Neve 1073N, which uses a similar line lump switching supply. Sounded smoother with the power supply I use with my old 1073s.
Old 8th May 2019
  #127
Warm audio is a generic chinese manufacturer. you could order 100 units+ and write your name on it.. George Audio, Jules Audio, fantastic audio. IT uses cheap components and is in my opinion not more then a marketing bubble. The preamps work, the mics work ,you can use them to record something.

Heritage audio is spanish manufacturer which uses higher grade components and their own design. The guy used to fix Neve for 20 years and is fun talking to. He knows his **** as Americans say.

I tested both (preamps). Heritage delivers character, Warmaudio amplifies. Warm gets crappy at higher gain settings (distorition in an unpleasent way, like Mackie, Behringer etc.), Heritage delivers character.

if you are on a budget I would recommend Lindell stuff (also produced in China but uses a bit more of a sophisticaed design) and IGS Audio (made in Poland). Igor is a nice guy as well and in the game for several years.

there is always TK audio who totall into red wine and maybe the most underrated manufacturer in the history of proaudio. He has a "budget" line and a more expensive NEVEish line. worth checking out.

my 2 cents.
Old 8th May 2019
  #128
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfic View Post
In use I found the Heritage to be comparable to the Vintech x73i (and also the new NEVE 1073N). Although the Warm pre was nice I did not feel that the eq on the Warm measured up to the eq of either those three or the original issue 1073 and got rid of the Warm.
Thanks for that. In the end I went for the Daking Mic/Pre/Eq.

Old 4 weeks ago
  #129
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Ok, so is this what people are using for best results on the heritage as a replacement power supply?: "Leader Electronics" was the brand. Nothing special. It's just a regular 48vdc wall wart that I got on eBay. I'm sure there are better ones out there." I'm fuzzy on what to look for electronically, so unless someone can explain it, lemme know what's worked best for people.

I recently got the heritage HA-73eq, and want to see how it sounds with a better power supply. So far it's good, but my socks aren't knocked off, the mids have a 'honk' to them that I can't imagine is quite traditional for a classic neve, though I haven't used one myself. That's why I'm curious about the psu.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #130
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monkeyxx's Avatar
A PSU upgrade is a pretty subtle thing, it's not going to fix a "honk" in the mids.

You might notice a slight increase in bass width, and crispness of transient information.

At least those are some tiny things I think I heard when messing with this type of upgrade. Not in the Heritage gear but in general.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
A PSU upgrade is a pretty subtle thing, it's not going to fix a "honk" in the mids.

You might notice a slight increase in bass width, and crispness of transient information.

At least those are some tiny things I think I heard when messing with this type of upgrade. Not in the Heritage gear but in general.
Well, sorta. In my test it really changed the clipping characteristics a lot and made the Heritage sound a lot less harsh in the high end as a result. It didn't seem too subtle for this particular unit. I think for a lot of other situations you're probably right though.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #132
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monkeyxx's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoepedals View Post
Well, sorta. In my test it really changed the clipping characteristics a lot and made the Heritage sound a lot less harsh in the high end as a result. It didn't seem too subtle for this particular unit. I think for a lot of other situations you're probably right though.
Well there you have it!

My only experience with PSU upgrades have been DACs, guitar effects, and 500 series racks.

It's cool that you have a specific answer for this its the kind of info that makes gearslutz valuable.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
Well there you have it!

My only experience with PSU upgrades have been DACs, guitar effects, and 500 series racks.

It's cool that you have a specific answer for this its the kind of info that makes gearslutz valuable.
Yeah, it really varies by the design of the PSU and the device as well.

Like in the example of pedals, something that depends on transistor bias points to generate its sound (like a traditional or oscillating fuzz, for example) can sound very different with different supplies, especially if the voltage the supply puts out is a little bit (or a lot) different. I build pedals and was testing out three of the same fuzz model back to back one day using my voodoolabs supply and was hearing that one of them sounded slightly darker. It was fine, but just a little different. So out of curiosity I tested the different taps on the supply and the darker one was actually just outputting like 0.2 volts less than the other two. I measured a 4th tap to be exactly the same as tap 1 and 3 and swapped the pedal to that one. They sounded pretty much identical after the swap.

But then if you did that same thing with like a tubescreamer or something else op amp based (or something with an internal charge pump like a klon) I highly doubt you'd hear any difference whatsoever. It's all about the interaction of the 2.

Similarly important, when I was first starting out making pedals, I built a few without an internal power filter to see what would happen (in theory, if you were using a regulated supply it should be redundant). Using nearly every switching supply, such as a one spot, sounded absolutely terrible. Transistors as used in pedals don't usually draw enough current to stabilize most switching supplies (which are often designed more for high current digital pedals) and, as a result, you get a horrible whine through the power supply if you use them without sufficient power filtering. So...I included a nice beefy power filter instead and that problem went away.

One other interesting example is old Vox amps. Those were designed typically with a very weak power filter. They hum more than a lot of amps because of this. However, this also has a huge impact on the breakup characteristics of the amp and results in the classic Vox "growl" because you start to introduce a little bit of intermodulation distortion from the supply ripple when you push the amp into overdrive and the supply voltage sags. So when I had my friend make me an AC30 clone, he kept the hum/filtering to maintain that effect.

It's all about the interaction of the two devices, really.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #134
Gear Guru
 
monkeyxx's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoepedals View Post
Yeah, it really varies by the design of the PSU and the device as well.

Like in the example of pedals, something that depends on transistor bias points to generate its sound (like a traditional or oscillating fuzz, for example) can sound very different with different supplies, especially if the voltage the supply puts out is a little bit (or a lot) different. I build pedals and was testing out three of the same fuzz model back to back one day using my voodoolabs supply and was hearing that one of them sounded slightly darker. It was fine, but just a little different. So out of curiosity I tested the different taps on the supply and the darker one was actually just outputting like 0.2 volts less than the other two. I measured a 4th tap to be exactly the same as tap 1 and 3 and swapped the pedal to that one. They sounded pretty much identical after the swap.

But then if you did that same thing with like a tubescreamer or something else op amp based (or something with an internal charge pump like a klon) I highly doubt you'd hear any difference whatsoever. It's all about the interaction of the 2.

Similarly important, when I was first starting out making pedals, I built a few without an internal power filter to see what would happen (in theory, if you were using a regulated supply it should be redundant). Using nearly every switching supply, such as a one spot, sounded absolutely terrible. Transistors as used in pedals don't usually draw enough current to stabilize most switching supplies (which are often designed more for high current digital pedals) and, as a result, you get a horrible whine through the power supply if you use them without sufficient power filtering. So...I included a nice beefy power filter instead and that problem went away.

One other interesting example is old Vox amps. Those were designed typically with a very weak power filter. They hum more than a lot of amps because of this. However, this also has a huge impact on the breakup characteristics of the amp and results in the classic Vox "growl" because you start to introduce a little bit of intermodulation distortion from the supply ripple when you push the amp into overdrive and the supply voltage sags. So when I had my friend make me an AC30 clone, he kept the hum/filtering to maintain that effect.

It's all about the interaction of the two devices, really.
I got psu "WHINE" on my digital delay I designed when I tried to use a charge pump... still haven't gone back and solved that. Running at 18V was helping the clarity of the delay circuit.

Fuzz pedals are interesting like you say. When I put a filter cap in a Harmonic Percolator it actually got noisier! So I had to take it out.

my solid state fuzz face uses no filtering and it just is what it is, wild and hairy. Noise is not really an issue but I'm using nice PSUs and batteries.

I just got an AC30HW a couple months ago. I'm glad you made the comment about the power supply. I was noticing a bit of "HUM" but now I don't feel so bad since as you explained it's part of getting the tone.
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