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what's the purpose of a summing mixer Summing Mixers
Old 6th May 2018
  #91
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cjogo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
That’s not “summing” in the context here. It’s not analogue - it’s still ITB, you just have a slightly different box.

Let’s keep the terms clear!
Sorry about that -- guess I have never mixed without a board > but yes, this is a digital board ITB -- We mix through the 48 channel faders continuing through analog gear >> to a 2 channel DAW in the PC . for rendering

Last edited by cjogo; 6th May 2018 at 05:02 PM..
Old 6th May 2018
  #92
Gear Maniac
i have neve 8816 and using it in every circumstances , it seperates the signal and gives tastefull thickness to it and little bit analog flavor too , basicly it makes mixes better )
Old 6th May 2018
  #93
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by yep View Post
I think it's a mistake to look at it this way.

You don't need analog summing to make a great mix. Tchad Blake mixes 100% in the box, and if your mixes are 5% better than his, I don't think it's because of of analog summing.

Analog is not better than digital, it's different. It's like salt versus saffron versus maple syrup. The more expensive seasoning is not necessarily better, nor more useful.

Most of us have to work in world of practical constraints and compromises. Budgets, space, time, etc. But it is great to hear from those who can work without compromise, and to see how they do things.

The two don't have to be, and should not be, opposed. If you work in a restaurant where the surf and turf is lobster claws over filet mignon, and if I work in a place where it's shrimp over sirloin, then we can often both learn from each other how to deliver better results. Cooking techniques exist independent from ingredients, and some people make ****ty recordings with very expensive equipment, and others make great records with very little.

The very best records usually come from the most-talented people using the best equipment, but it's not a perfect formula.
While most everyone else in here focuses on arguing a side, or works to form cliques to justify their personal beliefs...You're the only one here focused on the important points. And no one wants to hear it.

These arguments have been going on for decades now and we're no closer to getting an answer one way or another.

Digital has been around long enough, and has been the format and method for enough brilliant works of art that to continue to try and denigrate it as a lesser format is just silly. Analog...already proven. It's no better and no worse.

We might as well also argue over Film vs. digital photography. Impressionism vs. realism in painting. Film Noir vs. Dark Comedy in film.
Old 7th May 2018
  #94
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizzmo0815 View Post
While most everyone else in here focuses on arguing a side, or works to form cliques to justify their personal beliefs...You're the only one here focused on the important points. And no one wants to hear it.

These arguments have been going on for decades now and we're no closer to getting an answer one way or another.

Digital has been around long enough, and has been the format and method for enough brilliant works of art that to continue to try and denigrate it as a lesser format is just silly. Analog...already proven. It's no better and no worse.

We might as well also argue over Film vs. digital photography. Impressionism vs. realism in painting. Film Noir vs. Dark Comedy in film.
Actually, the answer has been there all along, from the beginning of the discussion. It's 'use whatever works to get done what you need to get done'. Many here are not arguing whether one is 'better' than another in any objective way, as that is silly anyhow. But to say there are no differences that work out as one or the other being more useful to someone, depending on what they are trying to achieve, is equally silly.

The thread was called 'what's the purpose....' with the OP asking basically what pros he would gain by using one. That is entirely separate to arguing whether YOU need one or not. Or what is 'better', which is completely subjective.
Old 7th May 2018
  #95
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Actually, the answer has been there all along, from the beginning of the discussion. It's 'use whatever works to get done what you need to get done'. Many here are not arguing whether one is 'better' than another in any objective way, as that is silly anyhow. But to say there are no differences that work out as one or the other being more useful to someone, depending on what they are trying to achieve, is equally silly.

The thread was called 'what's the purpose....' with the OP asking basically what pros he would gain by using one. That is entirely separate to arguing whether YOU need one or not. Or what is 'better', which is completely subjective.
I agree with you. But that is not where this conversation led. There are some that are sticking to the OP's question. But not many.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #96
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Syson View Post
Hi
It is probably a different mindset that makes some difference. The hardware might 'add' a few percent in terms of 'sound' but using a 'real' mixer is like playing a keyboard, you can do it blindfolded. There are restrictions in that you don't necessarily have a massive toolbox of plugins so you are more likely to use the channels as they are. Using a computer screen requires you to focus carefully on what you are altering, distracting you from listening to the sound you are adjusting.
Matt S
Spot on. You can just get on with the job on a mixer and it's all laid out in front of you instead of scrolling and losing contact with the job you're really trying to do.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #97
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey MTC View Post
Analog summing is DISTORTION ........ beautiful, desirable distortion.

Why would you want transparent summing? Transparent means invisible or no change. If you were going to drop big cash on one of these, you want to hear a difference!

All the cliches, "depth", "width", etc are more than likely very subtle phase shifts. These often sound great to us, but make no mistake, they're distortions from the original signal.

My personal bug bear with the summing box debate has always been the implication that they're fixing imperfections with digital when the reality is they're skewing the (sometimes undesirable) accuracy of digital.
This makes total sense of course, but can't you do the same thing by running a digital stereo bus out through a pair of nice analog preamps and achieve a similar result without needing another piece of gear?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #98
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoepedals View Post
This makes total sense of course, but can't you do the same thing by running a digital stereo bus out through a pair of nice analog preamps and achieve a similar result without needing another piece of gear?
Some would say yes (that's the concept behind @drBill's Silver Bullet for example).
Old 4 weeks ago
  #99
Lives for gear
In direct response the starting post.

Besides merging the track in analog world where harmonics blend at the speed of light (electricity) vs. at a sample rate. The real advantage is being able to use analog gear on the way in/out of the summer. EQ's, compressors, efffects, etc.

The possible quality bar goes up with the new options. But so the cost in equipment, time, loss of easy recall, etc.

basically a mixer without EQ and Aux sends. Often without pan or levels.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #100
Lives for gear
 

Hi
The analog 'summing' at it's heart is a bunch of resistors. The commonly used resistors will give a flat frequency response with practically no phase shift from DC to at least a few MHz. Distortion will also be very low but if you were inclined you can assemble the summing using lower distortion resistors (multiplying the cost by a factor of at least 20). As summing will ALWAYS 'lose signal level' an amplifier following the summing is needed. There are merits and disadvantages to treating this either as a 'voltage summing' or 'current summing' system. The distortion by any amplifier will be a lot greater than summing resistor distortion, making expensive resistors a moot point.
Digital summing, while not at the speed of electricity is not actually 'slower ad it is performed at the sample rate, or more accurately, the sample rate determines the response of the signals going in and out but the summing itself it totally transparent. The actual time necessary to do the calculations is part of the latency.
All of the incoming signals 'wait' while the processor calculates, then spits the results out (latency time) later.
In a response to the OP as to why you would use analog summing, if you wish to use a bunch of hardware outboard gear it can be a convenient way to hook the gear together without having to use a lot of extra convertor channels.
Matt S
Old 4 weeks ago
  #101
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoepedals View Post
... can't you do the same thing by running a digital stereo bus out through a pair of nice analog preamps and achieve a similar result without needing another piece of gear?
Depends. Most "nice" analog preamps or other gain-type devices won't do much in that sort of situation. The ones that will are the dual-stage ones, where you can push the first stage into saturation while you use the second stage to bring the level back down to ADC-friendly territory. You can also do it, either straight through or in parallel, with a single gain stage plus passive transformers and trimmers, as I mentioned earlier.

Last edited by Brent Hahn; 4 weeks ago at 06:37 PM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #102
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Syson View Post
Hi
The analog 'summing' at it's heart is a bunch of resistors. The commonly used resistors will give a flat frequency response with practically no phase shift from DC to at least a few MHz. Distortion will also be very low but if you were inclined you can assemble the summing using lower distortion resistors (multiplying the cost by a factor of at least 20). As summing will ALWAYS 'lose signal level' an amplifier following the summing is needed. There are merits and disadvantages to treating this either as a 'voltage summing' or 'current summing' system. The distortion by any amplifier will be a lot greater than summing resistor distortion, making expensive resistors a moot point.
Digital summing, while not at the speed of electricity is not actually 'slower ad it is performed at the sample rate, or more accurately, the sample rate determines the response of the signals going in and out but the summing itself it totally transparent. The actual time necessary to do the calculations is part of the latency.
All of the incoming signals 'wait' while the processor calculates, then spits the results out (latency time) later.
In a response to the OP as to why you would use analog summing, if you wish to use a bunch of hardware outboard gear it can be a convenient way to hook the gear together without having to use a lot of extra convertor channels.
Matt S
What would these more expensive low distortion resistors you mention be? I'm curious because typically metal film resistors have very low distortion and they are also usually cheaper than carbon comp resistors (which people like because they do exhibit some degree of distortion if you are running at higher voltages such as in a tube amplifier).
Old 4 weeks ago
  #103
Lives for gear
 

Hi
Bulk foil or whatever. Jim Williams extols the virtue of these. Of course it is only worth considering using them for summing if the following amplifier also uses them, and probably the ADC and then of course all your other gear.
You have to decide where you put your line.
I am not ridiculing the idea but at some point other factors take over.
Matt S
Old 4 weeks ago
  #104
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Syson View Post
Hi
Bulk foil or whatever. Jim Williams extols the virtue of these. Of course it is only worth considering using them for summing if the following amplifier also uses them, and probably the ADC and then of course all your other gear.
You have to decide where you put your line.
I am not ridiculing the idea but at some point other factors take over.
Matt S
Ah ok. Yeah Vishay makes some very expensive bulk metal foil resistors. In reality, though, general metal film resistors should be totally fine for this application. They cost pennies each, typically.
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